Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Akonyl]

However that'd give SOers even less power than previously, if you changed SO to be slightly better to compensate though, it's probably be a good idea .

I don't really see how much worse it'd make SOers, considering CEslander didn't even exist until last round and slanders could be faked anyway, not to mention a SO doesn't differentiate between CEslander and InterroSlander, so you don't know which actually happened

[Kleene Onigiri]

Dunno why you wanna make CEslander "past" wise D:
Since it's affecting the current CE, like slander affects the current interrogations too O.o"

@Uehara:
The lovers part can be solved when Uehara can't ba choosen as a lover
But otherwise, how often is a towny stating his/her role in the thread? Even if Uehara successfully manages to do it, the town won't know if ti was uehara, and also the victim won't know uehara saved him/her. BO can always trick the town still.
And it only works if the one is aptxed or lynched. Which makes the overall success rate low anyway.
And it's not given that the towny will be saved by Kazuha next time. Or that the town believes that the one is really town D:

[Akonyl]

Dunno why you wanna make CEslander "past" wise D:
Since it's affecting the current CE, like slander affects the current interrogations too O.o"

You can't really just say that InterroSlander and CESlander should work the same because they're both slanders, though. One is a slander for something that never changes, while one is a slander for something that does change throughout the course of the game, so at some level they're different anyway.

The fact that slander affects current investigations doesn't matter because it would have the same affect if it slandered the previous night (and interrogations interrogated that same previous night), because the "natural/unslandered" interrogation result of a role never changes throughout a game.

I just don't like the current way it is because if the BO goes "oh hey, I heard Eri's gonna CE tonight, CEslander Akonyl(Vermouth)!", they can do that and have it be successful (because it slanders the current night's results), but if Eri's in an alliance and they say "hmm, I think Kleene might kill tonight, I know they haven't done crimes yet but I'm expecting Kleene to kill" or any other situation where Eri comes across information that says "Player X may perform a first crime tonight", she can't actually check that until the next night phase, because if she CEs on that night she'll still get a False result.

Eri's information is always 1 night phase old, while the BO doesn't have a similar situation of having to slander one day in advance with CEslander. This is something they had to do when Frame was the only method to "slander" CEs, and CEslander was made in case Anokata wasn't in the game so that the BO still had some protection against CEs. I don't think it should be better than Frame in some situations when it was just something tacked on to Gin in case Anokata wasn't around.

The lovers part can be solved when Uehara can't ba choosen as a lover
But otherwise, how often is a towny stating his/her role in the thread? Even if Uehara successfully manages to do it, the town won't know if ti was uehara, and also the victim won't know uehara saved him/her. BO can always trick the town still.
And it only works if the one is aptxed or lynched. Which makes the overall success rate low anyway.
And it's not given that the towny will be saved by Kazuha next time. Or that the town believes that the one is really town D:

And while it's true that the town won't know for a fact that it's Uehara, when the votes pop up and nobody's lynched after everyone said "lynch X", it's not very likely that a protector did it

and nobody states their role in the thread because there wasn't a reason to do so in the thread before Uehara. If I'm up on the chopping block and say "I'm araide, don't kill me", people will just lynch me anyway under the pretense of "he's just trying to stall a phase while we "prove" him", so there's no reason to say that. But if I know Uehara's in the game, I have plenty of reason to state my role in the thread because then Uehara (who surely isn't using Safeguard on anyone else and thus has no reason not to Safeguard me as Araide) may very well safeguard me, saving me for the phase. And after that phase, when I'm going to be poisoned the next day because I stated my role anyway, in the case that the town doesn't have any new leads (as was the case in this game basically every phase), they can just lynch me instead. It's not a stretch to say this could happen multiple times a game, and considering people already thought Voice of Reason was chipping into the lynchings a far amount, being able to nullify them even more that effortlessly is a bit much imo.

Keep in mind that this change wouldn't affect Uehara the way you played her this round, as Eve never mentioned that she was Eisuke to anyone except for you so you could just have Safeguard(Lynching)ed her and have it be just as effective. The only time that splitting Safeguard into two abilities would matter is when someone's going to get lynched while the BO knows their identity and is about to poison them, which doesn't happen often aside from the case where someone says their role in the thread to avoid being lynched, which I feel would happen much more often if Uehara stays as she is now. Sort of like how when Mafia first started, people didn't just blurt out their roles right at the start, but then when people realized that was a good idea, it's pretty much what everyone did until APTX came in to discourage it.

[Kleene Onigiri]

But splitting it would affect Uehara, if she doesn't know if the person she knows/guesses will get lynched (random lynching) or APTXed by the BO. Which will be more often then other cases.
Better than splitting it then, you can just use it on a person once successfully would be better. Since people wouldn't blurt out their role as a strategy (in case they also know kazuha and a protector etc.) Would also help with the lover problem better.
And as a reward, you know the identity as Uehara. So that's a good trade. (tho I didn't want to do it 1 time success, since it's more like Kazuha then)

[Akonyl]

I feel like the amount of times that Uehara would save someone from a random lynch with safeguard's pretty low, so having the ability stay in tact solely for those situations seems a bit weird because then she could just use Safeguard(APTX) anyway with almost no risk of the person she's safeguarded happening to get randomly lynched.

Also, only being able to use it on a person once each time doesn't wholly solve the problem, for cases like:
D1: "Hey, Akonyl's guilty, lynch him" "No don't lynch me, uh... I'm Araide!" *is saved by Uehara*
D2: "Well, looks like Akonyl wasn't guilty, but we have no leads... so since he's gonna be poisoned anyway, we can just lynch him today"
D3+4: could happen with another person
D5+6: another, etc

so for each pair of days, you could effectively have a VoR, depending on when leads come in.

Unless you mean "Uehara can only Safeguard once ever successfully", in which case I feel like that's a lot worse than the proposed split-up.

[KangarooGirl]

I honestly don't think splitting it is the answer. The BO would just APTX the player while Uehara uses Safeguard (Lynch), which kinda defeats the original purpose of the ability anyway, doesn't it?

As for using it as VoR, it means sacrificing a townie's role to the BO which is kind of like having that person lynched anyway.

I'm still working on a solution for it though...

@CE Slander: I don't think it should be made "past" wise. It is stronger than Frame in the sense that it affects the "now" action. But Frame is still superior because you can't arrest for someone who was CE Slandered, but you can investigate it and arrest for framed actions. For example, just a few rounds ago, Cheesus was arrested because he was blamed for a kill. CE Slander is totally dependent on a single role being in the game whereas with Frame, any investigator and special investigator can find it out. Not to mention framed kills will appear on deduction lists now as well. I think that's a good enough trade-off.

(also, I'm only dragging this topic back up because I'm starting to work on the rules for my round )

[Akonyl]

I honestly don't think splitting it is the answer. The BO would just APTX the player while Uehara uses Safeguard (Lynch), which kinda defeats the original purpose of the ability anyway, doesn't it?

you make it sound like every time a townie is lynched, the BO would know their identity and be able to APTX them, which I don't think is often the case.

that's only if the BO somehow knows the person's identity, through prior information unrelated to the lynch or the person shouting "I'm araide!" in the thread, the latter case in which I think the BO should be allowed to poison the person. In the case of PT's round, had we not happened to have the Spy result of "one of these people is Eisuke" and Kleene hinting to Stop that she may be Uehara (and us then investigating her and getting the correct result), we wouldn't have been able to poison either of them. It was lucky for us that we happened to have info on the correct people on D2, I don't think that would often be the case.

And that's true I suppose for CE Slander, I just feel that it's a bit weird that an ability that was added in as a "patch solution" for when Anokata isn't in the game is in some cases more useful than the original ability it was supposed to patch. Also, though it's less likely, what about a game where Ano+Gin both aren't in the game? The BO would be in the same position as before it was introduced, and people have stated that they see Gin as a bit powerful even before he got CESlander. Tbh, rather than making it past-wise or something, I would say it might be better to put frame or CESlander onto the Black Suitcase for games where Anokata isn't in, and remove it from Gin.

[KangarooGirl]

Yeah, hmm...For now, maybe I'll split it but make it so that they can use both but not on the same person. I think I'll also take away the restriction that she can't safeguard the same person twice in a row even if it's wrong/not necessary.

I was actually considering putting one regular slander into the BS. Mostly since the BO staying hidden without Gin is really hard especially once the town finds out there's no Gin (which is a lot more likely now it's not just Okiya with Detect). Yes, Calvados and Anokata could theoretically help but not regularly enough that the town would hesitate after getting an interrogation. I remember when I was Shinichi I think and I kept getting the BO down because someone had already announced that Gin wasn't in so I could almost 100% trust my interrogations as to who's town and who's not.

[Akonyl]

yeah, that's true. Although in that case, it seems like a bit much is being put into the BS at once, but that gives me an idea of basically remodeling the BS entirely into something like:

Black Suitcase:
- can be used to fake any one action
- Two abilities
- Abilities to choose from: Bribe, Investigate 4, Slander, Frame, CESlander,

*During Night 1, the leader of the BO (who holds the suitcase) can hand in their faked action and whichever Two(Three?) abilities they want along with it. After Night 1 (or whenever they're first used), these abilities are "locked in", and are the only abilities that can be done. Example: Gin(leader) has the BS on night 1, Fakes a stake-out on Akonyl, Uses Frame(From BS) on Hope, and Uses Slander(From BS) on PT, along with his own actual slanders. From then on, whoever has the BS can only Fake 1 action, Slander 1 and Frame 1. If either ability is not used on N1, they stay "unlocked" until they're first used.

although, it's up to you whether Bribe is listed as one of those abilities because it seems a bit steep to use up one of the "slots" the entire game for a 1-time-only shot. But anyway, this would help out by making it so that the BO could compensate for whichever area they felt needed strengthening without beefing up any one BO member themselves.

[KangarooGirl]

I was thinking more like

Black Suitcase:
-Investigate 4
-Slander 1 OR Fake one action OR Bribe

But that BS sounds like it could work too because that would allow the BO to use it however it would be most advantageous according to their roster.

[Akonyl]

either/or, it's your round anyway

although if you do go with mine, you might wanna think about moving bribe off the list and just have it as it is now on the BS or somethin.

[Yurikochan]

Sonoko:

After Sonoko's friend dies she earns the ability gossip.

Gossip: Can know one action from either BO or town at night. As to not be completely useless like me and Lynz. \o/

[pofa]

I think if we're going to let Sonoko do something after her friend dies, she should lose the ability to know who her friend's killer is. Having an ally + a "double" of that ally's power + something after the ally dies is pretty strong imo.

Also, can we take out the "Sonoko can befriend Vermouth" rule? XD Now that we have APTX, it just kind of sucks for Sonoko.

[Akonyl]

it might not be all that fun, but I don't think Sonoko needs new abilities to use after she's already 100% found out a BO.

if she did get something like gossip, I'd think she should be redesigned in some way rather than keeping all of her stuff. But pofa RM'd me :V

[Paix672]

I actually liked it the way it was in PT's round, she got to keep her ability but wouldn't get to know who the killer is. It's a lot safer for her and the BO, and doesn't make her useless.