Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Akonyl]

But there has to be an end to it at some point. Just because more powerful = more fun doesn't mean that actually making everyone more powerful would really lead to "more fun for everyone" game. Yeah sure, Shinichi with Investigate, Interrogate, Observe, Heal, Protect AND Reveal Culprit surely is more powerful than he is now (Ohh, and it can be justified easily, canon-wise)... but would it really be more fun to play that way? What if everyone was that way?
It would be horrible for the game.

IMO Megure, Shiratori and Nakamori are the most powerful roles in the game right now. Which is why I would really like to tone them down. Nakamori just seemed easiest. But you are right, we could use the chance to work on Shiratori and Megure as well. So: Instead of making them more equal to each other it would be much better to make them worse - make them more similar to the other police.
In the end it would mean more fun for everyone.

I'm not saying that the disparity in fun arises from how many actions you hand in, but rather how your role compares to others. If everyone had the same role, it'd be equally as fun for everyone, though the game itself would be pretty bland.

To liken us all to a bunch of toddlers: If you stick a bunch of toddlers in a room with toys to play with each other, they'll have fun. But when one kid finds out that the toy he was randomly given had a lollipop inside it, the other kids are gonna wonder why they had to get shafted with a toy that doesn't. Their situation hasn't become any less fortunate in reality, though, but now they're a bit annoyed and not having as much fun.

Not to mention that the argument of "well why don't we just give everyone everything then" seems like a slippery slope argument to me.

Then let's just not make Spying a crime anymore. If you can't be arrested for it there is even less need to make it able to investigate. I prefer the idea of some actions not being able to be investigated. (In my case: Actions which lack a target - like Betray (which despite its name is no crime as well), Deduce or Spy.)

I don't have much of a problem with it not being a crime, as it helps the situation I posted above you with arresting Okiya for it. :V

Also on the topic of Okiya: I feel sort of bad for him, being a suspiciously smelly townie with abilities that admittedly aren't too hot (detect vs yusaku's interrogate), not to mention that once he deduces, he has no power of his own to do it again and will be stuck with Detect for a while, probably. It might be nice to give him a day ability, or similarly something that can't be investigated.


And of course, I still disagree with you saying that Nakamori is up there with Megure/Shiratori. If he is, then the only reason he is imo is because the BO is depending a lot more on Vermouth than they should need to in the acquisition of townie roles, in which case the other roles should be buffed, instead of Nakamori being cut down, as in a game with no Vermouth, if the BO are that bad at getting townies' IDs, they'll fair badly.

[Abs.]

IIRC you could be Vodka and still get lots of townie info 

[Akonyl]

only if certain people claim something and then don't bother to refute it when the GM corrects them

[PT]

IIRC you could be Vodka and still get lots of townie info  :P

If you're Eve, anyway.

I didn't actually get a whole lot of townie info from being Vermouth this past round. (Actually, I found more out as Pisco before. ) The stuff I did find out was stuff that some of the other BO got anyway because a few of us were in contact with the same people. And even if you take out Nakamori completely, relying on Vermouth to gather townie info doesn't seem like a very good idea, because as soon as someone finds out your ability, they're gonna start checking for disguises. (Or most of them would, anyway.)

I still don't really get what the problem with Nakamori is, tbh.

[Schillok]

And I would rather have the feeling of "Wow, I got the really nice role (the one with the Lollipop) this time!".
Or, if I didn't: "Well, maybe next time. This one is pretty nice too."


About Okiya:
Well, he can use both Deduce AND Detect on the same night, so that is something he has over Yusaku. Also, no other townie is able to detect, so he has an unique ability already.

And of course, I still disagree with you saying that Nakamori is up there with Megure/Shiratori. If he is, then the only reason he is imo is because the BO is depending a lot more on Vermouth than they should need to in the acquisition of townie roles, in which case the other roles should be buffed, instead of Nakamori being cut down, as in a game with no Vermouth, if the BO are that bad at getting townies' IDs, they'll fair badly.

It's the other way around. A townie must always be wary of "It might be Vermouth in disguise!!!"
It is hard for them to make sure the player he is in contact with is not - either by detecting that Vermouth is not in the game, checking possible disguises or cross-examination (and the other possible ways to do it). However, it always takes some effort. Nakamori just checks it - and still has his other abilities free for whatever he needs them.
Got a player you are not sure about if it might be Vermouth? Just ask in the thread "Could Nakamori check if Abs. is disguised" - and chances are you can be sure afterwards.

Really, I have nothing against that ability, but to me it is more than strong enough to justify Nakamori one investigation less (and not house-searching victims).

[Akonyl]

yes, and then there are the people who never get the lollipop and end up getting shafted.

Yes, Okiya can use both, but he can't use Deduce a second time until the killer in his deduction is found. And without Reveal Culprit, he has no way of really taking matters into his own hands on that. And unique=/=good, so just because he's the only Detector doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve something else.



Yes, townies have to be weary of Vermouth, however this is independent of whether she's actually in the game or not, as it remains a possibility. What *does* depend on her being in the game or not is if the BO has the advantage of having her be there to collect townie roles.

And how can you be sure about asking in the thread? That's a very straightforward scenario you're proposing, that doesn't take into account at all the variables of paranoia that exist in the game. Is that person in the thread BO? Are they just trying to get Nakamori to go on a wild goose chase away from Vermouth? Is that person Vermouth themself? What if Nakamori already had his own plans and didn't just want to drop everything for a random person in the thread? Is there even a Nakamori to do the pinching? What if both of them are BO, Nakamori's been erased and the person's trying to set up Vermouth as having already "been pinched"?

Your scenario bears little difference from someone asking "can someone interrogate/cross examine/house search Abs" or any other of the checking abilities.

[Abs.]

On a personal note, I've gotten the lollipop multiple times but never really did anything with it

[Dus]

On a personal note, I've gotten the lollipop multiple times but never really did anything with it

Same here

[pofa]

On a personal note, I've gotten the lollipop multiple times but never really did anything with it

Same here

Me, too, if the lolipop is Kid. :l

Nakamori's face-pinching ability is refreshing within the police roles, which are mostly just investigation. But I agree with Schillok that it's advantageous enough to cost him one of his investigations, just as Megure used to have 4 investigations before we decided he didn't need that many because could use house-search more often now.

Talking about vanilla roles, I'd like to think of some more alternatives to investigation (and the "super investigations" like face pinch and house search) for some of the town roles, particularly police (stake out was a good start). Despite those police roles being so powerful (even over-powered), I feel  like they're the most "vanilla" in the game. (It always feels like, "investigator again?) So I guess instead of removing one of Nakamori's/Megure's/Shiratori's abilities we could think of something to replace them with that's more interesting? (Not that I've ever been able to come up with one. )

[Akonyl]

On a personal note, I've gotten the lollipop multiple times but never really did anything with it

Same here

Me, too, if the lolipop is Kid. :l

Nakamori's face-pinching ability is refreshing within the police roles, which are mostly just investigation. But I agree with Schillok that it's advantageous enough to cost him one of his investigations, just as Megure used to have 4 investigations before we decided he didn't need that many because could use house-search more often now.

Talking about vanilla roles, I'd like to think of some more alternatives to investigation (and the "super investigations" like face pinch and house search) for some of the town roles, particularly police (stake out was a good start). Despite those police roles being so powerful (even over-powered), I feel  like they're the most "vanilla" in the game. (It always feels like, "investigator again?) So I guess instead of removing one of Nakamori's/Megure's/Shiratori's abilities we could think of something to replace them with that's more interesting? (Not that I've ever been able to come up with one. )

And that loss of an investigation brought him down to the rest of the police's level investigation-wise, where Nakamori also resides. To take off another investigation of Nakamori's is basically to say that it's more dangerous than House Search, which I don't think is the case.

However, if Investigation were to be replaced with something else entirely for megure/shiratori/satou/nakamori/yumi, I'd have no problem with it, as I've never been much a fan of investigation (or at the very least, the ability to investigate someone investigating you).

[Kleene Onigiri]

Fair enough on the spying/deduction point. However, something else that needs to be considered is that this is the one case in the game where there's one keyword to two actions: One crime and one non-crime.

If Bourbon spies, and I try to arrest him for spying, the arrest would work. If Okiya deduces, and I arrest him for spying, he doesn't? Or he does?

If he does, then deducing is a crime, which is weird. Okiya, the smelly townie criminal... how unfortunate for him. D:
If he doesn't, this makes an easy way for Okiya to prove himself to police (see that crime I just did? Try arresting me for it :V)

As for james/kir, maybe they should be given both investigates each night, maybe they shouldn't, that's up for debate. I was just saying that during this round, they were supposed to be able to do one or the other, I'm pretty sure.

Hm... I didn't see that :V

Then spying shouldn't be a crime maybe.

It was already mentioned: That was a mistake by the GM that game because we changed how Special Investigate works on a short notice.

But it has to be mentioned, that it has to be changed for the next round.

He is police. All police can arrest. So Tome can as well. Did we need anymore reason?
(Seriously, just like all Detectives have Interrogate - it is what ties them together.)

And... despite being Tome only for one night I think he is fine. A police, so a huge danger to the BO but not too good.

My point was that you complained about so may police there that can arrest. Yeah, they can arrest, which is ok. But if you think there is enough arresting going on already, why putting in another police officer?

Well, making BO better is much less of a problem to me. Stronger BO means we could have less of them in the game and still have a good and fair game. But the more BO there are (to compensate for too powerful townies), the less forgiving the game becomes. I don't want the time back where 2 misslynches during day 1 and 2 meant the BO would win quickly afterwards.
Also: If we notice a role is too weak - for example because the number of players in a game increased over the time - there is no reason not to fix it. Again, my main concern is that certain roles might become too strong. And for the moment I see the main problem with some police, particularly with Shiratori, Megure and Nakamori. (We will see about Satô. The others seem to be fine.)

The BO was already strengthened :V
And I noticed, that Kir/James could be too weak compared to other townies. Kir/James is not police. So what's the problem with my suggestion? XD It doesn't make them muuuch stronger anyway :V

Also on the topic of Okiya: I feel sort of bad for him, being a suspiciously smelly townie with abilities that admittedly aren't too hot (detect vs yusaku's interrogate), not to mention that once he deduces, he has no power of his own to do it again and will be stuck with Detect for a while, probably. It might be nice to give him a day ability, or similarly something that can't be investigated.

about the BO depending on Vermouth. This totally depends on the player. I was the old version of chianti and was able to gather info. While other people, that had better chances to do that, did nothing.
So even if a player get's the best info-gathering-role, as long as he's not using it, it doesn't help.

[Akonyl]

Also on the topic of Okiya: I feel sort of bad for him, being a suspiciously smelly townie with abilities that admittedly aren't too hot (detect vs yusaku's interrogate), not to mention that once he deduces, he has no power of his own to do it again and will be stuck with Detect for a while, probably. It might be nice to give him a day ability, or similarly something that can't be investigated.

wha? D:

Giving Okiya another uninvestigatable ability would make him better (as I don't think he's too good atm), and also allow Bourbon and him to remain "mirrors" to everyone else, as nobody would be able to prove that Okiya did the action.

[xpon]

BTW.. our main detective, Shinichi/Conan/Heiji is useless right?

if you need investigating, then being a police is better.

if you want interrogation, hakuba / yusaku is way better!.

so it really suck being detective

[Akonyl]

BTW.. our main detective, Shinichi/Conan/Heiji is useless right?

if you need investigating, then being a police is better.

if you want interrogation, hakuba / yusaku is way better!.

so it really suck being detective

why is hakuba better? He can run away yeah, but generally he doesn't get to because he never knows he's actually being chased anyway, and late game, running away is the same thing as dying basically because you lose your vote. Not to mention that he loses his Night 1 interrogation.

Yusaku's debatable, but 5 investigations can be pretty useful, tbh.

[xpon]

i mean on interrogation term only..

as general hakuba is inferior to the other 3 detective.. but they are not strong role in this game.. and often they are suspected as GIN!.

investigation 5 wont help much

how about gave them investigation and interrogation..

so if someone made the POLL like we have in this thread, then the answer will be "Shinichi/Conan/Heiji"