Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

[Zerozaki4869]

[††] Cases in point: Okiya was Akai after Akai faked his death. Amuro was PSB after being Bourbon. Kir was CIA as well as Black Organization and her younger brother Eisuke was looking for her. Vermouth used her disguise skills to be both Sharon and Chris because she doesn't age for some reason. Ideas like Akai is Okiya and Bourbon and manipulating the FBI behind the scenes, or Eisuke is a Black Organization agent impersonating Kir's younger brother to verify her loyalty were overcomplicated, and ultimately wrong.[/color]

Then it is simple, Tsutomu was Asaka, since both disappeared after the Haneda-case without a trace and it would make sense otherwise too (Tsutomu not being FBI, but Akai joining FBI, because they had info on Amanda and the case (or not)). And Asaka is not Rum, but someone with a crucial info on him, that is why the BO is interested in the name "Asaca".

I'm serious with this, not trolling.

Tsutomu could have been Asaka, but then why his son Akai Shuichi thinks Asaca was Rum, why he didn't tell his wife about his assignment as Amanda's bodyguard?
Tsutomu didn't have the flowing hair, at least not in Akai's flashback but the only picture of Asaka shows someone with a flowing black hair.
If he was involved in the case, then why did he flee, he could have helped the investigation while being on the witness protection program?
Why would he mean that "I made enemies with very bad people", he only made enemies with Rum, how was he able to know that Rum belonged to some organization?
BO is only edgy about the dying message which was left by Kohji, that's why they wanted to inquire about Hado's knowledge about the dying message (Why "C" was used instead of "K"?).
To be precise at the end of the soul detective case Gin mentions "Kohji case is Rum's headache" and Gin puts the interest of BO first. So any info on Kohji case would implicate Rum on a personal level, like exposing his social name, et.al. not implicate BO as a whole.

[Valentin]

The spiritual similarities between the two are so strong that the main reason I am convinced the Tsutomu is Kuroda idea is viable is because it could be like the solution of Justice for All's case 2 killer's backstory.

Though I’m aware that you only mentioned this as an example, I’d like to take the opportunity for quoting myself from earlier this year:

As much as I keep reading that Tsutomu Akai might be wearing a disguise, I keep wondering how that would be supposed to play out.

Like Touichi Kuroba and Yuusaku Kudou, Tsutomu Akai seems to have been designed according to the fomula son + facial hair. Since Touichi Kuroba and Yuusaku Kudou basically represent perfected versions of their children, Tsutomu Akai will presumably be ahead of his as well. Considering Shuuichi Akai and Shuukichi Haneda, I can’t imagine him being significantly less intelligent than Yuusaku Kudou; though Shuuichi’s fake death was ultimately orchestrated by Conan, I don’t think that the difference between them is too big.

That’s why I have problems with the notion of Tsutomu Akai wearing a disguise. Even if his intellect might not quite compare to Yuusaku Kudou’s, being one of the smartest characters and having the ability to change his appearance would elevate him to a combination of Touichi Kuroba and Yuusaku Kudou; whether or not he’s a total match in either discipline, such a hybrid would be too superior for me to fancy.

But if someone else provides the costumes, who would that be? Both Vermouth and Yukiko Kudou seem out of the question. And if it’s a character not yet introduced, who would that be?

While I agree that Tsutomu Akai is still alive, I can’t think of a reasonable way to include dress-ups in that context. Maybe I’m ignoring a possibility?

I think that’s quite similar to theories proposing that Vermouth is Rumi Wakasa and Iori Muga is Rum or related to them: While they may seem technically possible, the concrete content imposes limits which make me consider them highly unlikely.

[k11chi]

He's not wearing a disguise but a face surgery, it has already happened in the series and it's one of the points Chek makes (to seek out meta clues or ideas from other cases that Gosho will use in the story).

However there's something Chek didn't take into account, and that's the evolution of both of the series and detective fiction in general. Neither of the series are like they were at first. Ace Attorney was very simplistic in its original trilogy before it became a huge hit and a massive game franchise, Gosho used to do way more golden age-type mysteries when he began compared to now when they're limited to just Heiji cases, which is why his cases are normal apartment cases instead of labyrinth mansions with disappearing buildings (disappearing reminds me of Bell Tree Express, the modern version of Murder on Orient Express, where Gosho made an entire carriage vanish - the trick would have probably been alot more ridicilous in the past). The kindergarten case seemed very experimental for Gosho.

[Kor]

We don't see movie characters making canon debut everyday, so the Canon needs the presence of Momiji and Iori.

But... Takagi and Shiratori are pretty clear examples of characters that were first used in the anime and movies before being introduced in the manga and while Takagi did get a very prominent role, it's not like they were required for some BO related purpose.
Besides, does said "canon" truly need characters like Naeko or Sakurako or police inspector #9 for some higher purpose other than what they've had so far? A character appearing in this series is very likely to simply not have any sort of involvement in its main plot and may just exist for some silly fillery purpose like a Chiba romance or a creepy Heiji stalker.

Also here's something from the Red Thread facebook page about Iori and Momiji (translated by Spimer): https://www.facebook.com/DCTheRedThread ... 7432321872

A few info from Aoyama's interview, translation by Spimer:
It'd seem that Momiji was indeed thought of as a movie character but Gosho decided to make her show up in the manga too to make people familiar with her by the time the movie came out.
Also, Iori went through several design stages (at first it was a old geezer) before they made him a handsome type (TN: The movie staff, not Gosho)
Also says that Okita will be involved in the Kazuha - Heiji relationship.

Tsutomu could have been Asaka, but then why his son Akai Shuichi thinks Asaca was Rum, why he didn't tell his wife about his assignment as Amanda's bodyguard?

While I'm not necessarily leaning towards the theory mentioned above, characters in this series basically suck at sharing information with their allies to the point of hilarity. This is far from ideal, but this is sadly the case so it's something to keep in mind.

[Misztina]

Tsutomu could have been Asaka, but then why his son Akai Shuichi thinks Asaca was Rum, why he didn't tell his wife about his assignment as Amanda's bodyguard?
Tsutomu didn't have the flowing hair, at least not in Akai's flashback but the only picture of Asaka shows someone with a flowing black hair.
If he was involved in the case, then why did he flee, he could have helped the investigation while being on the witness protection program?
Why would he mean that "I made enemies with very bad people", he only made enemies with Rum, how was he able to know that Rum belonged to some organization?
BO is only edgy about the dying message which was left by Kohji, that's why they wanted to inquire about Hado's knowledge about the dying message (Why "C" was used instead of "K"?).
To be precise at the end of the soul detective case Gin mentions "Kohji case is Rum's headache" and Gin puts the interest of BO first. So any info on Kohji case would implicate Rum on a personal level, like exposing his social name, et.al. not implicate BO as a whole.

1. If a mission is secret, you don't just share all the info you have with your family. Even if tehy are secret agents/MI/whatevers.
2. Hair is the easiest thing to change.
3. He fled because he realised the danger the BO/Rum had. As he said in his email/sms he met with very bad people, surely if knew he'd be safe, he'd have chosen to share the info with the police/FBI/CIA. But maybe he saw a BO member/Rum who is part of one of them so basically he didn't know whom to trust. And you never know if Rum was acting alone. Probably, but... who knows, right? (Most likely he acted alone.)

[dccd]

Also, Iori went through several design stages (at first it was a old geezer) before they made him a handsome type (TN: The movie staff, not Gosho)

Wait, what - Are you kidding me?!
So basically the movie staff had a way higher impact on creating Iori than Gosho?
Does anybody yet still believe up to that point that Gosho will implement a important character into the Rum-arc which he hasn´t done by himself?

I mean this kinda is the ultimate proof that Iori won´t play any big part (not Rum, not Asaka, not someones helping hand) in the Rum-arc.

[Zerozaki4869]

Tsutomu could have been Asaka, but then why his son Akai Shuichi thinks Asaca was Rum, why he didn't tell his wife about his assignment as Amanda's bodyguard?
Tsutomu didn't have the flowing hair, at least not in Akai's flashback but the only picture of Asaka shows someone with a flowing black hair.
If he was involved in the case, then why did he flee, he could have helped the investigation while being on the witness protection program?
Why would he mean that "I made enemies with very bad people", he only made enemies with Rum, how was he able to know that Rum belonged to some organization?
BO is only edgy about the dying message which was left by Kohji, that's why they wanted to inquire about Hado's knowledge about the dying message (Why "C" was used instead of "K"?).
To be precise at the end of the soul detective case Gin mentions "Kohji case is Rum's headache" and Gin puts the interest of BO first. So any info on Kohji case would implicate Rum on a personal level, like exposing his social name, et.al. not implicate BO as a whole.

1. If a mission is secret, you don't just share all the info you have with your family. Even if tehy are secret agents/MI/whatevers.
2. Hair is the easiest thing to change.
3. He fled because he realised the danger the BO/Rum had. As he said in his email/sms he met with very bad people, surely if knew he'd be safe, he'd have chosen to share the info with the police/FBI/CIA. But maybe he saw a BO member/Rum who is part of one of them so basically he didn't know whom to trust. And you never know if Rum was acting alone. Probably, but... who knows, right? (Most likely he acted alone.)

1. He screwed up the mission, at least that much info his organization was bound to give to his wife. We still are unsure that whether he was a PI or CIA operative.
2. Not necessarily, still point taken. Though I can't imagine a BG with a wig.
3. The question is why he fled in the first place? As of now Asaka is the prime suspect of the case. So his hiding didn't give him any advantage, his communication with his family seemed to be suggestive of him diving deeper into a new identity. Even if we assume Rum knew his Asaka identity why Tsutomu was so sure that Rum had known his Tsutomu identity also?
Why till now he hasn't reached out to the law enforcement agencies who are already investigating BO(while bypassing the moles, though as of now we don't have any confirmation about BO's counter infiltration in Law enforcement) if he had so much information about Rum and BO?

Tsutomu was leaving his old life behind, because he made enemies with some bad people sounds more like Tsutomu is jumping to a new life to investigate the said bad people. If he really wanted the new identity to hide from the bad people then he would have adopted a new persona and stayed around his family(that's what Akai does as Subaru, as his mission is to keep Haibara safe, BO investigation is only secondary) but that wasn't the case. I'm pretty much sure a daredevil like Akai senior would adopt a persona and infiltrate BO.

[Misztina]

1.The question is why he fled in the first place?

2. As of now Asaka is the prime suspect of the case. So his hiding didn't give him any advantage, his communication with his family seemed to be suggestive of him diving deeper into a new identity. Even if we assume Rum knew his Asaka identity why Tsutomu was so sure that Rum had known his Tsutomu identity also?

3. Why till now he hasn't reached out to the law enforcement agencies who are already investigating BO(while bypassing the moles, though as of now we don't have any confirmation about BO's counter infiltration in Law enforcement) if he had so much information about Rum and BO?

4. Tsutomu was leaving his old life behind, because he made enemies with some bad people sounds more like Tsutomu is jumping to a new life to investigate the said bad people. If he really wanted the new identity to hide from the bad people then he would have adopted a new persona and stayed around his family(that's what Akai does as Subaru, as his mission is to keep Haibara safe, BO investigation is only secondary) but that wasn't the case. I'm pretty much sure a daredevil like Akai senior would adopt a persona and infiltrate BO.

1. Maybe he was framed so well, he knew he wouldn't escape, unless he really escapes.

2. Maybe, just maybe, he wanted to infiltrate the BO and his rookie job playing Asaka was to assist Rum in killing Amanda Hughes. But then something went wrong(like father like son? XD), obviously, his identity was exposed, so he had to escape and create a new identity.

3. The wild idea for that would be that Kuroda is Tsutomu.

4. Staying around his family is a bad idea. Even Akai didn't return to his family. He had his priorities. Tsutomu had his. (And Conan is risking much staying at the Mouri Detective Agency btw..)

[k11chi]

Also, Iori went through several design stages (at first it was a old geezer) before they made him a handsome type (TN: The movie staff, not Gosho)

Wait, what - Are you kidding me?!
So basically the movie staff had a way higher impact on creating Iori than Gosho?
Does anybody yet still believe up to that point that Gosho will implement a important character into the Rum-arc which he hasn´t done by himself?

I mean this kinda is the ultimate proof that Iori won´t play any big part (not Rum, not Asaka, not someones helping hand) in the Rum-arc.

Because Gosho totally doesn't take names and ideas, like Takagi, from the anime every now and then... The fact of the matter is that Iori is a mysterious character in the manga now. Look at the soliloquy from june 4th where Gosho trolls with Okita.

[Zerozaki4869]

1.The question is why he fled in the first place?

2. As of now Asaka is the prime suspect of the case. So his hiding didn't give him any advantage, his communication with his family seemed to be suggestive of him diving deeper into a new identity. Even if we assume Rum knew his Asaka identity why Tsutomu was so sure that Rum had known his Tsutomu identity also?

3. Why till now he hasn't reached out to the law enforcement agencies who are already investigating BO(while bypassing the moles, though as of now we don't have any confirmation about BO's counter infiltration in Law enforcement) if he had so much information about Rum and BO?

4. Tsutomu was leaving his old life behind, because he made enemies with some bad people sounds more like Tsutomu is jumping to a new life to investigate the said bad people. If he really wanted the new identity to hide from the bad people then he would have adopted a new persona and stayed around his family(that's what Akai does as Subaru, as his mission is to keep Haibara safe, BO investigation is only secondary) but that wasn't the case. I'm pretty much sure a daredevil like Akai senior would adopt a persona and infiltrate BO.

1. Maybe he was framed so well, he knew he wouldn't escape, unless he really escapes.

2. Maybe, just maybe, he wanted to infiltrate the BO and his rookie job playing Asaka was to assist Rum in killing Amanda Hughes. But then something went wrong(like father like son? XD), obviously, his identity was exposed, so he had to escape and create a new identity.

3. The wild idea for that would be that Kuroda is Tsutomu.

4. Staying around his family is a bad idea. Even Akai didn't return to his family. He had his priorities. Tsutomu had his. (And Conan is risking much staying at the Mouri Detective Agency btw..)

1. Asaka only got framed because Asaka ran away. Amanda Hughes' cause of death was never found out. Asaka won't have any motive to kill Haneda Kohji also. Because if the principal dies without any cause of death would it be easy to pin the blame on the bodyguard or anyone else in that matter?
Asaka also lacked motive in Kohji's case as there's no connection between them. Asaka only became the prime suspect because Asaka ran away else it would have been very hard to frame Asaka.

2. If that was the case then Akai would have found out about his dad's escapade during his BO years and still won't have to run around for more clues.

3. I'm more in line with thinking that Kuroda might be an infiltrator in BO now working as a double agent. He's an infiltrator in BO who has manipulated BO into believing that he's their infiltrator in the PD. It's a wilder idea and I know it.

4. Not really if he already has faked his death and living a new life. The BO/pursuers will only find his family if he tries to contact them as Tsutomu Akai, but he can still live as a new man and keep watch on his family. Don't forget Haibara is Akai's nearest family in the first place, Sera and Mary came much later and Shukichi was unrelated to this whole plot.

[Misztina]

1. Asaka only got framed because Asaka ran away. Amanda Hughes' cause of death was never found out. Asaka won't have any motive to kill Haneda Kohji also. Because if the principal dies without any cause of death would it be easy to pin the blame on the bodyguard or anyone else in that matter?
Asaka also lacked motive in Kohji's case as there's no connection between them. Asaka only became the prime suspect because Asaka ran away else it would have been very hard to frame Asaka.

2. If that was the case then Akai would have found out about his dad's escapade during his BO years and still won't have to run around for more clues.

3. I'm more in line with thinking that Kuroda might be an infiltrator in BO now working as a double agent. He's an infiltrator in BO who has manipulated BO into believing that he's their infiltrator in the PD. It's a wilder idea and I know it.

4. Not really if he already has faked his death and living a new life. The BO/pursuers will only find his family if he tries to contact them as Tsutomu Akai, but he can still live as a new man and keep watch on his family. Don't forget Haibara is Akai's nearest family in the first place, Sera and Mary came much later and Shukichi was unrelated to this whole plot.

1. Or Asaka wanted to be framed in order to have a good reason to hide? I'm not trying to overcomplicate things though, so maybe you are just simply right.

2. Would he? Akai maybe never knew that Asaka was his father. Afterall, Asaka was a name given from Amanda.

3. Could be. Nice idea.


We don't know the details of the case. There could have been a secret plan against Rum/unknown attacker for example Amanda and Kouji switching rooms or something . Maybe not switching rooms, but I find it highly suspicious that they had to extra mention the fingerprints of Amanda in Kohji's room. But that may be only my sixth sense acting up.
And Kohji's motto "one should stick with one's original plan" might be a hint too, so there could have been an Asaka-Amanda-Kohji plan to the begin with.
My thought on that is that Kohji's murder was not planned by the murderer, but neccesary.

[Stopwatch]

Also, Iori went through several design stages (at first it was a old geezer) before they made him a handsome type (TN: The movie staff, not Gosho)

Wait, what - Are you kidding me?!
So basically the movie staff had a way higher impact on creating Iori than Gosho?
Does anybody yet still believe up to that point that Gosho will implement a important character into the Rum-arc which he hasn´t done by himself?

I mean this kinda is the ultimate proof that Iori won´t play any big part (not Rum, not Asaka, not someones helping hand) in the Rum-arc.

Because Gosho totally doesn't take names and ideas, like Takagi, from the anime every now and then... The fact of the matter is that Iori is a mysterious character in the manga now. Look at the soliloquy from june 4th where Gosho trolls with Okita.

There's quite a difference between Takagi who was gradually integrated before being made a proper character and the centre of an entire arc that is Rum.

[k11chi]

Also, Iori went through several design stages (at first it was a old geezer) before they made him a handsome type (TN: The movie staff, not Gosho)

Wait, what - Are you kidding me?!
So basically the movie staff had a way higher impact on creating Iori than Gosho?
Does anybody yet still believe up to that point that Gosho will implement a important character into the Rum-arc which he hasn´t done by himself?

I mean this kinda is the ultimate proof that Iori won´t play any big part (not Rum, not Asaka, not someones helping hand) in the Rum-arc.

Because Gosho totally doesn't take names and ideas, like Takagi, from the anime every now and then... The fact of the matter is that Iori is a mysterious character in the manga now. Look at the soliloquy from june 4th where Gosho trolls with Okita.

There's quite a difference between Takagi who was gradually integrated before being made a proper character and the centre of an entire arc that is Rum.

He doesn't have to be rum. He can't even be a bum in-story via the logic that's being used here.

[Stopwatch]

Also, Iori went through several design stages (at first it was a old geezer) before they made him a handsome type (TN: The movie staff, not Gosho)

Wait, what - Are you kidding me?!
So basically the movie staff had a way higher impact on creating Iori than Gosho?
Does anybody yet still believe up to that point that Gosho will implement a important character into the Rum-arc which he hasn´t done by himself?

I mean this kinda is the ultimate proof that Iori won´t play any big part (not Rum, not Asaka, not someones helping hand) in the Rum-arc.

Because Gosho totally doesn't take names and ideas, like Takagi, from the anime every now and then... The fact of the matter is that Iori is a mysterious character in the manga now. Look at the soliloquy from june 4th where Gosho trolls with Okita.

There's quite a difference between Takagi who was gradually integrated before being made a proper character and the centre of an entire arc that is Rum.

He doesn't have to be rum. He can't even be a bum in-story via the logic that's being used here.

What logic is that?

[k11chi]

Also, Iori went through several design stages (at first it was a old geezer) before they made him a handsome type (TN: The movie staff, not Gosho)

Wait, what - Are you kidding me?!
So basically the movie staff had a way higher impact on creating Iori than Gosho?
Does anybody yet still believe up to that point that Gosho will implement a important character into the Rum-arc which he hasn´t done by himself?

I mean this kinda is the ultimate proof that Iori won´t play any big part (not Rum, not Asaka, not someones helping hand) in the Rum-arc.

Because Gosho totally doesn't take names and ideas, like Takagi, from the anime every now and then... The fact of the matter is that Iori is a mysterious character in the manga now. Look at the soliloquy from june 4th where Gosho trolls with Okita.

There's quite a difference between Takagi who was gradually integrated before being made a proper character and the centre of an entire arc that is Rum.

He doesn't have to be rum. He can't even be a bum in-story via the logic that's being used here.

What logic is that?

The point was that there is no logic behind these arguments. Look, it literally doesn't matter who makes these characters. Toriko had the 8th kings as the main antagonists for its second saga and the strongest of the 8th kings, Moon, was created by a fan. No rule ever existed that Gosho can't use Iori however he pleases, he's the one writing the story anyway.