Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 891-893

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I discovered that Amuro could be from Public Security Bureau

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12231&p=808106#p808106

I think your theory would make more sense for now as Conan thought Amuro could be from the PSIA because "Zero (ゼロ)" + Appendix + "Get out of my Japan", but Amuro told Conan he was wrong meaning Conan misjudged and Amuro Tooru still really is a bad guy.

Perhaps Tooru's parent(s) wasn't FBI then, but were PSIA/PSB and Amuro blames something the FBI did in Japan that got them killed or something. Amuro was adopted into the Black Organization. If Amuro's parent(s) worked with the FBI in the past, and the lady victim who is friends with Jodie in this case remembers them doing so, maybe she assumed Amuro had followed in his parent's footsteps because he is a detective right now. She asks Amuro to help her because of this misconception.
I still wonder if Amuro deliberately mislead Conan or if he heard the PSB/PSIA lingo while young and retained it, assuming this theory is true. I have a feeling it wasn't on purpose because he couldn't make that kid say Zero (ゼロ) after all.

[Conan 48:69]

I discovered that Amuro could be from Public Security Bureau

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12231&p=808106#p808106

I think your theory would make more sense for now as Conan thought Amuro could be from the PSIA because "Zero" + Appendix + "Get out of my Japan", but Amuro told Conan he was wrong meaning Conan misjudged and Amuro Tooru still really is a bad guy.

Perhaps Amuro is screwing over Conan, he can't just say that's right then no more suspense for Amuro anymore in Bourbon Arc.

[User 4869]

I discovered that Amuro could be from Public Security Bureau

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12231&p=808106#p808106

I think your theory would make more sense for now as Conan thought Amuro could be from the PSIA because "Zero" + Appendix + "Get out of my Japan", but Amuro told Conan he was wrong meaning Conan misjudged and Amuro Tooru still really is a bad guy.

Why tell Conan he is bad? Why cant he take some advantage of the misunderstanding?

[Fujiwara]

I discovered that Amuro could be from Public Security Bureau

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12231&p=808106#p808106

I think your theory would make more sense for now as Conan thought Amuro could be from the PSIA because "Zero (ゼロ)" + Appendix + "Get out of my Japan", but Amuro told Conan he was wrong meaning Conan misjudged and Amuro Tooru still really is a bad guy.

I said the same thing in the other thread, but I guess I'll post it here as well, since it pertains to the new chapter:

Now, as to the matter of Amuro belonging to the Public Security Intelligence Agency or the Security police (I think the latter makes more sense, because of the 'Zero' thing) ...
After noticing Amuro's reaction to the word 'zero' and his appendix comment, Conan probably thinks Amuro is part of the SP, however, in reality Amuro likely got the nickname 'zero' (0) because his name, 'Rei' means 0, so Conan is making a mistake here ...

Spoiler: Spoilers for file 892!

This actually makes sense if you look at file 892, where Conan apparently* asks Amuro whether he's an enemy of the bad guys and Amuro tells him that he's wrong. (p. 15/16)
So we have file 888, where after the 'zero' and 'appendix' (盲腸) comments, Conan suddenly thinks that Amuro might, in fact, be part of the Security Police, then in file 890, he calls Amuro 'Zero-niiichan' with his 'I've figured it out' face and in file 892 he subtly asks Amuro for confirmation: 'You're an enemy, right? ... Of the bad guys ...' And Amuro corrects him, saying that he misunderstood -> cue Conan's scary face, as he realizes that Amuro is, in fact, a bad guy.

*I've not actually seen the Japanese file yet, but two people who know Chinese have confirmed that that's what Conan says in the Chinese file.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I discovered that Amuro could be from Public Security Bureau

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12231&p=808106#p808106

I think your theory would make more sense for now as Conan thought Amuro could be from the PSIA because "Zero" + Appendix + "Get out of my Japan", but Amuro told Conan he was wrong meaning Conan misjudged and Amuro Tooru still really is a bad guy.

Perhaps Amuro is screwing over Conan, he can't just say that's right then no more suspense for Amuro anymore in Bourbon Arc.

I edited my post, but I still think it is problematic for young Tooru to be hanging out with Elena as a child. That is far too early for an infiltration mission because the Miyanos were definitely in the Black Organization at the time. Maybe Tooru was a neighbor or something of theirs, but I still think don't think he was entirely unrelated to the Black Organization at a young age. Maybe Amuro's parents infiltrated, and then they died because of actions by the FBI, so the Black Organization took over raising Tooru/Rei/whatever his name is because, why not, he is a free malleable smart kid they can make into a tyke bomb?

Also there is plenty of suspense. Conan now knows with absolute certainty that Amuro is on to him. That means Conan is now free to act openly. And we still have the problem that Amuro knows Akai faked his death and could find Okiya very, very soon because that is all that there is left for him to do.

I discovered that Amuro could be from Public Security Bureau

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12231&p=808106#p808106

I think your theory would make more sense for now as Conan thought Amuro could be from the PSIA because "Zero" + Appendix + "Get out of my Japan", but Amuro told Conan he was wrong meaning Conan misjudged and Amuro Tooru still really is a bad guy.

Why tell Conan he is bad? Why cant he take some advantage of the misunderstanding?

Amuro still doesn't seem to be truly good here. Remember he threw his intro case in order to get close to Kogoro in a way that the suspect was close to destroying his own exculpatory evidence. Amuro also reported Shiho Miyano to the Black Organization when he didn't have to. He could have not reported the video and made up some excuse like he intended to break in but The Mouris were up late so he decided to bag it. Also if he was a spy for a Japanese intel agency, I would hope he could put his own past behind him and be professional enough not to go rogue and try to out a hidden FBI agent working to destroy the Black Organization.

Maybe he will try to take advantage of the situation in the next chapter. We did end on a cliff hanger after all. All we can do is wait and see. Amuro might not think he will be able to though. He knows Shuuichi and Conan are working together. He doesn't know how much Shuuichi and Conan consult. I'm pretty sure that Amuro though Conan was contacting Shuuichi when Conan made the call to Ai that Amuro watched in the Blue Parrot case. (Recall Amuro thinks Shiho is dead! [most likely for now at least])

[bash7353]

I'm not sure how perceptive Gosho expects his readers to be, but I think the appendix hint in combination with zero thing may be something many Japanese people will have picked up on. Not really something non-Japanese people were likely to see, but for them it may not have been that hard. Just imagine someone mentioning Langley, you're immediately thinking CIA. So, I guess Elena calling Amuro "Rei-kun" was supposed to show us that the "zero" thing at the hospital didn't happen - as some readers (and Conan as it seems) may have thought - due to the fact that Amuro's Japanese intelligence, but just because it's fitting nickname for him.

I doubt, though, that Amuro did anything on purpose here. This child just happened to be there, and the appendix comment was probably just something he thought of and said. I don't think he meant to mislead Conan. Otherwise, why tell him he's wrong when Conan is just starting to think exactly what he wants him to think? Bourbon may not be working for PSIA, but it's likely he has connections with intelligence in one way or another as I doubt the appendix comment was just a coincidence.

From where I'm looking at it it all makes sense, but I can't help but wonder if that's really all there is to it. Amuro has the upper hand right now. Has had it for a while, actually. Has Conan ever been panicked and horrified over something for such a long time? While I do enjoy watching someone continuously play the usually so overconfident and pretentious Conan, it's not really Gosho's style to have Conan be in that tough a situation this long, is it?

Also, I'm very curious as to how Gosho plans to write his way out of that without killing off a major character or exposing Conan's identity to the BO. Gosho kind of just closed the door for turning Amuro good, and the only thing I can see left over is making him keep stuff secret like Vermouth.

[k11chi]

Vermouth seems to be very interested in knowing what Amuro knows and his ideas. I'm sure she can think of one, two or maybe even three ways to make Amuro keep his mouth shut

[bash7353]

Vermouth seems to be very interested in knowing what Amuro knows and his ideas. I'm sure she can think of one, two or maybe even three ways to make Amuro keep his mouth shut

And I guess there is that promise as well.

I'm not saying that Bourbon keeping things from members of the Black Organization doesn't make sense in terms of plot consistency. It just would be repetitive and I'm hoping Gosho's gonna be a bit more creative than that.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I'm not sure how perceptive Gosho expects his readers to be, but I think the appendix hint in combination with zero thing may be something many Japanese people will have picked up on. Not really something non-Japanese people were likely to see, but for them it may not have been that hard. Just imagine someone mentioning Langley, you're immediately thinking CIA.

The way the FBI and CIA were hinted at being involved was through characters using the unique lingo. Unfortunately most English speakers aren't going to recognize Japanese Intel agency lingo because there aren't too many PSIA/PSB-centric written works in English. I think it would be a good idea to review Amuro's past lines to see if anything else was dropped early that we missed.

I also think we should take another look at Date and re-review his character. What if he was part of the local PSB dept on the side?

So, I guess Elena calling Amuro "Rei-kun" was supposed to show us that the "zero" thing at the hospital didn't happen - as some readers (and Conan as it seems) may have thought - due to the fact that Amuro's Japanese intelligence, but just because it's fitting nickname for him.

Maybe. I wonder if the Black Organization adults (and it spread to the kids too) knew he was son of PSIA/PSB (even if they didn't tell him) and called him Zero because it complimented his real name/"official" nickname "Rei".

I doubt, though, that Amuro did anything on purpose here. This child just happened to be there, and the appendix comment was probably just something he thought of and said. I don't think he meant to mislead Conan. Otherwise, why tell him he's wrong when Conan is just starting to think exactly what he wants him to think? Bourbon may not be working for PISA, but it's likely he has connections with intelligence in one way or another as I doubt the appendix comment was just a coincidence.

The situation certainly fell into Amuro's lap because Amuro could not have planned Eri getting appendicitis and the boy counting down in front of the elevator. That said, it is possible that Amuro was not completely naive about how he presented himself and took advantage of the opportunity given to him.

From where I'm looking at it it all makes sense, but I can't help but wonder if that's really all there is to it. Amuro has the upper hand right now. Has had it for a while, actually. Has Conan ever been panicked and horrified over something for such a long time? While I do enjoy watching someone continuously play the usually so overconfident and pretentious Conan, it's not really Gosho's style to have Conan be in that tough a situation this long, is it?

Conan got pretty worked up over Vermouth before the clash, going so far as to stay over at Agasa's out of fear he was going to attack. It was also sort of the same with Kir/Eisuke, right before Red vs Black which cleared up that Eisuke was innocent and the Org was not using him.

Also, I'm very curious as to how Gosho plans to write his way out of that without killing off a major character or exposing Conan's identity to the BO. Gosho kind of just closed the door for turning Amuro good, and the only thing I can see left over is making him keep stuff secret like Vermouth.

It's possible that there is something in Amuro's past that he does not know the true story of that has been misrepresented to him, especially if his parents or acquaintances were PSIA/PSB. Akai Shuuichi, having a connection with Amuro we don't know the details of yet, may clear that up for him and convince him his position is incorrect. Amuro may leave the Org, switch allegiances, or simply agree to a truce like Vermouth has. Or we could have Amuro die and possibly take Shuuichi down with him for real like ending of Char's Counterattack Gundam film.

[PhantomWriter]

The thing that bothers me has to do with how Amuro says about the misconception without missing a beat. If he was really Org, using that to his advantage would be downright useful. Why wouldn't he use that misconception to his advantage?

But if he isn't, he has seen Conan's (in)ability to keep a secret and how Conan's the weak link in regard to the issue of Shuichi's death, so Conan can't be allowed to know. On top of that, aside from the issue of ironic process theory that Amuro's so aware of, there's a similar psychological trick to what Shuichi used. Namely that to fool one's enemies, one must fool one's friends. In order to maintain a cover, he wants everyone who knows about the Org. to think he's Org.

About the Char's Counterattack possible parallel, Chek, I could see a particular cause for it. Shuichi has been very careful, has proven his loyalty over and over, and Conan repays him in carelessness regarding actions that reveal Shuichi being alive and lack of information in some regards (such as going out of his way to hide he's Shinichi from Shuichi). Shuichi is a vengeful character. Mix all that together and he may go after Conan if the pattern continues and shit hits the fan.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

The thing that bothers me has to do with how Amuro says about the misconception without missing a beat. If he was really Org, using that to his advantage would be downright useful. Why wouldn't he use that misconception to his advantage?

But if he isn't, he has seen Conan's (in)ability to keep a secret and how Conan's the weak link in regard to the issue of Shuichi's death, so Conan can't be allowed to know. On top of that, aside from the issue of ironic process theory that Amuro's so aware of, there's a similar psychological trick to what Shuuichi used. Namely that to fool one's enemies, one must fool one's friends. In order to maintain a cover, he wants everyone who knows about the Org. to think he's Org.

Keep in mind this isn't the first time Amuro used a do-something-that-will-make-Conan-panic strategy where he allows Conan to figure something out about him instead of leaving Conan naive, thus causing Conan to make a mistake in his haste and fear. At the shrine meeting with Jodie, Bourbon deliberately left a hole in his disguise story for Conan to catch so that he would realize that someone was spying. The motive for that seemed to be trying to catch Conan contacting Shuuichi in panic. (Conan contacted Ai not Shuu, but it isn't like Amuro would know that from the convo.) Amuro must have been closely following Conan (and not Kogoro) all over after the shrine incident waiting for him to catch on because there is not other good explanation for how Amuro managed to be catch up with and be close to Conan after Conan took off sprinting from the Blue Parrot. (855/856) This situation could very well be more of the same. Amuro must be thinking on his feet here in the situation with Conan, but Bourbon decides to pressure the boy again, this time letting Conan know that he knows Conan's game. Amuro is probably hoping Conan will drag Shuuichi out once he panics.

I would me more sympathetic to the idea of Amuro being a double agent if he didn't rush to Vermouth with the news of Shiho's location. I feel the same about Amuro going after Shuuichi which puts various people at risk. He most definitely seems serious about it (serious enough to appear in public as Akai and attract Org snipers!), which would mean he was partially rogue for sure because no Japanese intelligence agency could condone this kind of personal revenge plot on the job that threatens Japanese citizens. When trying take "Shiho" back alive on the train to her most likely certain death, Amuro didn't appear reluctant.
Amuro just doesn't have the same feeling Kir did, who acted reluctant at every step despite what she might have said.

About the Char's Counterattack possible parallel, Chek, I could see a particular cause for it. Shuichi has been very careful, has proven his loyalty over and over, and Conan repays him in carelessness regarding actions that reveal Shuichi being alive and lack of information in some regards (such as going out of his way to hide he's Shinichi from Shuichi). Shuichi is a vengeful character. Mix all that together and he may go after Conan if the pattern continues and shit hits the fan.

Shuuichi attacking Conan? I don't think that will happen. Shuuichi is loyal to allies. Shuuichi didn't turn on Camel, even though Camel's mistake was the start of a chain of events that led to Akemi's death.

[Jd-]

I discovered that Amuro could be from Public Security Bureau

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12231&p=808106#p808106

I think your theory would make more sense for now as Conan thought Amuro could be from the PSIA because "Zero" + Appendix + "Get out of my Japan", but Amuro told Conan he was wrong meaning Conan misjudged and Amuro Tooru still really is a bad guy.

Why tell Conan he is bad? Why cant he take some advantage of the misunderstanding?

I just want to jump in here and say there is no way that Amuro will actually turn out to be a bad-bad guy. He will be a "good-bad" guy at worst, but in this instance, he may just be saying he's "bad" in that he's done some bad things in the past. However, there is absolutely no way he'll turn out to be a bad-bad guy (Gin, Vodka, Chianti, Korn, etc). For years now, he's proven himself to be "good" at every turn that mattered, including going out of his way to help the other "good" characters out of several dicey situations where he never had to do so.

I'll get caught up in time for File 900, looking forward to where this leads.

[AICHAN]

I agree with JD...we saw a cute little Amuro flashback so there's no way he'll be a real bad guy XDXD

[RoboG55]

I just saw that the new chapter (RAW) came out. Someone translate please; it looks like an important chapter. Somewhat because I can't read Japanese.

[Olly]

Where are the RAW versions usually?