Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

[pofa]

Hey, Hide's pretty suspicious. The Tokyo "Spirits?" C'mon. :x

As far as I'm concerned, it would be nice if Amuro were Bourbon. We need a BO operative that's not totally serious all the time. Even Vermouth hardly jokes around anymore.

Spoiler: more OT

Also, Osaka Big? O. B. = B. O. Both teams are clearly involved in the org.

[Wakarimashita]

Hey, Hide's pretty suspicious. The Tokyo "Spirits?" C'mon. :x

As far as I'm concerned, it would be nice if Amuro were Bourbon. We need a BO operative that's not totally serious all the time. Even Vermouth hardly jokes around anymore.

Spoiler: more OT

Also, Osaka Big? O. B. = B. O. Both teams are clearly involved in the org.

That might have to do with the fact that she has had a few panels for her in the last 200 or so chapters.

[Partsu]

so....
currently
it is thought
that
Subaru=Akai
Sera= "trigger" that gets things going .(and Akai Shuichi's younger Sister)
Scar Akai=Bourbon(=Amuro Tooru)
am I right?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

so....
currently
it is thought
that
Subaru=Akai
Sera= "trigger" that gets things going.
Scar Akai=Bourbon(=Amuro Tooru)
am I right?

That is the most popular theory, with Sera being Akai's sister.

[Partsu]

once again I forget something important and get reminded of it...it hurts you know?
maybe having my 3rd persona in control for too long due to taking joke seriously was too much for me...
but thanks for reminding/correcting!

[sonoci]

Hm, wait...

It hasn't been confirmed or denied that Bourbon's after Sherry.

If that's not what he's doing, what exactly is he up to?

Investigating the FBI? Trying to find Akai?

Or, based on what's been happening in the manga

Spoiler:

investigate Conan? ...for whatever reason?

I really hope some answers surrounding Bourbon will show up around 800 :V

[Partsu]

it seems I posted this on the wrong thread again...

What if....

Spoiler:

Bourbon finds out that Okiya is Akai but realizes that Haibara is Sherry
but because of his one sided love to Akemi he wants her sister to be safe and to keep her safe he'll have to keep Conan safe too...and drawing attention to Okiya(Akai) would compromise their covers...
so he'll decide to swallow up his hate and Lie to other BO...
and therefore comes to Conan's side either them knowing or not...

what do you think? I'll say it again in other words:

Spoiler:

He hates Akai because he thinks it's Akai's fault  Akemi died. He wants to be in good side of Akemis soul so he decides to keep Sherry safe and seeing Haibara he realizes the situation of Conan...and if he puts 2+2 he gets that Okiya must be Akai and Kir AND Conan helped him...(the phone)
so to keep Haibara safe he must keep them safe...TADAAA!!

this theory depends heavily on assumption that Bourbon is caring guy who loved Akemi more than anything...and believes in spirits somewhat...

[kuro_shiro]

i first posted it in this post 

Detective Conan Files 796-??? Discussion Thread
but after getting more ideas i decided to post in this thread

i think boubon is investigating the people who planted bug on kir, thwarted BO's plan and have helped sherry to escape from clutches of gin and possibly are harboring her in safety.

if we go through the files and think from a BO agents point of view ther are only two possible suspects from kir's case
FBI (akai staked out for BO in file 504)
Mouri Kogoro(the last person who met kir i.e who could have bugged her & the person who could have accessed itakura's diary(file 377-383))

in all other confrontations like train bombing ,itakur,and haido hotel case where sherry escaped no suspects can be identified.

of course bourbon can investigate only kogoro as his location ,real identity is acurately known to him.
while fbi could be anywhere and could have prepared measures against vermouth like invaders.

reasons for borbon to suspect kogoro are more explained in spoiler

Spoiler:

Strange behavour of akai
from a BO agent point of view if kogoro was merely a bait and bug was planted by an FBI agent. then akai's behavour was strange.

first he was alone while if it was planned by FBI then there should be more people.if FBI have listened the conversation they would have known that about 5 top members of BO are going to be at the rooftop and they have prepared accordingly.

second, akai shot the bugs to destroy the fingerprints while it would have been 10 times better for him to kill gin and avenge akemi by shooting gin in head  if the fingerprint on bug belonged to an FBI. meaning the fingerprints on bugs belonged to kogoro or someone around him.(well they belonged to conan but BO don't know that)

it can be deducted from this the fingerprint belong to kogoro or people around him making him worth suspecting

The Itakura case
in this confrontation with BO(file377-383) ,gin assumed that person(conan) who bugged the disc was a detective hired by itakura but as it was told in news that itakura was murdered before the deal it is natural to think that the  suspicion would reach the person who got involved on the case and kogoro was the one who solved the case (atleast news said so). if bourbon or vermouth have been sent to police to check whether thaere was anything that revealed their contact with BO then the foppy labeled diary might have been found and read .this would  increase the suspicions.

of course the chances of bourbon suspecting kogoro alone on this case are negigible
however this strongly justifies bourbon's line of thought that kogoro must be investigated

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Strange behavour of akai
second, akai shot the bugs to destroy the fingerprints while it would have been 10 times better for him to kill gin and avenge akemi by shooting gin in head  if the fingerprint on bug belonged to an FBI. meaning the fingerprints on bugs belonged to kogoro or someone around him.(well they belonged to conan but BO don't know that)

The reason Akai didn't shoot to kill after he shot out the bug was because he didn't want the surviving members of the BO to go on a shooting rampage in the middle of the city. Gin is the only BO member present that Chianti and Korn will respect and they are both rather trigger happy. If Gin died, then they would probably flip out. Gin understood the message that Akai was trying to send, so he ordered everyone to leave. There was an unspoken trade; the BO calls off their Kogoro killing mission and doesn't start a shoot out in return for the FBI not killing them on the way down to their cars. From the BO's perspective, there could be more guys than Akai around, but Akai has told them to temporarily hold back until they can avoid civilian causalities.

in this confrontation with BO(file377-383) ,gin assumed that person(conan) who bugged the disc was a detective hired by itakura but as it was told in news that itakura was murdered before the deal

The reason Conan set the meeting with Vodka early was so it would be before the news broadcasted Itakura's death. Conan even listened on the radio to make sure there wasn't any news of it before the meeting. When the locker scene occurred, Itakura's death had not been made public.

[kentasaiba]

new theory:
Akai put Kusudas corpse in his car to fake his death. But Kusuka survived, killed Akai und burned down his car. Then he was secretly promoted to Bourbon and disguised himself as Scar-Akai to lure the FBI out.

[kuro_shiro]

@chekhov your reply made me read file 503 and file 504 again.

however after slight modifications and more organisation here goes my theory again

Bourbon is investigating the unknown detective(UD) who bugged kir, thwarted BO's plan ,bugged gin's porshe 356A along with sherry,help sherry escape from gin and posiibly is harboring her in safety

the reason behind the possibly is that it is known by BO that akai and UD have joined hands so FBI could be protecting sherry now.
Note :bourbon is said to be searching for sherry even in that case he would try to investigate UD as UD can contact FBI ( UD had contacted FBI about bug on kir)

now after having said that Bourbon would form  these possible theories and deduce what it says

Spoiler: 1. UD is kogoro

the fact that kogoro was listening to radio and sat on chair  when it would be obvious that BO is going to kill him
is enough to disprove it.
no more deduction here.

Spoiler: 2. UD is an FBI

if this was the case then FBI would not have let sherry enter haido hotel where pisco caught her. and even if they have let her go in hotel there would be atleast 4-5 fbi to ensure her safety yet the fact that pisco single handedly managed to kidnap her during the rush of media, means that UD and Sherry were alone which could not have been the case had UD been FBI and also FBI would have sent cars to follow gin instead of letting him go when transmitter was broken by gin
same goes if UD was an inspector or something.

this is enogh to conclude that at that time UD and FBI have not joined hand and thus UD is more or less a civilian outside any law enforcement agency.

Spoiler: 3. UD is a civlian related to kogoro or not

considering that UD is unrelated to kogoro
now this would mean that UD bugged kir after kogoro left (as said by vermouth ) and tipped fbi that kogoro would be in danger.

The reason Akai didn't shoot to kill after he shot out the bug was because he didn't want the surviving members of the BO to go on a shooting rampage in the middle of the city. Gin is the only BO member present that Chianti and Korn will respect and they are both rather trigger happy. If Gin died, then they would probably flip out. Gin understood the message that Akai was trying to send, so he ordered everyone to leave. There was an unspoken trade; the BO calls off their Kogoro killing mission and doesn't start a shoot out in return for the FBI not killing them on the way down to their cars. From the BO's perspective, there could be more guys than Akai around, but Akai has told them to temporarily hold back until they can avoid civilian causalities.

now this case want some more dense reasoning

consider the case of akai.
two years ago, he decided to capture gin in his scheduled meeting .he brought out varous member of FBI to stake out and capture gin .

now Bourbon(according to me, in this case) would  think that akai would gather as many fbi he can and might ask japanese police(as jodie did in file 433)  and catch gin and few more BO agent (with their hand right in the cookie jar.)

now for safety of civilians it is an issue but not one that could not be resolved .

if number of police is large enogh or 2 or more sniper take  care of 2 members together at start then it is possible that others may surrender(atleast police and fbi can think that  ) in worst case scenario .fbi and police can kill all BO and investigate their possesion .
however fbi and police if combine then they could also shoot BO agents's arms and make it impossible for them to use a weopen and then arrest them.
they could also use cars to cover civilians if any were there.
it is possible no matter what the situation was .

but this was not done  meaning it can not be revealed to police or kogoro why kogoro was targeted by BO .if it was some civilian unrelated to kogoro it woud have been told while keeping UD's identity a secret .but in the latter case it is not possible as disclose the fact that UD went to kir with kogoro as it would have been obvious that conan is UD  to police and kogoro and undercover BO agent sent by BO to investigate.
plus if they liie that kir was bugged after kogoro left then it would have been seen through as FBI was merely stalking kir and doing something that would harm a civilian could not be done by FBI and had if kir was bugged earliar she would have removed it.

plus if UD is related to kogoro then akai would consider destroying the  fingerprints a priority.
and try to end the suspicions on kogoro in safest way with least  collataral damage.

in short bourbon would arrive at the fact that UD is related to kogoro and UD went to kir' apartment with kogoro
thus making kogoro worth investigating

there may have been few holes but i don't  think bourbon  would actually won't investigate kogoro due to holes in a theory when kogoro is his only lead .

@chekhov: ask yourself if you were bourbon what would you do investigate kogoro or read the mangas

in this confrontation with BO(file377-383) ,gin assumed that person(conan) who bugged the disc was a detective hired by itakura but as it was told in news that itakura was murdered before the deal

The reason Conan set the meeting with Vodka early was so it would be before the news broadcasted Itakura's death. Conan even listened on the radio to make sure there wasn't any news of it before the meeting. When the locker scene occurred, Itakura's death had not been made public.

hmm okay i forgot to put "later" in
"but as it was told in news later that itakura was murdered before the deal "
this discrepancy would have triggered gin and bourbon  to investigate itakura's case and find what  i said in prevous post 

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

@chekhov your reply made me read file 503 and file 504 again.

I believe rereading is the best thing you can do if you want to make theories, so this makes me happy.

Spoiler: Kogoro stuff

however after slight modifications and more organisation here goes my theory again

Bourbon is investigating the unknown detective(UD) who bugged kir, thwarted BO's plan ,bugged gin's porshe 356A along with sherry,help sherry escape from gin and posiibly is harboring her in safety

the reason behind the possibly is that it is known by BO that akai and UD have joined hands so FBI could be protecting sherry now.
Note :bourbon is said to be searching for sherry even in that case he would try to investigate UD as UD can contact FBI ( UD had contacted FBI about bug on kir)

now after having said that Bourbon would form  these possible theories and deduce what it says

the fact that kogoro was listening to radio and sat on chair  when it would be obvious that BO is going to kill him
is enough to disprove it.
no more deduction here.

if this was the case then FBI would not have let sherry enter haido hotel where pisco caught her. and even if they have let her go in hotel there would be atleast 4-5 fbi to ensure her safety yet the fact that pisco single handedly managed to kidnap her during the rush of media, means that UD and Sherry were alone which could not have been the case had UD been FBI and also FBI would have sent cars to follow gin instead of letting him go when transmitter was broken by gin
same goes if UD was an inspector or something.

this is enogh to conclude that at that time UD and FBI have not joined hand and thus UD is more or less a civilian outside any law enforcement agency.

considering that UD is unrelated to kogoro
now this would mean that UD bugged kir after kogoro left (as said by vermouth ) and tipped fbi that kogoro would be in danger.

The reason Akai didn't shoot to kill after he shot out the bug was because he didn't want the surviving members of the BO to go on a shooting rampage in the middle of the city. Gin is the only BO member present that Chianti and Korn will respect and they are both rather trigger happy. If Gin died, then they would probably flip out. Gin understood the message that Akai was trying to send, so he ordered everyone to leave. There was an unspoken trade; the BO calls off their Kogoro killing mission and doesn't start a shoot out in return for the FBI not killing them on the way down to their cars. From the BO's perspective, there could be more guys than Akai around, but Akai has told them to temporarily hold back until they can avoid civilian causalities.

now this case want some more dense reasoning

consider the case of akai.
two years ago, he decided to capture gin in his scheduled meeting .he brought out varous member of FBI to stake out and capture gin .

now Bourbon(according to me, in this case) would  think that akai would gather as many fbi he can and might ask japanese police(as jodie did in file 433)   and catch gin and few more BO agent (with their hand right in the cookie jar.)

now for safety of civilians it is an issue but not one that could not be resolved .

if number of police is large enogh or 2 or more sniper take  care of 2 members together at start then it is possible that others may surrender(atleast police and fbi can think that  ) in worst case scenario .fbi and police can kill all BO and investigate their possesion .
however fbi and police if combine then they could also shoot BO agents's arms and make it impossible for them to use a weopen and then arrest them.
they could also use cars to cover civilians if any were there.
it is possible no matter what the situation was .

but this was not done  meaning it can not be revealed to police or kogoro why kogoro was targeted by BO .if it was some civilian unrelated to kogoro it woud have been told while keeping UD's identity a secret .but in the latter case it is not possible as disclose the fact that UD went to kir with kogoro as it would have been obvious that conan is UD  to police and kogoro and undercover BO agent sent by BO to investigate.
plus if they liie that kir was bugged after kogoro left then it would have been seen through as FBI was merely stalking kir and doing something that would harm a civilian could not be done by FBI and had if kir was bugged earliar she would have removed it.

plus if UD is related to kogoro then akai would consider destroying the  fingerprints a priority.
and try to end the suspicions on kogoro in safest way with least  collataral damage.

in short bourbon would arrive at the fact that UD is related to kogoro and UD went to kir' apartment with kogoro
thus making kogoro worth investigating

there may have been few holes but i don't  think bourbon  would actually won't investigate kogoro due to holes in a theory when kogoro is his only lead .

@chekhov: ask yourself if you were bourbon what would you do investigate kogoro or read the mangas

in this confrontation with BO(file377-383) ,gin assumed that person(conan) who bugged the disc was a detective hired by itakura but as it was told in news that itakura was murdered before the deal

The reason Conan set the meeting with Vodka early was so it would be before the news broadcasted Itakura's death. Conan even listened on the radio to make sure there wasn't any news of it before the meeting. When the locker scene occurred, Itakura's death had not been made public.

hmm okay i forgot to put "later" in
"but as it was told in news later that itakura was murdered before the deal "
this discrepancy would have triggered gin and bourbon  to investigate itakura's case and find what  i said in prevous post  

I am not arguing that Kogoro isn't suspicous. On the contrary, Kogoro is highly suspicious, and generally so because of the high correlation between his presence at BO related cases and then the BO failing at whatever they tried to do later. (To be fair though, Kogoro often has a completely legitimate reason for being at most of the cases - like he was contacted by unrelated clients.) The reason why I don't think Kogoro is being targeted generally for being a possible investigator by Bourbon, but only for his involvement as a possible helper in Akai's faked death is because the BO has a severe problem with poor internal communication. (Incidentally the same problem the Conan and his allies and the FBI/CIA have.) Pretty much everyone except Vodka only maybe sort of (who is Gin's secretary, not Bourbon's) doesn't talk about past cases. I don't think there is a public BO database where people put reports like the following:

---

Mission Report XXX from Vodka
I was set to meet with and then eliminate a guy called Itakura who was making a program that does classified stuff. After he failed to enter the password correctly I called him up and we changed the meeting time at XX to early that morning at YY. I went to meet him, but someone tried to trap the Organization by leaving a blank disk with some trackers on it. No one was the room, but the watchers reported several homeless guys and a kid who entered the station. Gin thinks we were set up by someone that Itakura hired who may be doing some sniffing around the Org. I later found out Itakura was killed the night before the meeting by an unrelated client Itakura had stiffed, and that private detective Mouri Kogoro solved the case after being hired to find him by some of Itakura's civilian clients.

P.S. Gin was mean to me
Obviously a real report would be a lot more detailed, but I'm too lazy to write all of it. Chances are the Black Org agents feel the same about paperwork.

---

My point is that the BO's actions so far have been consistent with groups of people acting on only the info that they seem to know about firsthand or can gather from public sources easily, and not like people who itemize, database, and cross index searchable detailed mission and incident reports and analyses that are meticulously generated after every relevant incident. If they did, the alarming number of times Kogoro's name had come up (Akemi's death, Shinkansen bombing, Tequila's death, Numabuchi being recaptured) would have raised flags even before Vermouth showed up. In 700, Gin has only just now started to notice the number of incidents in Beika and Haido wards. If there was a database that he paid attention to, he would have picked up on that sooner, and the recurring people involved.

This brings me too an unrelated point. I think Vodka is the most dangerous BO member for Conan. Vodka is the one who remembers things and is Gin's version of the Detective Boys: Vodka remembers something that is related, or points out a pattern, and then Gin has a brainstorm and forms a logical connection. Gin forgets people (Halloween Party), but Vodka files it away for future reference, and Vodka has connections to a lot of Conan's BO cases. When, at the end, Gin finally figures out Conan is behind everything and goes after him, it will be Vodka who said the thing that tipped Gin off.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say about Akai and the stakeout. The only guy who showed up was the old man that Camel told to leave (and presumably he did). No other Black Org members showed up, so the level of FBI force doesn't matter. It's pretty clear the Black Org plan was to send in a lookout (the old man) who would then report back with what the situation was like. Gin would then decide if he thought Moroboshi Dai was trustworthy. If the man said bad things, didn't use the secret codeword to tell Gin he wasn't being coerced, or he never reported back at all, Gin wouldn't show up and the Org would assume Dai was a traitor.

[unclesporkums]

Great stuff as usual, Chekov!

Also...

---

P.S. Gin was mean to me

---

I'm lovin' it!

[kuro_shiro]

I am not arguing that Kogoro isn't suspicous. On the contrary, Kogoro is highly suspicious, and generally so because of the high correlation between his presence at BO related cases and then the BO failing at whatever they tried to do later. (To be fair though, Kogoro often has a completely legitimate reason for being at most of the cases - like he was contacted by unrelated clients.) The reason why I don't think Kogoro is being targeted generally for being a possible investigator by Bourbon, but only for his involvement as a possible helper in Akai's faked death is because the BO has a severe problem with poor internal communication. (Incidentally the same problem the Conan and his allies and the FBI/CIA have.) Pretty much everyone except Vodka only maybe sort of (who is Gin's secretary, not Bourbon's) doesn't talk about past cases. 

yes kogoro is highly suspicious(how did i forgot about that file ) and the fact that the "le cocktail" was bombed it means BO learned about it .but then wouldn't it mean kogoro's investigation is too late.
and again yes GIN is forgetful but only if the case was completed and closed without any problems(according to him shinichi died due to drug and that's it) however in the case of UD ,who is as dangerous to org as akai shuuichi, and also our forgetful gin remembered that all previous confrontation with UD(and sherry) happened in haido and beika cty neighbourhood.

when a case is solved we forget about it(exception exists) but when it is unsolved(resolution case coms next week) or an unsolved thing remains(like shiho's mothers tape and akemi's message's PS etc) we continously ponder about it
gin is same

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say about Akai and the stakeout. The only guy who showed up was the old man that Camel told to leave (and presumably he did). No other Black Org members showed up, so the level of FBI force doesn't matter. Its pretty clear the Black Org plan was to send in a lookout (the old man) who would then report back with what the situation was like. Gin would then decide if he thought Moroboshi Dai was trustworthy. If the man said bad things, didn't use the secret codeword to tell Gin he wasn't being coerced, or he never reported back at all, Gin wouldn't show up and the Org would assume Dai was a traitor.

if akai took an idiot it means he would have taken smart guys with him as well on the stakeout.
what i meant was capturing of gin was considerd highly important to akai that's why there were armed fbi's all over the meeting place  to capture him instead of him alone trying to get more trust.
so capturing gin should have taken a prority and he should have again caled fbi'd to ccatch hi i the act(along with the rest)
well BO sure didn't knew about how many were present but its not like they can't have asked the old man to see how many people walk out of the place until tomorrow .

i confused about this one  thing

Spoiler:

do you think bourbon should investigate kogoro or not?

and it just struck me that bourbon might be one of gin's "tons of secret weopen lying about "  as said in file 504

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

i confused about this one  thing
do you think bourbon should investigate kogoro or not?

I think Bourbon is investigating Kogoro, but the reason Bourbon is investigating is only because he thinks Kogoro might have helped Akai or is hiding him. I do not think Bourbon is investigating Kogoro for other reasons, although Bourbon may uncover something about Conan that may make him want to investigate Conan more deeply. For now, I think Bourbon is going to get sidetracked by Sera and focus priority on her rather than Conan and Kogoro. It's probably lucky she deleted her pictures of Haibara, because if Bourbon does a room raid and checks her computer, he could have found something incriminating.