Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

[casualvgm]

Who is Bourbon!?
he is calvados.

[sstimson]

I started a PM Debate with Chekhov. She answered with a lot of things about Bourbon, his ideas and motives but as far as I can tell she has never proven that Bourbon does indeed exist. I am making this thread because the one before this one dealing with the same subject seem to have disappeared. Below is the last reply I sent to Chekhov with her response removed by Kor with this is my reply. (edited and cleaned up for hopefully better understanding)

[Kor - removed PM] -

Spoiler:

I only posted the reply because she said she did not need protection and for a starting point to my response. Beside most of that PM was another attack on me and should have been safe for others to read

my response

You theory about Bourbon only works if Bourbon exist.

I gave you three ways to prove Bourbon exist

1) Prove Bourbon exist

2) Prove the BO trust Kir so completely as to have no doubts as to Kir being a completely loyal agent and that Kir killed Akai.

3) Show me an example of the BO talking about Bourbon without Kir being nearby.

Any one of the above will do it (prove Bourbon exist).

And even though you know why I think he does not, I will try to explain again for you

First the source was Kir. Unlike you, I am not convinced they do not believe Kir did not come back as a loyal agent. I believe they think she came back as a spy because

1) Her return was almost bloodless. If I was the BO, I would think I need to fight to get her back and much more blood should have been shed.

2) Even though I know you disagree, and I can not prove it, I believe the BO must have a spy in the FBI. The BO must know what the other agencies are doing in respect to them. They must be sure they do not walk in to a trap. I will admit it is possible that Haibara could be lying about the BO works, and maybe they have just been lucky, and because of that they survive, and avoid the other agencies traps, but history makes that unlikely. It seem to me that to survive this long and have still very little know about them means they are likely to be a huge and very well informed organization. That should mean Intel from other agencies that are working against them, which helps keep the BO ahead of the law. I use that comment of Gins as possible evidence of this and simple logic.

2a) With #2 being true, the BO should know the return of Kir is as a spy on the BO, and not for the BO. They are using her as a double agent to help hide their plans from both the CIA and FBI, again staying a step or two ahead of the Law. They might have even given her a mission to act as a spy for the BO on the FBI or CIA. With that being true, any information that she gets must be suspect and can not be trust to be real. Yes, Kir is doing her job, and reporting what she believes to be true, the problem is the BO is feeding her misinformation. If they were to feed her real information, she might help bring down the BO, and I do not think the BO would take that chance.

3) Her murder of Akai is also suspect. Yes it seem like it was carried out and most of the lower members and the public believe it was carried out, but the higher ups have their doubts. Again this hurts any change of Kir learning any true Intel about the BO.

4) Maybe you can now see part of the reason I think Bourbon is nothing more then a code word, a test to see if Kir is leaking Intel or not. I did see the BO talk about Bourbon, but only when Kir is there. They have good reason to make her believe that Bourbon is real. If Kir learned the truth about Bourbon being a test code word, she would know her cover was blown and vanish. I think the BO is hoping to get some real Intel from Kir on the other guys (FBI, CIA).

By the way I did look some of your Bourbon ideas, but like I am trying to say I have MAJOR doubts about his existence, and as such, need to point them out. You told me once I was breaking Oczar razor with my theories and this time you might be doing the same with your theory about Bourbon.  All I am asking is that you prove his existence.

Let me summarize why I have problems with Bourbon existence

1) The source - If Kir is under any kind of suspicion of being an anti BO agent in the BO, then for the BO survival, they must either kill her, feel her false information, or basically keep her under lock and key until they know one way of the other

2) {Not Provable} Spy in FBI for BO. The BO needs to know what the FBI knows to survive. Lack of this kind of information could get the BO into a sting. They may be using Kir as this, in which case misinformation is going both ways.

3) Scar Akai - If Scar Akai is not bourbon ( because remember Bourbon existence is in question ), then it is either a look alike or Akai. And if Akai, then the BO would know Kir faked Akai death and that would further weaken her standing of being a reliable source of Intel.

4) The ease of her return - I sure the BO must know that return was way too easy. And if #2 is right, they also know that she failed to kill again the driver at that time.

There you have four reasons why I doubt the existence of Bourbon.

[Kor]

Don't ever post the private message of another member without their agreement.

The other thread you were referring to didn't disappear. I merged it with the main Bourbon thread. We just don't need a new thread for every theory or debate. I'm gonna do the same thing with this one as well.

[sstimson]

I have chek ok to post and I send it to you, so while I understand red letter, in this case I am ok

[me=Stopwatch]awaits sstimon's and Chekhov's arrival[/me]
I might add my own opinion on this later though...

Arrived

Well, it sort of depends on who Scar Akai and Okiya are. If Okiya is Akai, then even if Bourbon doesn't exist someone's dressing as Scar Akai to fool the FBI, so who would that be? I think it would be supremely cool if Bourbon was nothing but a trap, but it would also be a slight letdown if Scar Akai was just Vermouth or somebody messing with us.

If Okiya's not Akai or Bourbon, and is just some guy, and Akai is actually Scar Akai who really has lost his memories, then it would be an awful lot of red herrings and kind of a wtf twist, but again, the BO fooling Kir like that? It'd be awesome.

@Kleene: Really? XD Do you remember which thread? Since I'd like to read it.

As Bourbon was only a test for Kir and they is no such member in the BO, I will not ask any member to tell and ask Bourbon anything unless Kir is present.

Anyway that the last time till now I typed it.

Opinion #2. As Gosho has sets up characters to look like bad guys when there they are good and Vice Vera, I am hoping for that here. I would like to see Sera become a another short time character and become completely unimportant to the main plot. I would like to see Bourbon be nothing more then a loyalty test for Kir. I would like to see Scar Akai be Akai. I want twist and turns then none or very few see coming. After all without them the series begins what Tvtropes call Adaptation Decay only in this case it is more like jumping the shark. What I mean is I do not want to see a point in DC where it decays to the point where as everything is now known and  there is no more reason to watch but to see what you know will happen, happen. I truly hope Dc NEVER reaches this point

and that is the one before it. Anyway if you want me to see if I can find the first, just ask or PM.

- Bourbon doesn't exist, It's a trap

I would not call it a trap unless it is to trap Kir. It is much more likely to be a loyalty test for Kir and a way to see if any intel is leaking out of the BO.

[makoto]

but maybe the org gave a fake info to kir to see if she's not with the FBI by watching what happen if the FBI get to know this as we never seen concret thing about bourbon

[sstimson]

but maybe the org gave a fake info to kir to see if she's not with the FBI by watching what happen if the FBI get to know this as we never seen concret thing about bourbon

meaning maybe Bourbon is not real, but a code / intel to test for a leak?

[makoto]

yes exactly what i think it is
but my englsih is not that good sorry bout that

[sstimson]

yes exactly what i think it is
but my englsih is not that good sorry bout that

Welcome to maybe Bourbon does not exist. Glad to see others with this possible point of view.

Spoiler:

sometimes it is lonely being with a different POV

[makoto]

hahaha i can imagine this
but our point of view is credible and all

[sstimson]

yes currently in the minority but maybe growing. Still waiting for the proof of Bourbon existence

[makoto]

me too all we have is okiya,scar akai ans sera but nothing prooves who they

[kkslider5552000]

And Then There Were No MermaidsBourbons

[sstimson]

Waiting for the Book / Movie / Play / Broadway show / TV Series / Facebook page / Internet Site / Etc. ...

[makoto]

in other and less words waiting after gosho

[sstimson]

And Then There Were No MermaidsBourbons

He  is referring to an episode called "And then there were no mermaids" ( Episodes 224 - 226)

I on the other hand am doing a word play on that. There was a book by Agatha Christie called "And then there were none"

I am suggesting that I am waiting for "Then there were no Bourbons" to appear in some kind of media like the AC book which is found in many different kinds of medias.