Okiya Subaru's True Identity

[sstimson]

1 Vermouth try to protect Akai. She tell him that her Daughter (Chris) in disguise

Hey I am also very convinced that Sharon and Chris were never the same person. Happy to read that I am not alone.

however, I am acctually pretty keen to know what you all think about my 3rd theory.
I would appreciate any kind of comment
thanks for reading

Please your Sharon is not Chris thoughts to this thread Here

[S.G.T.]

I don't think I understand you completly. If Scar Akai get a hold of the tape that Gin watch during the assasination (since he's BO). He would know what kind of scar to make.

Yeah , could be. However if Bourbon is SA, disguising as SA and try to lure out the FBI would not make any kind of sence from the point of view of bourbon. If Akai , Kir and the FBI worked together to fake Akais death(and thats what bourbon might think) the FBI would know excectly Akais Scared face so that it would not be enough to place a scar on the right cheek to trick the FBI(The scar should be identicaly to akais real scar and since nobody could predict from a tape the development of a scar bourbon would not dissguise as SA in the first place).
Moreover I was never sure how much you could see on this tape since Kir is turning her head and so the camera in the collar to her left while shooting on akai.

Can you point out the page please. The closest I see is she say "the man" since he's quickly go away and she ask Conan about him but didn't identify him. In "Contact of Bo" case she only turn and see nothing.

Yeah excectly she says "the man" which mean she could judge his Gender. I dont claime she knows him very well but it could be that she saw him when she was still in BO. Also Akai says at file 434 that it would be better Ai does not sees him. Which means he thinks Ai could know him or recognize him.

Because bourbon thought that BO boss probably wouldn't believed it too that akai is dead , so Oikiya putted himself in best possition of being the investegator of this akai case. And considered if the third theory (red 3) is right, Bourbons insist would make even more sense.He insisted so that he had a reason to create a Scar Akai disguise.

Ok sorry this makes only sense if the 3rd theory is right.
He insisted so that he had a reason to create a Scar Akai disguise so that Akai can walk around without worrying being shoot by BO. (Here I am arguing towards my 3rd theory) Of Course Shu could have moved somewhere BO could not find him (instead of acting as in my 3rd theory) but that would be out of his character.

I'm also pretty convince that the couple that stalking Conan's group is Billy and Fusae

Yes there is a very high probability of Billy and fusae being the stalkers. Still there is the possebility that Aoyama discarded them.
BTW I found out by accident that in the BunkyÅ

[User 4869]

Yeah , could be. However if Bourbon is SA, disguising as SA and try to lure out the FBI would not make any kind of sence from the point of view of bourbon. If Akai , Kir and the FBI worked together to fake Akais death(and thats what bourbon might think) the FBI would know excectly Akais Scared face so that it would not be enough to place a scar on the right cheek to trick the FBI(The scar should be identicaly to akais real scar and since nobody could predict from a tape the development of a scar bourbon would not dissguise as SA in the first place). Moreover I was never sure how much you could see on this tape since Kir is turning her head and so the camera in the collar to her left while shooting on akai.

The incident when the shooting occure may vary, mean even you plan it this way, but it could turn out difference. The scar he has is burn scar, mean it presumably create by fire so it may appear at random, anyway.

If Akai , Kir and the FBI worked together to fake Akais death (and thats what bourbon might think)

If Bourbon did not take the time to ask Vermouth about how Jodie react -yes.

Yeah excectly she says "the man" which mean she could judge his Gender. I dont claime she knows him very well but it could be that she saw him when she was still in BO. Also Akai says at file 434 that it would be better Ai does not sees him. Which means he thinks Ai could know him or recognize him.

The point is, she saw him enough to point out his gender but didn't say out loud that "It's Moroboshi Dai" but instead ask Conan (for more information) so I think she didn't get a good look at him. I believe she will recognize him if see directly, that's why he avoid her.

Ok sorry this makes only sense if the 3rd theory is right.
He insisted so that he had a reason to create a Scar Akai disguise so that Akai can walk around without worrying being shoot by BO. (Here I am arguing towards my 3rd theory) Of Course Shu could have moved somewhere BO could not find him (instead of acting as in my 3rd theory) but that would be out of his character.

Considered your 3rd theory, I may look like try to counter this but..
1 "Akai" appear on TV in bank robber case was not plan out, he try to appear before FBI but show no sign of letting BO know.
2 Subaru went on his own to investigate S.A. (ask about his cap? or just said I have a question to the one Jodie ask about the cap). If he in the plan he will know already who S.A. and won't bother to investigate. What he tell Conan about looking for someone in the TV on the Bank rober case would be completely lie and so random.
3  If he plan to use the disguise to protect Akai. Bourbon should consider have Vermouth tell other first. On the other hand, if the disguise mean to use for FBI, consider Bourbon secrecy attitude, he would not tell them.
4 Subaru avoid being seen by S.A. Why?

I never really understood the real meaning of the next conan hint of episode 503 "bullet" for episode 504. For what was that a Hint? please help.

People often interpret this in two way.

1 Akai, the silver bullet, will dies. or
2. The bullet used in that episode has something wrong, the only time it use = Kir shoot Akai. The bullet are fake?

[S.G.T.]

The incident when the shooting occure may vary, mean even you plan it this way, but it could turn out difference. The scar he has is burn scar, mean it presumably create by fire so it may appear at random, anyway.

I think you missunderstood me. I didn't wanted to say that FBI Shu and Kir planned the scar. I rather wanted to express that if it is the case that Bourbon thinks FBI Akai and kir worked together Bourbon must come to the conclusion that if FBI was in the planning involved they must have seen Shu after the shooting, so creating a mask would be useless for bourbon.
BTW the scar you get by blank bullets are burning scars since the injurie you gain by very hot steam or gas and that is the definition of a Burn Scar (by fire ,hot steam,chemical reaction and so on)

If Bourbon did not take the time to ask Vermouth about how Jodie react -yes.

I never thought about this possibility.
I thought about it and did not like it because of Vermouths secretive character. I mean she is not the typ to spread around news. To get this information Bourbon must have gone directly to her and asked her a very specific question and this is not very probably. I mean he must have asked every person in the org by chance if anybody saw some FBI reaction , or just BO Boss if anybody saw some FBI reaction. But it doesn't seems to me as if it is easy to receive informations from BO Boss. Moreover I don't have the impression that it is easy for BO member to receive informations about the activity or missions of other members. The only possibility is that Vermouth worked for Bourbon which is not very probably since she receives her missions from BO Boss directly.
However if it took a very long time for Bourbon to get the info it would explain why it took so long till S.A. appeared.

The point is, she saw him enough to point out his gender but didn't say out loud that "It's Moroboshi Dai" but instead ask Conan (for more information) so I think she didn't get a good look at him. I believe she will recognize him if see directly, that's why he avoid her.

Firstly I think it would be out of her character to inform Conan especially if she is not sure or it is personal stuff. Secondly she probably did not recognise him at once since he cut his hair. And than actually I wanted to show that when AI and Shu "met" each other that she did not had her BO feeling but rather had just an "hold on , doesn't I know him from anywhere(probably from BO)" moment.

Considered your 3rd theory, I may look like try to counter this but..
1 "Akai" appear on TV in bank robber case was not plan out, he try to appear before FBI but show no sign of letting BO know.
2 Subaru went on his own to investigate S.A. (ask about his cap? or just said I have a question to the one Jodie ask about the cap). If he in the plan he will know already who S.A. and won't bother to investigate. What he tell Conan about looking for someone in the TV on the Bank rober case would be completely lie and so random.
3  If he plan to use the disguise to protect Akai. Bourbon should consider have Vermouth tell other first. On the other hand, if the disguise mean to use for FBI, consider Bourbon secrecy attitude, he would not tell them.
4 Subaru avoid being seen by S.A. Why?

1. I am not sure what you wanted to express , could you be so kind to be more precise thanks.
2. We do not know what Okiya asked the Lady that is a problem to counter my theory. He could have asked her about Jodie Camel or others who was interested in S.A. hat.
Also it could be that when he told conan about a person he is looking for could be someone completly else who where involved in the bank robber case. Probably the same person why Shu was there (In that case shu is investagating about someone who is not introduced yet).
3.can not disagree
4. That is indeed a good question. There I can only spaculate. Like Okiya went directly to him and they had a conference about if it is save for Shu in public or something like that.  Happily it would not be the first time that something happend the reader could not read. Sorry I ain't got a better explanation.

In the Anime we can only see and hear the first bullet capsule droping to ground. There is no second bullet capsule.

Best regards S.G.T.

[User 4869]

Firstly I think it would be out of her character to inform Conan especially if she is not sure or it is personal stuff. Secondly she probably did not recognise him at once since he cut his hair. And than actually I wanted to show that when AI and Shu "met" each other that she did not had her BO feeling but rather had just an "hold on , doesn't I know him from anywhere(probably from BO)" moment.

Look at their secend meeting (Contact with B case) Ai "feel" someone behind and turn back in panic, yet Shu was not their anymore. She did not see him in those case but react. This still maybe count as "stare senser" though her panic face make me believe somthing else"

I thought about it and did not like it because of Vermouths secretive character. I mean she is not the typ to spread around news.

I see that incident as here Vermouth work for BO not just personal interest. Look the incident in Kir transport case which she did tell Gin where is Akai's truck. Why? because she was sent to located him. In this case her knowledge about Jodie shoud be share between members (especially Gin who lead the operation-But that's not the point) and Bourbon, who did not believe Akai's dead would get a hand on this information rather easily.

Well, double think that, since Vernouth was the only one that suspect Kir mean she may went to observe only for herself. I'm not sure now.

1 "Akai" appear on TV in bank robber case was not plan out, he try to appear before FBI but show no sign of letting BO know.
1. I am not sure what you wanted to express , could you be so kind to be more precise thanks.

I almost cannot recall what I am talking about LoL. I mean to say that if Subaru plan to use Akai disguise to allow real one to walk freely. He should tell BO first so people with Akai's face won't get shot on sight. BO see him because he appear on TV, yet that is not planned out. So if not by chance (That he appear on TV). Bo will stii don't know about "Suaru=Scar Akai" and Akai would still in danger if sight by BO.

2. We do not know what Okiya asked the Lady that is a problem to counter my theory. He could have asked her about Jodie Camel or others who was interested in S.A. hat.

How he suppose to know that Jodie or someone interest in S.A. hat? He only see Jodie ask about it after he is in the department store. The reason he went there won't be answer. But if he interest in the hat that will be explain why he's there.

- Also it could be that when he told conan about a person he is looking for could be someone completly else who where involved in the bank robber case. Probably the same person why Shu was there (In that case shu is investagating about someone who is not introduced yet).

Possible, but since said person yet to be seen (after a long time) and we see only S.A. on TV. I would feel cheated if said person won't appear before the conclusion. And what about "I see him but did not talk to him. He's lool like someone I know for a long time but is not said person" and this also the person Subaru say he saw on TV. S.A. match this description completely and has no candidates (We don't see anyone else that Subaru take interest in). I find it hard to think of someone else.

[S.G.T.]

I almost cannot recall what I am talking about LoL. I mean to say that if Subaru plan to use Akai disguise to allow real one to walk freely. He should tell BO first so people with Akai's face won't get shot on sight. BO see him because he appear on TV, yet that is not planned out. So if not by chance (That he appear on TV). Bo will stii don't know about "Suaru=Scar Akai" and Akai would still in danger if sight by BO.

Shu would be in danger as much as Bourbon if the "Bourbon = S.A." theory is right. As we could see, nothing happend to S.A. whoever he might be.

How he suppose to know that Jodie or someone interest in S.A. hat? He only see Jodie ask about it after he is in the department store. The reason he went there won't be answer. But if he interest in the hat that will be explain why he's there.

He asked the Saleswoman for further information. a Random example:Okiya:"I see those two asked for the hat did anybody else asked for it? "or so.

As for your other points , I just wanted to proof that it is not obligatory to be convinced that Shu = Subaru and S.A. = Bourbon , and I think I did so.
Morerover I wanted to show that my theory is not impossible, even though it seems very unlikely.
I am also convinced that S.A. = Bourbon has a probality of more than 90% , but I would be very pleased if at the end of the Bourbon arc. I would be suprised.

[User 4869]

Shu would be in danger as much as Bourbon if the "Bourbon = S.A." theory is right.

Unless Akai appears as Subaru.

As we could see, nothing happend to S.A. whoever he might be.

But almost happen. Thank to Vermouth it's not happen.

He asked the Saleswoman for further information.

Why Subaru went to the department store in the first place if not for the hat?

[S.G.T.]

Shu would be in danger as much as Bourbon if the "Bourbon = S.A." theory is right.

Unless Akai appears as Subaru.

As we could see, nothing happend to S.A. whoever he might be.

But almost happen. Thank to Vermouth it's not happen.

I am not to sure what you you wanted to say. However , I will try to make my point more clear.
What I wanted to express is that in both cases or in both theorys or even in every theory I know about S.A.'s real identity,the open appearance infront of BO is a lack in every theory .
No matter if Bourbon = S.A. or S.A.=Shu or in every imaginable constellation , there was always a risk for S.A. in any case.
Sadly my theory just as many other theorys does not give a good explanation for this risky behavior. Only that we know that Shu has or had a risky behavior. Something we can not say from Bourbon since we do not know to much about him. I personaly would not expect from a person with a reputation like bourbon to be risky.

Why Subaru went to the department store in the first place if not for the hat?

Sadly therfore I only can give you the at least for you unsatisfying answer I gave you before. :
he was looking for someone completly else who where involved in the bank robber case. Probably the same person why Shu was there (In that case shu is investagating about someone who is not introduced yet).
There where in some forums the claim that in case 678 on page 11 the woman who has a single appearance in her own box might be Yoko Oginome(japanese singer and tv star).
Just an suggastion. I am not a fan of this theory but I never claimed to have a better proposal.
However, I must honestly admit that the small faith I had in my theory from the begining melts in relation to how much we have to wait to an conclusion.

[thorongil]

sorry to shove this in between but i don't currently feel like reading 40 pages of about a theory i already have my mind set up about... i only read the first page and the ten post or so before this one... so i may be excused... but i really enjoy reading your thoughts...

but i want to raise a question which bothers me about the okiya=boubon theories... what reason would boubon have who seems to be investigating akais death to live in kudo shinichis house who is according to BO files dead, or asks some prof to live with him... while it would be pretty much easier to just rent some apartment where he could live alone and do much more secretive things unnoticed than with having people around, or am i overlooking something with this question?

[Dus]

And that's why it's a bad idea not to read ANYTHING before posting.
Do yourself a favour and read this:
viewtopic.php?t=402.270msg37837#msg37837

[Abs.]

Hey, Aragorn did read the "first page and the ten post or so before this one" - Chek's post is all the way on Page 19, surely he can't be expected to see whether someone has already answered all his questions on Page 19 come on man

[thorongil]

@abs... page 19 was how i hit that thread via the reference thread, but still thx... (i hope you were'nt be ironic, , cos i know one should read something whole before asking questions but i didn't want to forget while reading these 40p)
and i seem to have forgotten that my question was already answered there... just flew over it again because it seems it most likely has the main fact's mentioned and i did observe something again.. which i'm now unsure whether to post or not ... maybe i read this whole thread first... don't want to make fun of myself...

[Puto]

[quote="Chekhov MacGuffin"]
"Okiya Subaru", "Moroboshi Dai", and "Akai Shuuichi" are all references to Mobile Suit Gundam character Char Aznable.
The “Akaiâ€

[Kaito Lady]

I just cant accept the theory that (scar)akai is okiya...its sounds so....impossible

its sounds more probable to me the theory that sera is shinichi's lost sister

[GinRei]

I just cant accept the theory that (scar)akai is okiya...its sounds so....impossible

Who's saying that Okiya is Scarkai?  I've seen Okiya is Akai (most likely the most popular theory), but not that he's Scarkai.  They were seen in the same place at the same time, and in relatively similar places at the same time.  It's flat out impossible.