Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I think:

Okiya = Akai.
Scar Akai = Bourbon.
Agasa = Anokata.

Agasa = Anokata. that idea has been around for so long someone need to look deep into it

It's grasping at straws trying to pin the role on a known character. It's not a very well thought out idea, honestly, because it doesn't make much sense and would make for an unsatisfying ending. Why would the boss spend so much time ordering his subordinates to kill Sherry when he is sheltering her himself? Also, Vermouth described the boss as very, very cautious, and the situation was that she was talking to Gin so lying wouldn't make much sense. Would a cautious guy like that help a boy who is trying to destroy the Organization? If the boss was Agasa, he would have known Vermouth was doing naughty things early on in the Vermouth arc, so he would have called her back much earlier.  
Even supposing boss Agasa was keeping Shiho and Shinichi around because they might be useful, why hasn't he taken any measures to make sure Conan doesn't get himself killed on cases like he routinely does? Also why hasn't he told his subordinates to avoid killing them - like Gin ordered in the aftermath of the failed Domon assassination? It would idiotic to want one thing and order your underlings to do the exact opposite, and I don't think an idiot could run the Org and keep someone like Gin in line.

[kentasaiba]

Or like Chekhovs avatar.
Akai= red Okiya=white
red + white is pink, just like Okiyas pinafore

[kkakaroto9]

What do you think about this ?

Spoiler:

Iam talking about the informant of the black organization , in the Red and Black Clash ( i dont know how to write in english )

Do you think that Bourbon could be active before we know ?

Or Finally camel is from the black organization , and thats why Camel did that when Rye ( akai ) was going to meet Gin two years before.

Or someone of the hospital ( the director maybe )

Or someone of that secundary agents of the FBI

Or Maybe James Black o.O  xD

[Dus]

I'm fairly sure they're talking about Kiichiro Numabuchi.

[kkakaroto9]

I'm fairly sure they're talking about Kiichiro Numabuchi.

So, the black organization didn´t know that Kiichiro Numabuchi was dead ?

[Dus]

How would they know? He was their only inside man.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I'm fairly sure they're talking about Kiichiro Numabuchi.

You mean Kusuda Rikumichi. Numabuchi was the guy who escaped in the forest during Mitsuhiko's firefly hunt.

[Dus]

I'm fairly sure they're talking about Kiichiro Numabuchi.

You mean Kusuda Rikumichi. Numabuchi was the guy who escaped in the forest during Mitsuhiko's firefly hunt.

Yes, that's who I mean. I merely looked at a list of "former BO members" and copied the first name that I didn't immediately recognize.

[User 4869]

What do you think about this ?

Spoiler:

Iam talking about the informant of the black organization , in the Red and Black Clash ( i dont know how to write in english )

Do you think that Bourbon could be active before we know ?

Or Finally camel is from the black organization , and thats why Camel did that when Rye ( akai ) was going to meet Gin two years before.

Or someone of the hospital ( the director maybe )

Or someone of that secundary agents of the FBI

Or Maybe James Black o.O   xD

Am I the only one that think the informant is Vermouth? She did tell Gin where Akai is. Look like Boss want his trust subordinate to do special thing (locate Akai). Boss gave specific order for Vermouth before, like when she participate in Domon assasination case (Chainti ask why this ooman here and Gin reply that Anokata order her to be here) And Gin attitude when talking about the Informant seem fit with his attitude to Vermouth (I don't really want to rely on that infromant anyway).
I didn't reread the topic but I think someone already point out that to say such thing is an effort to make Camel suspicious and I believe him/her.

BO know Kiichiro Numabuchi  Kusuda Rikumichi's death. Akai say he should have periodic contact with the BO and when it stop BO will know he's dead or captured (I also heard about this idea from other detective novel)

And Vodka say they lost contact with Kusuda Rikumichi so they send more in and spot many FBI (Jame Black call for reinforcment so it's easy to spot and this where Camel come in)






Answering that's not the reason I enter this thread. I type the following and wonder what thread I should post in. Bourbon Identity Thread or Subaru Identity Thread.



I just wander. what if the converation after Scar Akai left the department store went this way.

Vermouth (ride motorcycle and stop by Gin): That Burn guy is really Shuichi but don't kill him yet for some random reason.
Gin : Did you get Authorize from Anokata.
Vermouth : Yes, He's the type of repeatly step on Stone bridge to test its Sturdiness (let his enemy live ) until it really broke (Plan backfire because Akai is dangerous)
Gin : That bastard (Akai) irratiat me as usaull. The one like sherlock holms, who manage to forsee that I will order Kir to kill him. (Kir said earlier that only way to fake Akai death is to foresee the situation and only conan sherlock holms can do that)

I didn't leave out counter-evident and I do believe that Subaru is Akai and Scar Akai is Bourbon. But I just can't help interpret this situation this way.

And yes, I can't see what reason Anokata let Akai live because it's him who lables Akai as Silver Bullet therefor his biggest threat, thus nothing can worth more than Akai's life and he should took his chance.


On the opposite side, I try to make the conversation fit with "Subaru = Akai and Scar Akai = Bourbon" theory

Vermouth : That Burn guy is really Bourbon so don't shoot him.
Gin : Did you get Authorize from Anokata.(Why do Gin need Authorize to not shoot his own comrade? Or is he don't trust Vermouth source that say Scar Akai is Bourbon so he want Anokata's word)
Vermouth : Yes, He's the type of repeatly step on Stone bridge to test its Sturdiness (Check for his biggest enemy death to be sure even all report say he dead) until it really broke (this part of sentece is part of the proverb about Stone brigde thing so no specific meaning )
Gin : That bastard (Bourbon) irratiat me as usaull (so we don't talk much and I almost gunned down him). The one like sherlock holms (As Kir said Bourbon is very good detective),


Repeat: Don't ask me to explain why all evidence point to Subaru = Akai becuase I believe them and cannot counter them. I just try to understand the conversation better

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

What do you think about this ?

Spoiler:

Am I the only one that think the informant is Vermouth? She did tell Gin where Akai is. Look like Boss want his trust subordinate to do special thing (locate Akai). Boss gave specific order for Vermouth before, like when she participate in Domon assasination case (Chainti ask why this ooman here and Gin reply that Anokata order her to be here) And Gin attitude when talking about the Informant seem fit with his attitude to Vermouth (I don't really want to rely on that infromant anyway).
I didn't reread the topic but I think someone already point out that to say such thing is an effort to make Camel suspicious and I believe him/her.
BO know Kiichiro Numabuchi Kusuda Rikumichi's death. Akai say he should have periodic contact with the BO and when it stop BO will know he's dead or captured (I also heard about this idea from other detective novel)
And Vodka say they lost contact with Kusuda Rikumichi so they send more in and spot many FBI (Jame Black call for reinforcment so it's easy to spot and this where Camel come in)

I'm split on whether Gin meant Rikumichi or Vermouth. You are definitely right that the whole scene was meant to falsely make Camel seem suspicious.

Vermouth (ride motorcycle and stop by Gin): That Burn guy is really Shuichi but don't kill him yet for some random reason.
Gin : Did you get Authorize from Anokata.
Vermouth : Yes, He's the type of repeatly step on Stone bridge to test its Sturdiness (let his enemy live ) until it really broke (Plan backfire because Akai is dangerous)
Gin : That bastard (Akai) irratiat me as usaull. The one like sherlock holms, who manage to forsee that I will order Kir to kill him. (Kir said earlier that only way to fake Akai death is to foresee the situation and only conan sherlock holms)

I didn't leave out counter-evident and I do believe that Subaru is Akai and Scar Akai is Bourbon. But I just can't help interpret this situation this way.
And yes, I can't see what reason Anokata let Akai live because it's him who lables Akai as Silver Bullet therefor his biggest threat, thus nothing can worth more than Akai's life and he should took his chance.

On the opposite side, I try to make the conversation fit with "Subaru = Akai and Scar Akai = Bourbon" theory
Vermouth : That Burn guy is really Bourbon so don't shoot him.
Gin : Did you get Authorize from Anokata.(Why do Gin need Authorize to not shoot his own comrade? Or is he don't trust Vermouth source that say Scar Akai is Bourbon so he want Anokata's word)
Vermouth : Yes, He's the type of repeatly step on Stone bridge to test its Sturdiness (Check for his biggest enemy death to be sure even all report say he dead) until it really broke (this part of sentece is part of the proverb about Stone brigde thing so no specific meaning )
Gin : That bastard (Bourbon) irratiat me as usaull (so we don't talk much and I almost gunned down him). The one like sherlock holms (As Kir said Bourbon is very good detective),

Repeat: Don't ask me to explain why all evidence point to Subaru = Akai becuase I believe them and cannot counter them. I just try to understand the conversation better

The bridge line is referring a saying that roughly goes like this in English: "Test even a stone bridge before crossing it". (or see here) Before modern building codes existed, it made sense to test a rickety wooden ridge to make sure it can bear your weight. Therefore, someone who who doesn't assume a steady looking stone bridge will not break under them and tests it before crossing means they are very vigilant and cautious. Vermouth twisted to saying further to say the boss is the kind to break the stone bridge in the process of testing it out, presumably because he tested it many times repeatedly. Basically the boss is super careful perhaps even to the point where he ruins himself.

My interpretation of that line was that Vermouth was reminding Gin to be like the boss and not to get ahead of himself about scar Akai. Gin should evaluate the situation carefully first while making no assumptions. After scrutinizing scar Akai, Gin realized that scar Akai was not the real Akai, and Gin figured out who was under the mask by deciding that only Bourbon up to no good would have the motives to appear as Akai.
I'm not sure whether Vermouth knows that Bourbon is in disguise as Akai, or only has a vague idea that Bourbon is up to something.

[User 4869]

I like your explaination, So Vermouth tell Gin to be supercareful, that make sense. I also has no problem understand about what stone bridge mean, just don't know what situation that sentence refering too.

but what Authorization Gin refering to
1. Did Vermouth got authorization to tell Gin not to shoot
2. Did Vermouth got authorization to be there (you just can't randomly appear where you comrade do important work).
3. Did Vermouth got authorization to dress Bourbon as Akai to lure the real one out (Wait! this go along with the Stone bridge thing. So Bourbon dress as Akai to make sure he's really dead. that how Boss careful)





By the way
About "I'm split on" whether Gin meant Rikumichi or Vermouth. I just suck at english and don't know what you mean either "I can't decide about it" or "I made a mistake about it"
If it's the first case then let me say it again that BO probably know Rikumichi is dead or captured by that point so Gin can't expect any news from him. But if it's the second case I'm sorry for brough this up.
Please correct me if I'm wrong

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I like your explaination, So Vermouth tell Gin to be supercareful, that make sense. I also has no problem understand about what stone bridge mean, just don't know what situation that sentence refering too.

The situation I was referring to was scar Akai appearing at the Beika department store and then leaving through the main entrance where Gin could see him. Gin should take that opportunity to look at scar Akai and decide whether he is the real Akai or an impostor.

but what Authorization Gin refering to

I am guessing that it is the authorization from the boss that Gin is allowed to kill scar Akai. I assume the boss's authorization would also include the approval to kill Kir because Kir would have to be an accomplice if Akai survived his "death" at Raiha pass.

1. Did Vermouth got authorization to tell Gin not to shoot.
2. Did Vermouth got authorization to be there (you just can't randomly appear where you comrade do important work).

I think Vermouth said she got the authorization for Gin to kill scar Akai (and maybe Kir), but Vermouth did not think it was a good idea for Gin to kill scar Akai without looking at him carefully to make sure scar Akai was the real Akai.

3. Did Vermouth got authorization to dress Bourbon as Akai to lure the real one out (Wait! this go along with the Stone bridge thing. So Bourbon dress as Akai to make sure he's really dead. that how Boss careful)

The boss would not have given Gin the authorization to kill scar Akai if the boss knew that Bourbon was disguising as Akai. The means that Bourbon acted on his own and disguised as Akai without telling Gin or the boss what he was up to. Vermouth may have helped Bourbon with his mask, or Bourbon may know how to disguise himself without Vermouth's help.

By the way, About "I'm split on" whether Gin meant Rikumichi or Vermouth. I just suck at english and don't know what you mean either "I can't decide about it" or "I made a mistake about it"

I meant that I can't decide whether the informant Gin referred to was Rikumichi or Vermouth. I think it is more likely Gin was referring to Vermouth, but I am not certain that is correct.

[User 4869]

I don't really think any BO member would need authorization to kill Akai because he is most dangerous enemy. It should have been "kill at first sight"
But authorization to kill Kir is possible (and most likely) because Gin need authorization to kill Pisco before. Akemi is wanted dead from the start and Sherry's fate is not yet been decide (before she escape). Only Irish that Gin decide himself and that not canon.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I don't really think any BO member would need authorization to kill Akai because he is most dangerous enemy. It should have been "kill at first sight"
But authorization to kill Kir is possible (and most likely) because Gin need authorization to kill Pisco before. Akemi is wanted dead from the start and Sherry's fate is not yet been decide (before she escape). Only Irish that Gin decide himself and that not canon.

The authorization probably included the boss's approval for scar Akai to be shot in broad daylight on the middle of a busy street. I think the location mattered more than whether it was acceptable or not to kill Akai.

[User 4869]

I see. the place to shoot does matter. Thank

Gin could contact Anokata via Mobile phone right, I assume so. then why he need authorization send via Vermouth. I think Gin ask about authorization must has something to do with what Vermouth say to Gin and we do not hear.

About No 3 in Authorization I mean this

Vermouth dress Bourbon as Akai to test if FBI up to something or is he really dead. Gin's about to shoot Bourbon. Vermouth arrive to tell Gin he's mistaken. Gin ask if Anokata approve the plan to dress Bourbon as Akai. Vermouth say yes and say Boss is careful (so he goes along with Bourbon' plan) this is what I mean. And how I intepret this scene