ranger wrote:First, let me address the Pat Riley thing - yes, he probably will take the head coach position, haha - reminds me of how Gregg Popovich as soon as Tim Duncan was drafted he became the head coach. Coaches can only be great if they have the right players. Phil Jackson, the lucky bastard, has had shaq, kobe, scotty, and MJ.
ranger wrote:A. I know this is an issue, but it's hardly a problem anymore. It was more of a problem whether if Lebron wanted to go to Miami, as he can't be "the man" because the Heat is Wade's team, and Miami is his town. He won the championship there. But it shouldn't be a problem because if Lebron is willing to sign at Miami, it means he is willing to be "second fiddle". But that "second fiddle" status will slowly disappear when he's the one winning final MVPs and having the best stats on the team.
ranger wrote:B. This is basically an extension of your first point: Egos clashing. Look man, remember the 2008 Celtics? Were you a person that was skeptic about that team? They had 3 all stars that always, always took the last shot on their own respective teams. And remember, all these guys are friends - they all played together in USA basketball so there's not going to huge hostility - I mean, thefact that Lebron wants to come to miami and Wade wants Lebron to come should mean something. Something stupid about "who gets the last shot" should be trivial.
ranger wrote:C. Another point about Ego - okay. Let me rephrase your question - How does Pau Gasol and Kobe and Llamar Odom and Ron Artest gets shots? How does Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili get shots? How did Michael Jordan and Pippin get shots? How did KG, Pierce, and Allen get shots?
ranger wrote:Look, they want championships. If they wanted more money they could of signed elsewhere like the Knicks or the Nets or even the Bulls. But no, they were willing to take less money for all three of them to be here. You can't really compare this team to the LA 2000-2003 threepeat team because honestly, Kobe and Shaq's egos are 5x as big as these 3. Come on, Shaazam?
ranger wrote:And about the whole "its just three guys on the roster" thing I'm hearing - let me tell you guys of a PG called Rajon Rondo. No one knew about him. He was far from an all-star. But, due to him sharing the spotlight with the big 3 - he has recieved the status as one of the best PGs in the game. 2nd round draft picks like Glen Davis, an overweight, undersized Big man, has been deemed "tough" and one of the best roleplayers in the game. Richard Jefferson, when on the Nets, averaged over 20+ points a game with Jason Kidd, but when he goes to a team that doesn't have such a perennial point guard, his point total slowly decreased over the years.
ranger wrote:And about stats like that - they don't really mean anything anymore. This year a 7th seed beat a 2nd seed for the first time in the NBA. Was it the biggest upset in the world?! hell no, it was the Spurs vs Mavs. Stats like that don't mean anything w/o the proper context.
Jd- wrote:One thing about the example of the last super team is that, well, these guys orchestrated this from the beginning. Bosh, Lebron, and Wade wanted this to happen; as we've seen from Kobe, he'd rather get paid to play alone than to have any teammates of any real worth--the second they seem to be outshining him, he goes for the "me or else" approach (which is unfortunate on a lot of levels). I don't think that's the deal with Bosh, Wade, or LeBron. D-Wade must be incredibly tired of carrying a team on his back, and let's not even get started with LeBron's history of that. Bosh is a perfect #3 man for that set-up, simply because he can really do a lot that LeBron hasn't really had consistently on his teams in the past. It's gonna be interesting.
Jd- wrote:I agree, no doubt. Wade isn't ready to take the backseat, but LeBron isn't either. The only real outcome that will satisfy both is for them both to take the spotlight more or less equally. Miami is about to become a real basketball city and a lot of people who didn't care about basketball are now going to come in--people who probably are more drawn by the spectacle of a dream team including LeBron James than they were were with D-Wade.
Jd- wrote:The "who's going to take that final shot" question is coming up a lot, so I suppose people are thinking it's a big question, but let me point out one thing... now that they are both on one team, they have an option that very few teams have had: two equal weapons. LeBron can make that shot, but so can D-Wade, so as far as coverage is concerned, teams now have twice as much to worry about. I have no doubt that D-Wade and LeBron would both be comfortable with a play (for either of them) that required one to distract the other team while one sets up in the corner for the long ball.
Jd- wrote:LeBron, more than anybody really has to prove something this year--not just with choosing the Heat as his team of choice, but with everything involving if he can co-exist with Wade, etc etc etc. Most importantly, though... he has to prove he can win a championship. He obviously has put in a hell of an effort over the years with some admittedly sub-par players around him, so it's going to be interesting to say the least.
Jd- wrote:I think we can all agree that, even if there is absolutely no inner conflict within the squad, the media will create it. It's what they do. It will take one, "Trouble brewing in the locker room, according to sources" chime on Deadspin for it to get started. Hell, they're probably working on the article already.
Jd- wrote:One thing that's not really up for debate is that this is going to be the most momentum the NBA has had going into a season in a long, long time (likely since LeBron's debut seven years ago, conveniently), so I honestly hope they do get some attention away from the NFL for a bit.
CarpetCrawler wrote:Basically, all I'm saying is that while this is a great thing for the league and all, let's not drink a jug of that Kool-Aid just yet.
CarpetCrawler wrote:I think Gilbert's problem with LeBron, and I see his point here, is that LeBron gave up in the playoffs (And he's definitely right. LeBron is notorious for giving up) and now he's just taking his ball and going home, so to speak. LeBron guaranteed they'd get a title, but when it came to stepping up, he quit, and then he went home. I get tired of the "he doesn't owe them anything" argument, simply because you don't guarantee a title and great success, and then skip town when the going gets tough. It looks cowardly, and looks slimy, but athletes get a free pass because they're being paid millions upon millions of dollars to play a game. It's beyond stupid.
You don't make a promise and then quit when you're needed, whine and have hissyfits, and THEN skip town. That just makes you look like a giant baby.
Ken Berger wrote a beautiful article, IMO, that really sums up this entire farce of a week, with the television broadcast and this interesting war of words Dan Gilbert is trying to start with LeBron.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/13618559/lebrons-choice-proves-hes-a-paper-king?tag=globalNav.nba;cover
(Or an all-star at all?) Mo Williams better be ready to carry that team, but he's a little guy--lotta weight on his shoulders!Jd- wrote:I wouldn't want to work for a guy who turned on him so quickly, either. It was really an immature and nugatory reaction; LeBron wants to be an NBA champion and not just the best player. He was never going to be able to win that championship with such limited tools in Cleveland.
Jd- wrote:LeBron was tired of carrying 11 other guys--I don't blame him. The Cavs had 7 years to give him some tools to work with, and they just didn't help him whatsoever. They were perfectly fine riding out the hype train, but when it came down to it, they weren't willing to get the job done. I gotta be honest and say that he really doesn't owe them anything, simply because he put the Cavaliers on the map and--while he didn't win a championship--he proved that he was not the reason this team couldn't do the job... it was kinda everybody else, from the guys on the floor to the guys in the luxury suites managing the team. So while he may not have delivered them a championship, it isn't like they held up their end of the bargain either (by not giving him any support whatsoever).
Jd- wrote:I don't remember LeBron ever whining or having any sort of hissyfit, though.
Jd- wrote:I did see Dan Gilbert do that, however! I'm sure LeBron really thought he could pull the Cavaliers for all 82 games of the season and right to the championship, but when he had to face teams like the Celtics in the playoffs--where it was more or less a 5-on-1 affair--he realized his mistake of ever having faith in the Cavs to help him out. Lots of players on the Cavs looked legitimate as LeBron would constantly find himself in double coverage and even have entire defenses set on containing him. This was a far cry from the supporting cast that Jordan had, to say the least. LeBron was having to play every position some nights (practically speaking) for the Cavs to even stay in games, simply because everyone else couldn't do their part.
Jd- wrote:Again, though--LeBron is already the best player, we all know that. He isn't a champion, though, and that's what he wants to be. If going to Miami is what he thinks is his best shot at that, then we really can't say much to him. Now, if the Cavs had signed another marque player and told LeBron, "We are ready to win this championship, and we want you to do it," then it'd be different. Instead, they focused solely on getting LeBron back with the same old nonsense. Any respect I had for the Cavaliers management (which was little already) is entirely gone at this point.
Jd- wrote:EDIT: According to ESPN, all three gave up $15 million each. That is going to free up a lot for that 4th big guy.
Jd- wrote:EDIT 2: Also forgot to make a counter-claim of my own to Dan Gilbert. I am ready to guarantee that LeBron and his boys down in Miami will win a championship before Cleveland does, and not just that. I guarantee they will win one before Cleveland ever has another starting all-star.
CarpetCrawler wrote:You had me until this part. It's a mistake a lot of people make, due to nostalgia and such but, Jordan never had a supporting cast. He had Pippen, sure, but he never had a great center (Will Perdue? Luc Longley? Bill Wennington? Bill Cartwright?), hence Jordan had to cover his own ass constantly. He never had a great player at the point. Ron Harper was essentially a disappointment, and John Paxson was a bench guy, at best. Dennis Rodman was a walking PR nightmare who only played when he felt like it. Steve Kerr is a great shooter, but he's not a starter. Toni Kukoc wasn't a big time player yet. Jordan, like Kobe, had to create his own shots his own way, even if he was being double teamed and triple teamed. That's where I see a comparision to Jordan with Kobe. Kobe knows how to create his own shot when he's covered. LeBron's still working on that. Jordan never had guys that could help him when he was covered, and let's not forget that Jordan by himself carried the team to the playoffs in his early years.
Jd- wrote:CarpetCrawler wrote:You had me until this part. It's a mistake a lot of people make, due to nostalgia and such but, Jordan never had a supporting cast. He had Pippen, sure, but he never had a great center (Will Perdue? Luc Longley? Bill Wennington? Bill Cartwright?), hence Jordan had to cover his own ass constantly. He never had a great player at the point. Ron Harper was essentially a disappointment, and John Paxson was a bench guy, at best. Dennis Rodman was a walking PR nightmare who only played when he felt like it. Steve Kerr is a great shooter, but he's not a starter. Toni Kukoc wasn't a big time player yet. Jordan, like Kobe, had to create his own shots his own way, even if he was being double teamed and triple teamed. That's where I see a comparision to Jordan with Kobe. Kobe knows how to create his own shot when he's covered. LeBron's still working on that. Jordan never had guys that could help him when he was covered, and let's not forget that Jordan by himself carried the team to the playoffs in his early years.
I'll have to disagree, because if you think about it--there are a lot of teams that would want guys like Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman backing them up. No doubt Rodman was a mess when he wanted to be, but one thing he undoubtedly was was a beast on defense. His offensive output always was spotty, but with the guys he had to take the shots, he didn't have to do much other than bring the ball down. Rodman is one of the all-time great rebounders, so if I had to choose between him and any number of others in the league to take that role, I would rather have him--absurd lifestyle and all.
As for Pippen, the guy could make plays. He was fantastic at making plays and exploiting holes in offenses. The guy could make opportunties for his team with steals and long-court plays, and we can't say he wasn't consistent--in his 7 big seasons with the Bulls, he was a key scorer and was averaging right around 20 points a game for almost his entire career there; a lot of players these days would kill for those numbers. Add in the fact he was playing on the same team with the greatest player of all time and it's pretty surprising he was able to do that much. He was a very consistent starter and very rarely missed any games during the heyday of the team; hell, he was consistent in general, really. He was able to take down boards and could make shots when he needed to.
Dunno, chief--just think you may be selling him and Rodman both short by a bit. One reason Jordan could afford to create those shots was not just because he was Michael Jordan, but because he had these types of hall of fame players around him (only a matter of time before Rodman gets in, assuming the whole personal image thing doesn't factor in too much). They aren't the same type or calibur of a Kobe or LeBron (and obviously not Jordan), but they were great roleplayers that were diverse and were extremely consistent when the job needed to get done. As a result, they naturally offset some of the pressure put on MJ--unlike some of the guys on the Cavs, who would likely get bested even in the WNBA.
CoolKid3 wrote:If the Heat can get decent role players, then 2011 Season is all over even before it starts. However, if LA can improve on the PG spot and Bynum can be healthy then Miami still has some serious competition to face. Hope Boston starts rebuilding with Rondo as the core of the team. The Thunders will also be a threat next season.
CarpetCrawler wrote:CoolKid3 wrote:If the Heat can get decent role players, then 2011 Season is all over even before it starts. However, if LA can improve on the PG spot and Bynum can be healthy then Miami still has some serious competition to face. Hope Boston starts rebuilding with Rondo as the core of the team. The Thunders will also be a threat next season.
With the rumors that Derek Fisher is going to Miami, one has to wonder how Steve Blake will fit in this equation. Does this make him the starter at the point in LA? We'll see, I guess. If the Heat can pick up Fisher, that's a great veteran player to have in the locker room.
I think Kevin Durant is going to be one of the top three players in the entire LEAGUE in a short amount of time.
CarpetCrawler wrote:
Pop was actually coaching the team the year before Duncan was drafted, though to be fair, it really shouldn't count, because that was the year that David Robinson sat out pretty much the entire season, and Dominique flippin' Wilkins was the team's go-to-guy. And on the note about coaches only being great if they have the right players; that's true, but let's not decrease the importance of a great coach. Before Phil was coaching the Bulls in 1989, Doug Collins coached the team. He was a damn good coach, but could never get over the hump (Which back then was the Pistons). When Phil came in, the team immediately became so much better (Thanks to Phil's coaching philosophy, which is basically Red Holzman mixed with Tex Winter's famous Triangle Offense), and it wasn't because Jordan blossomed into something amazing. Scottie Pippen improved, yes, but he had to, since they lost Oakley. Let's not credit the Bulls six titles all on Jordan, especially considering it was really Phil that kept THOSE egos from blowing up. Remember the year that Jordan took off in 1994, and the infamous Scottie Pippen playoff hissy fit?
CarpetCrawler wrote:Just like it did in LA, right? And let's be honest, the reason the Heat won the title was because of absolutely terrible officiating in the final few games of that Heat-Mavs series. Wade's ridiculous amount of free throws won that. Also, people are willing to win titles, but that doesn't mean they're willing to be second fiddles. Just ask Allen Iverson, Shaq, Isiah Thomas, Joe Johnson, and others what they felt was more important.
CarpetCrawler wrote:
I was one of the guys that said the Celtics were going to steamroll over everyone, for the record. Also, while it's true that all three were known for taking the last shot on their teams, during their first interview as teammates, who did they say RIGHT away was
always going to take the final shot?
KG: Ray Allen
Pierce: Ray Allen
Allen: "The open man".
"Who gets the last shot" may be "stupid" and "trivial" to you, but I've seen all too much in all my years of watching professional basketball, how it could very well hurt a team when a player just REFUSES to pass the ball to an open man because they feel like they can nail the big shot, whether it's during the regular season or the playoffs. And then there's, "yeah, but they all played well together on the USA basketball team." Well, yeah, but so did Michael Jordan and Isiah Thomas, and lord knows how they feel about each other.
Just because they want to play with each other doesn't mean it's going to be a happy bed of roses. I've been watching this sport, and other sports, long enough to know that you can't put all of your eggs in one basket anymore.
CarpetCrawler wrote:
You missed the point. First of all, Artest, how does one even begin to explain Ron Artest? The guy is completely bi-polar in how he plays. Some days he's perfectly content with chucking up eight three point bricks (And don't think Kobe hasn't talked to him about that in the past), while other days he does what he does best: absolutely destroy you on the defensive end. Some folks, like Gasol, KG, Allen, are willing to lower their statistics to win. Does LeBron seem like that to you? Wade? Really? Jordan and Pippen were the ONLY guys on their team to get shots, for the record. And with Duncan, Parker (Who may be on the way out, according to rumors), and Ginobili, once again, you picked the absolute most un-selfish players to defend your point. Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili, other than the flopping, are model teammates and model citizens.
CarpetCrawler wrote:
No kidding? I was never saying that they were Kobe and Shaq. But I don't get what the Shaazam joke has to do with the argument... besides, who doesn't want to win championships?
What you don't get is that yes, people do want to win championships, but they want to be the man when they do it. The current generation has become so "me first" that this is all too commonplace.
CarpetCrawler wrote:
There's a giant difference between the style of play from Rajon Rondo and the style of play of Jason Kidd. First of all, Rondo MADE himself a better basketball player out of sheer willpower. That kid absolutely improved, and what helped was definitely the right crew around him. Rajon Rondo is an all-around basketball machine. Jason Kidd is an overglorified Jason "White Chocolate" Williams esque stunt man that loves to play flashy before he plays smart. Kidd is the kind of guy that makes his teammates around him better, but not for the long run, and they are lost when they are away from him. Think Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, and Hedo Turkoglu to name a few. These are players that looked great... on one team, and it's easy to tell it was because of who they had around them, not because they were any good. And I think it was pretty common knowledge that though he had his weaknesses, Glen Davis was essentially a steal in that draft. No one questioned Davis' toughness; they were afraid of his weight, which a few draft experts thought was a silly thing to worry about.
CarpetCrawler wrote:Let's not use the Western Conference as your argument on this, because nothing all that made made the Spurs and Mavs all that different from each other, ranger. The Western Conference in 2010 is a wee bit different from the Eastern Conference in 1982. Besides, I was making a point for the "LeBron CAN win in Miami" side... :-/
CarpetCrawler wrote:
Bosh, we'll see how he does. I don't think he's as great as everyone says he is (He's a lot like Gasol sometimes, who has been given the nickname "Mister Softee" for a reason), but maybe a change in environment will change that.
CarpetCrawler wrote:Jd- wrote:The "who's going to take that final shot" question is coming up a lot, so I suppose people are thinking it's a big question, but let me point out one thing... now that they are both on one team, they have an option that very few teams have had: two equal weapons. LeBron can make that shot, but so can D-Wade, so as far as coverage is concerned, teams now have twice as much to worry about. I have no doubt that D-Wade and LeBron would both be comfortable with a play (for either of them) that required one to distract the other team while one sets up in the corner for the long ball.
That's a fair point, though they'll need a few more guys that can hit the big shot for it to be successful (I did hear they're going after Mike Miller, which will be a huge, HUGE pick-up for them).
CarpetCrawler wrote:
Basically, all I'm saying is that while this is a great thing for the league and all, let's not drink a jug of that Kool-Aid just yet. Already we have people screaming "DYNASTY!", when I've been watching this sport long enough to know that this has been tried many times before.
Am I saying this will fail? No, not at all. But, am I saying this will work? No, I'm not saying that either. All I'm saying is that I have my doubts, 'tis all.
I'm also screaming "I hate bandwagoners"
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