Chekhov's theories about the plot

[Abs.]

Volume 48, File 10, Page 13 (and 14) aka File 500 in case anyone wants to double-check.

[sstimson]

Thanks Abs. So that about is the uncertain kind.

By the way, what I am suggesting is that Hairbara has partial memory lose. She has lost either intentional or accidentally memories about her time with the BO. As this can be caused by events like the BO killing her sister, it is easy to understand why parts of her being with the BO are a blank while others are clear. Another name would be Amnesia.

[leokiko]

Thanks Abs. So that about is the uncertain kind.

By the way, what I am suggesting is that Hairbara has partial memory lose. She has lost either intentional or accidentally memories about her time with the BO. As this can be caused by events like the BO killing her sister, it is easy to understand why parts of her being with the BO are a blank while others are clear. Another name would be Amnesia.

Trauma.

[sstimson]

yes Amnesia caused by trauma experience, like her sister being killed by the company she works for.

[believer08]

I don't think that Ai would lie about knowing or not Kir... It doesn't make sense since she is in the same side of Conan. And the Amnesia Theory doesn't make sense to me either, Kir haven't any relation with Ai's sister or something. But I'm not sure if Ai and Kir had any contact, they didn't If I remember correctly, so we don't know Ai's reaction to Kir... I'm sure that Ai can't lie about that if she has the same reaction that have when Vermouth or Gin is near.

(Sorry about the bad english, I tried to explain it as clare as possible)

[sstimson]

Kir is BO. Her Sister was killed by Bo. Her sister killed is a trauma event. It makes a lot of sense for Hai[s]r[/s]bara to lose her memory about events that could remind her about how her sister died. This kind of Amnesia is not fiction. It is called Dissociative Amnesia
Read about it here. I am suggesting that yes indeed Hai[s]r[/s]bara is not lying when she does not tell Conan more about the BO and its people. Her mind in self defense has blocked out certain memories that could cause her Pain. Also remember the series of events that brought her to be with Conan. We got her sister killed, She feeling betrayed, her taking a drug, she blacking out in front Kudo's house. Those kind of events could lead to this kind of amnesia easy. Also, again thank to Abs, is the evidence of this with the phase " I don't have any memories of anyone named 'Kir'

@ Chek

In your chart I would made two suggestions.

First Vermount is closer to the boss then you have her. She has more then once delievered a message from to boss to Gin about a go ahead. It seems to me that since Vermount is more in contact with the boss then Gin. that maybe they are closer in rank.

Second Namabuchi should have a line before him, as I believe he does not have a code name and may just take orders from the other three.

Next your statement

You got several facts wrong here. First Kir only claimed to have clonked Camel over the head. Second the Black Org never saw Camel's face (I discussed this somewhere else once before and included pictures), hence they don't know that he came back because they didn't know it was him in the exploding van to begin with.

If she had clonked him over the head, he could not have gotten out of the van in time to avoid being killed by the bomb that went off 10 to 20 seconds later.

Also Gin in 425 to Vermouth statement 'I have sources everywhere", should include the FBI. The point becomes not if the BO saw camel's face, but if they could learn who was driving Kir. I believe Gin could have easily learned that detail. The way Gin is about things and I sure he investigated Kir's return very thoroughly,he must know the truth which is that the driver was not killed and Kir is lying about killing him (by blowing him up)

Now with the fact Kir lied about killing Akai (after all his "ghost" showed up twice). Even if if is not him but his double it still cast doubt on her statements. And Gin learning the truth about Kir's return. He must know why she is there (she is a spy). So again concerning the way the BO works, why do they allow this distrustworthy member to exist unless it is to carry misinformation back to the people she spies for. And again the BO as I see it knows Kir is a plant. I can not see them being so careless as to let this spy learn about current events the BO is working on.
Yes the ghost showed up after the "Bourbon" intel. It is there to ask why is she still alive. Her lie about camel might be enough for them to think she is a spy. her lie about the "ghost" is iceing on the cake.

Also in 425 I noticed that the feed for Kir's camera is not live, and that might help your Akai theory if they had time to change it. Again, the way BO works, someone unseen should have been watching the event LIVE.

Also if you say it unlikely the BO would know it had spies working for it, remember the other two Kir's Father, and Rye(Akai).

Is that better ? Hairbara?

[Abs.]

She could have said "I don't have any memories of anyone named 'Jd-'" - then you would assume she blocked that out too due to her PTSD. And again, what is the point you are making anyway regarding "Yes Sherry knew Kir existed/knew Kir personally"? The point for Sherry saying that she doesn't know Kir would be to establish that the whole Kir thing happened after Sherry escaped. If a lab scientist has heard about some random snipers, she would definitely have heard about the member who was undercover as a popular television announcer.

Re: BO
Kir's not an executive member.
Executive members seemingly are just Gin and Vermouth, who never really know what each other is doing. The BO does not have "meetings," otherwise Gin for one would kill everyone for wasting his time in them. Kir got a codename because she "killed a traitor under extraordinary circumstances," and that was only recently (see above).
Bourbon might be a trusted family member of an existing member (e.g. the Boss' son/daughter) thus explaining both "new member" and "wtf he/she has a codename already!?" Or might be nonexistent (also explaining both points but making it obvious it's a lie)

[sstimson]

She could have said "I don't have any memories of anyone named 'Jd-'" - then you would assume she blocked that out too due to her PTSD. And again, what is the point you are making anyway regarding "Yes Sherry knew Kir existed/knew Kir personally"? The point for Sherry saying that she doesn't know Kir would be to establish that the whole Kir thing happened after Sherry escaped. If a lab scientist has heard about some random snipers, she would definitely have heard about the member who was undercover as a popular television announcer.

Re: BO
Kir's not an executive member.
Executive members seemingly are just Gin and Vermouth, who never really know what each other is doing. The BO does not have "meetings," otherwise Gin for one would kill everyone for wasting his time in them. Kir got a codename because she "killed a traitor under extraordinary circumstances," and that was only recently (see above).
Bourbon might be a trusted family member of an existing member (e.g. the Boss' son/daughter) thus explaining both "new member" and "wtf he/she has a codename already!?" Or might be nonexistent (also explaining both points but making it obvious it's a lie)

I know some hate me doing this. It is a yes, but.

First Point is while Haibara was with the BO and before her sister was killed by them, she being a higher up would have heard the office gossip and going ons in the BO.

Next KIR had her code name before the Killing. I just saying that because of event proving her a liar, she likely has not yet gotten back her rank. her "killing" Akai mght have got her foot in the door, but later events would prove her a liar and maybe a spy.

Sherry should have heard of a Bo moving up in rank maybe with her real name. That is for KIR.
Kir on the other hand might not have had time to learn about the mover up though if this Bourbon was like you suggest, then she would have know them as they would be close to the same level as she was.

Agreed GIN might never go to a meeting, though again in 425 a kind of meeting that Gin calls does happen. it is important for companies to have their higher up report to the other section leaders and the chairman about how events in their sections are going. Granted Gin might either give a written report to another member to be read at such meeting or find anyone to deliver it and then kill then afterwards as a security risk.

[Abs.]

Next KIR had her code name before the Killing. I just saying that because of event proving her a liar, she likely has not yet gotten back her rank. her "killing" Akai mght have got her foot in the door, but later events would prove her a liar and maybe a spy.

I am talking about Kir "killing" her father.

[Kor]

I really don't understand.
Something like Dissociative Amnesia for Haibara just so she would "not remember" someone's name is way too convenient for the plot, but the only reason why you support something like this and not support the "Akai surviving the blank" theory is because the Amnesia thing is realistic and doesn't just exist in fiction?
I also don't really understand anymore where you're going with this. At first you were referring to your "crazy theory" that Haibara is still in the B.O., but wait, how does it work with Haibara having an amnesia? Or is the amnesia just conveniently selective about what Haibara remembers and what she doesn't remember?
Anyway, Haibara seems to fully remember everything, so.......no, she doesn't have an amnesia.
If you're looking for a reason why Haibara didn't have any memory regarding who Kir was, here's the easiest way to explain it - she didn't know.

[believer08]

That's why the amnesia theory doesn't make sense to me. Why she would had any contact with Kir, since they where in differents areas? And, so, it could be that Kir joined in the BO before Ai scaped...
It's way too complicated having a "selective" amnesia. Could it be? Of course. But I don't think this is the case. Because of the same reasons, to me, Ai wasn't lieing either.

(Sorry about the bad english)

[sstimson]

First Abs thanks for the clarification.

next Kor Believe it or not I am starting to see real life way to fake the point blank shot. Theory:
Because of the flash we can not see where the gun was when it fire that shot. If that shot was fired at the same point where it was drawn, then Real World Akai is dead blank or no. But if she moved the gun just enough to like graze an ear then YES AKAI IS ALIVE. Of course that gun shot would be off screen. And by the way this opens up the possibility that a blank is no longer needed to have an alive akai. As it would leave a burn mark by being fired that close, Scar could be the real one. One problem with that is the time involved. A burn of that type would with time heal.

Part about about the theory about Haibara having PTSD, all I am saying there is that could close plot holes and at the same time give a reason for her statement about not knowing KIR. As the Drug was her life work that is more likely to an thing that stays in her current memory. After all every day she is remind of that drug by her current size! Granted if Haibara is still BO then she is a very good liar and no need for the PTSD, as in that is the case her sister death(?) was like Akai staged so she have a reason to be near her real world test case and be able to conduct her experiments on Poor Conan, the Guinna pig.

If my Haibara theory still BO is wrong then the PTSD help to explain why the BO still exist and she has not in revenge brought them down to nothing.As for "conveniently selective" Amnesia, I would say that is very untrue especially as far as Conan is concerned, after all if Haibara knew the formula she used to make it, she might by now have a cure for Conan.
And no, Haibara does not remember everything. There are major gaps about her family, the drug, and a person she for sure should have know and we know she met - Pisco.

[sonoci]

And no, Haibara does not remember everything. There are major gaps about her family, the drug, and a person she for sure should have know and we know she met - Pisco.

While I'm not an expert, I'd assume she doesn't know about her family because:
A) her parents were also scientists high up and I understand they died when she was very small
B) Akemi was allowed to live a normal life while Shiho worked. She did get updates every now and again, but she'd be focusing mostly on research. Also, even if she got together with Akemi sometimes and decided to ask about their parents, I doubt even Akemi would know much about them, being allowed to be 'normal' like she was 


And, while I can't quote it word for word, Pisco said that he met Shiho when she was a baby: of course she wouldn't remember that.

[Kor]

First Abs thanks for the clarification.

next Kor Believe it or not I am starting to see real life way to fake the point blank shot. Theory:
Because of the flash we can not see where the gun was when it fire that shot. If that shot was fired at the same point where it was drawn, then Real World Akai is dead blank or no. But if she moved the gun just enough to like graze an ear then YES AKAI IS ALIVE. Of course that gun shot would be off screen. And by the way this opens up the possibility that a blank is no longer needed to have an alive akai. As it would leave a burn mark by being fired that close, Scar could be the real one. One problem with that is the time involved. A burn of that type would with time heal.

Part about about the theory about Haibara having PTSD, all I am saying there is that could close plot holes and at the same time give a reason for her statement about not knowing KIR. As the Drug was her life work that is more likely to an thing that stays in her current memory. After all every day she is remind of that drug by her current size! Granted if Haibara is still BO then she is a very good liar and no need for the PTSD, as in that is the case her sister death(?) was like Akai staged so she have a reason to be near her real world test case and be able to conduct her experiments on Poor Conan, the Guinna pig.

If my Haibara theory still BO is wrong then the PTSD help to explain why the BO still exist and she has not in revenge brought them down to nothing.As for "conveniently selective" Amnesia, I would say that is very untrue especially as far as Conan is concerned, after all if Haibara knew the formula she used to make it, she might by now have a cure for Conan.
And no, Haibara does not remember everything. There are major gaps about her family, the drug, and a person she for sure should have know and we know she met - Pisco.

Sstimson, do you remember everything that happened in your life? like every single second of it? Every little thing you've ever learned, every person you've ever met, even as a baby? No? Then there's a chance you have an amnesia, a very selective amnesia.

Giving Haibara amnesia doesn't close plot-holes (the stuff you mentioned aren't plot-holes), it opens more holes, bigger holes. How do we find out that Haibara as amnesia? The only way is that Conan would figure it out, but how would Conan figure that out? Unless he gets information about what Haibara should know but doesn't remember, then Conan can't really find out about the amnesia. No B.O. member as well can tell us if Ai has amnesia since they wouldn't know that either.

[sstimson]

Found it Chapter 242 page 9

Again Ab might be needed to know what that line really says

But M A N G A R E A D E R . N E T has it as

"You don't seem to remember me, I was a friend of your Parents when you were Young"

No B.O. member as well can tell us if Ai has amnesia since they wouldn't know that either.

And yet, that is just what I found. That above line is exactly that.

And now there are two places

Not sure about Kir and not remembering Pisco.

Stay tuned sure to find more examples.