Chekhov's theories about the plot

[Kor]

I know I am going to get shot down, But I still believe that DC is just not that predictable. It is still possible that Gosho Aoyama could turn all your theories on their head. Beware trying to read too much into as yet unknown events.

And I still think Bourbon does not exist. Think this way. Why would the BO let a possible spy ( even they know, they got her back way too easy ) know about an important member of the BO unless it is misinformation. Granted it would be nice to know how Hairbara acts if / when she hears about the code word "Bourbon". She should know a lot about the BO and its personal.

Bourbon is supposed to be a new member, so it's possible that she has no idea who the heck he is.

Sorry, but that is very unlikely. I do not believe you can just sign up for the BO like you do the armed services. I sure you must work your way up the organization and must be need the top to get an alcohol code name. It likely takes years to get to that level. Hairbara would know if someone like that was on their way up. This is even more true if my crazy Theory is right (Hairbara still part of BO). Kir should also know if someone is moving up. I agree it is possible they just got to the code name stage. But still that person should be know to those two.

1) Haibara didn't know who Kir was.
2) I've never said that Bourbon just "signed up" and got in. It's enough for Bourbon to get his code name after Haibara ran away, and she wouldn't know who that is. You're treating this whole organization as if everyone knows everything.

Haibara would know if someone like that was on their way up.

And why is that?

[mangaluva]

I wouldn't expect Haibara to know a thing about any agents other than the ones that she directly interacted with (which makes her apparently close knowledge of Gin unusual), because this doesn't seem to be the kind of organization to tell their agents everything. I suspect it works on an ignorance hierarchy; ever member is expected to know everything about their subordinates, nothing about their superiors, and a little about those equals that they are required to directly interact with. It's safer that way; what you don't know, you can't sell to the cops for a plea bargain.

Basically, unless Bourbon was a scientist working with Sherry or her immediate supervisor (which I suspect was Vermouth's role), I wouldn't expect her to know much about him. She probably only knows rumours about a few other agents.

[sstimson]

Time to explain my way of thinking. I see the Bo as a Class system. The lowers know very little. The Code name's know most of what is going on. Hairbara had a code name so she was in the upper part, and I disagree that she would only know those around her job. I think the BO would call meetings where only the Boss and Codenamers were there. I am sure they would discuss Important things that they were working on. And I am also sure how others in lower classes were moving up in class was also part of their meetings. They should have had rules about what kind of knowledge the lower classes were allowed to know about them. Let me make this next part very clear. ONLY the higher up codenamers would know close to everything. Depending on what class would determine what they knew about the BO. the very low member would know very little, the Codenamer would know almost everything.

1) Haibara didn't know who Kir was.

Kor, can you prove that? Episode # or Manga chapter please and page if possible.

Haibara would know if someone like that was on their way up.

And why is that?

Read above. Think about how corporation work in the real world. It is possible some of the higher ups might let the other higher up know about class movers in normal gossip.

And if I need to start a new thread tell me. As I see it the BO KNOWS that KIR is a spy. I can give reasons and evidence if I need to. The way I see it is while KIR was a codenamer, she is a much lower class now and is likely watched every moment.
So the question. Knowing that, how could Kir learn about Bourbon unless the BO wanted her to know. And that being so, means that Bourbon is misinformation, a test. Also the same question to you all. You do know that a blank shot point blank DOES kill right? How could Akai fake a death shot and live. In the real world he could not. So do real world physical laws hold weight in the DC world or not. If they do then Akai is DEAD.

that said, Hairbara know a lot more about the BO then she is saying. It would be too easy for her to fake not knowing somebody.

[leokiko]

Haibara did say on chapter 425(anime) that she doesn't know Kir. Well, she could easily lie there, but that would be strange, since she had no reason to lie in that situation, which they already were in danger.

[sstimson]

Haibara did say on chapter 425(anime) that she doesn't know Kir. Well, she could easily lie there, but that would be strange, since she had no reason to lie in that situation, which they already were in danger.

Correction for the above. Hairbara said this at 45:28

"I don't remember Kir," not I don't  know Kir. Big Difference

Also her next statement

"But I've heard of Chianti and Korn."
That happens at 45:30 on Episode 425 Anime

they are not in danger when she says this. And this should show that Code namer members know about if not know
other Code Namers.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

And I still think Bourbon does not exist. Think this way. Why would the BO let a possible spy ( even they know, they got her back way too easy ) know about an important member of the BO unless it is misinformation. Granted it would be nice to know how Hairbara acts if / when she hears about the code word "Bourbon". She should know a lot about the BO and its personal.

Bourbon didn't want Kir to know about his plan, but she still found out, because they are all three (Vermouth, Bourbon, Kir) in the recon division. Bourbon is going to have a harder time hiding from Kir because of this. It also explains why Vermouth specifically helped Bourbon, and why Gin didn't know: it was an internal division affair and Vermouth skipped over him to talk to the boss about it.

I made this for the German Forum a while back. It's from the Conan Drill. I'll add it to the main section for reference. I think this should answer many of the questions just posted about the hierarchy and who should know who, and why it would be surprising for certain individuals to know each other (hint Haibara and Vermouth).

And again I ask my question. You have just got back an old member of the code name club. This member claimed to have killed a FBI agent that shortly later is found alive (Camel).

You got several facts wrong here. First Kir only claimed to have clonked Camel over the head. Second the Black Org never saw Camel's face (I discussed this somewhere else once before and included pictures), hence they don't know that he came back because they didn't know it was him in the exploding van to begin with.

Also Hairbara.

[sonoci]

I think the BO would call meetings where only the Boss and Codenamers were there.

This was just one thing that would've bugged me

With this line of thinking, Haibara (or rather Sherry) would've been at one of those meetings and it's implied she'd know the Boss then

However, in an interview Gosho said the Boss is someone Haibara wouldn't expect. If she met this person, how would she not expect it? 

[Kor]

Correction for the above. Hairbara said this at 45:28

"I don't remember Kir," not I don't  know Kir. Big Difference

There is a conflict between translations then:
http://www.mangareader.net/139-8546-12/ ... r-500.html

And if I need to start a new thread tell me. As I see it the BO KNOWS that KIR is a spy. I can give reasons and evidence if I need to. The way I see it is while KIR was a codenamer, she is a much lower class now and is likely watched every moment.
So the question. Knowing that, how could Kir learn about Bourbon unless the BO wanted her to know. And that being so, means that Bourbon is misinformation, a test. Also the same question to you all. You do know that a blank shot point blank DOES kill right? How could Akai fake a death shot and live. In the real world he could not. So do real world physical laws hold weight in the DC world or not. If they do then Akai is DEAD.

that said, Hairbara know a lot more about the BO then she is saying. It would be too easy for her to fake not knowing somebody.

This is all stuff that has already been discussed and as far as I recall, Chekhov gave you all of her arguments and you simply don't agree, so I see no point in discussing the same thing all over again for the third time.
About Haibara, why fake "not knowing" or "not remembering" (choose a translation) on one member when she could also do the same with the other two as well?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

About Haibara, why fake "not knowing" or "not remembering" (choose a translation) on one member when she could also do the same with the other two as well?

Pretty good contradiction. (Wishes DCTP had reps)

[sstimson]

That is still okey

Manga - I don't know ABOUT Kir. Note it is not I don't know Kir. The next line is I know ...

Anime - I don't REMEMBER Kir. These two are close to saying the same thing

And that helps my point : She is not saying I do not know.
It more like my memory on that is fuzzy. It is possible that she might not remember her, but she might still did ( and can not remember ) either meeting or hearing about her while with the BO.

Yea, Chek and me basically agreed to agree to disagree. She has valid points and so do I.

I like thing to be more real world and somewhat completely provable.

Like Why use a new and as yet untested drug to kill when other proven drugs will work and kill?

and that other question that I really would like an answer to: Do real world physical laws hold weight in the DC world or not?

Hairbara statements about Conan being part of a project YEARS OLD. If that is so then why not have someone near him to collect data on how the project is going and maybe do more experiments on?

There are reasons for my doubts.

About Haibara, why fake "not knowing" or "not remembering" (choose a translation) on one member when she could also do the same with the other two as well?

The other two are maybe a greater threat. Note she need Conan to get that bug back. In this section she even to a point explains why.

[leokiko]

Haibara did say on chapter 425(anime) that she doesn't know Kir. Well, she could easily lie there, but that would be strange, since she had no reason to lie in that situation, which they already were in danger.

Correction for the above. Hairbara said this at 45:28

"I don't remember Kir," not I don't  know Kir. Big Difference

Also her next statement

"But I've heard of Chianti and Korn."
That happens at 45:30 on Episode 425 Anime

they are not in danger when she says this. And this should show that Code namer members know about if not know
other Code Namers.

OF COURSE THEY WERE IN DANGER! lol. It was when that bug got stuck on Kir shoes, remember? They could be found out at any time... Haibara even implies it here:

http://www.mangareader.net/139-8547-4/d ... r-501.html

[Kor]

That is still okey

Manga - I don't know ABOUT Kir. Note it is not I don't know Kir. The next line is I know ...

Anime - I don't REMEMBER Kir. These two are close to saying the same thing

And that helps my point : She is not saying I do not know.
It more like my memory on that is fuzzy. It is possible that she might not remember her, but she might still did ( and can not remember ) either meeting or hearing about her while with the BO.

You're twisting the meaning for your theory's sake. "I know Kir" implies that Haibara has met her in the past, they've met once for lunch and had a girls night together, etc. "I know about Kir" implies that she hasn't met Kir before, but she has heard about her, what she does, etc.
Therefore, "know about" makes much more sense than "know". This is at least what I think, I don't claim it to be a fact.
But the english is pretty meaningless considering it was originally written in a different language and we don't know what the true translation is.

and that other question that I really would like an answer to: Do real world physical laws hold weight in the DC world or not?

How extreme are you with this question? Cause.... (check last panel)
http://www.mangareader.net/139-8225-16/ ... r-179.html
A child can't really jump that high, right? (in the anime it was even more ridiculous)
I know it's a bad example, but still 

If Akai was supposed to be killed because of the blank shot, but did survive, consider it a convenience for the sake of the plot. The same convenience for Agasa's inventions and Kaito Kid's disguises and tricks.

[sstimson]

That is still okey

Manga - I don't know ABOUT Kir. Note it is not I don't know Kir. The next line is I know ...

Anime - I don't REMEMBER Kir. These two are close to saying the same thing

And that helps my point : She is not saying I do not know.
It more like my memory on that is fuzzy. It is possible that she might not remember her, but she might still did ( and can not remember ) either meeting or hearing about her while with the BO.

You're twisting the meaning for your theory's sake. "I know Kir" implies that Haibara has met her in the past, they've met once for lunch and had a girls night together, etc. "I know about Kir" implies that she hasn't met Kir before, but she has heard about her, what she does, etc.
Therefore, "know about" makes much more sense than "know". This is at least what I think, I don't claim it to be a fact.
But the english is pretty meaningless considering it was originally written in a different language and we don't know what the true translation is.

Not really. Granted need someone like Abs to check in and translate that line.

About about

that about could be looked at in two different ways one like you are suggesting.

About meaning in that case concerning or related to, in which case you could remove the about and it becomes I do not know

then there is the other meaning of about meaning unclear or not certain normally dealing with facts like it is about 5 feet. I would think that meaning would make the statement more clear if written like this: I am not sure if I know Kir ,and that the way I am looking at it. Waiting for translation.

and that other question that I really would like an answer to: Do real world physical laws hold weight in the DC world or not?

How extreme are you with this question? Cause.... (check last panel)
http://www.mangareader.net/139-8225-16/ ... r-179.html
A child can't really jump that high, right? (in the anime it was even more ridiculous)
I know it's a bad example, but still 

Actually , that is physical possible. I saw a You-Tube of a kid jumping to the top of a picnic table. (go  here. This is the point: That kid in the video jumped half of his height. Conan should also be able to do that plus with his hand over his head would be the other hand his height, in effect jumping twice his height. Will wait on Chek for Conan height but average high jump of 8 year ago seem to be three feet.

If Akai was supposed to be killed because of the blank shot, but did survive, consider it a convenience for the sake of the plot. The same convenience for Agasa's inventions and Kaito Kid's disguises and tricks.

Most of Agasa invention are possible with maybe the exception of the shoes.

[Abs.]

That is still okey

Manga - I don't know ABOUT Kir. Note it is not I don't know Kir. The next line is I know ...

Anime - I don't REMEMBER Kir. These two are close to saying the same thing

And that helps my point : She is not saying I do not know.
It more like my memory on that is fuzzy. It is possible that she might not remember her, but she might still did ( and can not remember ) either meeting or hearing about her while with the BO.

You're twisting the meaning for your theory's sake. "I know Kir" implies that Haibara has met her in the past, they've met once for lunch and had a girls night together, etc. "I know about Kir" implies that she hasn't met Kir before, but she has heard about her, what she does, etc.
Therefore, "know about" makes much more sense than "know". This is at least what I think, I don't claim it to be a fact.
But the english is pretty meaningless considering it was originally written in a different language and we don't know what the true translation is.

「・・・・・・・・・キールã

[makoto]

in french ai said she don't know any member named kir but she do about chianty and korn