Akai (SPOILERS)

[Found]

I don't think Gin is the type of guy who double-checks to make sure the target is dead. One example would be when he "took out" Shin'ichi. Gin didn't even shoot Shin'ichifor good measure.                           

He wanted to relish Shuu's being dead. You know, being his 'old enemy' and all that. And his being a silver bullet.

[kirhidemi]

the fight is not over so akai is still alive... conan need him to put end on that evil organization....

[Eve]

There is one major problem with everyone's "Akai is still alive theory." THE FINGERPRINTS. Remember Jodie had the fingerprints from Conan's cellphone matched with the ones extrapolated from the dead barbecued body. They matched, the only people who used that phone were Akai, and Conan.

And don't forget Kusuda Rikumichi. Conan used that phone to perform his clue finding act in chapter 597. All of the suspects in that case touched the phone once. Rikumichi even touched the inside of the phone. Also, even though Rikumichi is dead, Conan or Akai could have forged his fingerprints by touching his fingers (which may still have fingerprint oil on them) to the phone or by by applying a light coat of oil to his fingers and then touching the phone to them.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Conan had one of his two cell phones touched/taken by Akai in chapter 602. In any case Jodie borrows one of Conan's cell phones in chapter 609 around page 10 or so, but it may not be the one that Akai touched. It could be the one Rikumichi touched instead.

I just realised something...I think the body found in Akai's car was actually Kusuda Rikumichi (the BO agent from the hospital). When conan was trying to determine which of the 3 patients was the BO member, he dropped his cellphone and Rikumichi touched it...So his fingerprints are on it...And he did commit sucide(shot in the head, like Akai), and the disposal of his body was never revealed...So i think it makes a lot of sense that it was him...Also, being a BO member, it makes sense that the police have no record of his fingerprints in any of their databases... I always thought it was too comfortable that a hand was left unburned and so the body could be identified...it was so that everyone (apart from the ones who know about the plan) are certain that it was Akai...it also fits the previous eps in which Akai and Conan didn't tell the 'Rena plan' to all FBI members so that they would think that the FBI really did lose and the enemy would be fooled as well.

about Akai escaping, remember that Rena mentioned that he came from the other way, and he parked next to the safety rail...just like with Camel, it makes sense that he did that in order to be able to escape...the 'accident nearby' that caused the police to be there quickly, forcing the BO members to make a quick escape and not verify everything, was also part of the plan...and Akai and Rena's final conversation also suggests that they had some sort of a plan...

Exactly my thaughts, plus when Rena turned her head to the police sirene ( and the camera on her necklace ) Akai could escape, and Rena could show them ( Gin and Vodka ) the body of Rikumichi ( switching from front seat to the back seat, you clearly can see that in the episode and the manga chapter ), as for the prints your corect, Akai touched another replica of that phone. The bomb was to burn the corpse, as for the hand on the pocket was clearly to make shure they could match the prints. As for the two shots, those were simply blanks. The blood was fake, probably a device they also use in movies, one behind his coat and one behind his hat. How he escaped from that cliff, probably in Rena's car, or like Sherlock Holmes..... Reichenbach falls = Reiha pass..... hehehe... that does make you think, doesn't it..

As for the cellphone bit: is it worth mentioning that Conan had two identical cellphones at that time? One for Conan and one for Shinichi.

As such, it is possible to have a unique set of fingerprints on either one. One could have Jodie, Conan's and the BO member in the hospital, and the other would have another set of people.

Hmmm.... these are quite good explanations there... HMM... still, I want to see Gosho's own explanation... for some reason, I guess next issue would be the answer ^_. It's probably just me, but there's something I can't pin on either... I have doubts on both arguments, so far, because either can be explain in someway, but probably only one will be chosen as the "truth" ... huh... now I guess I can only hope the author chose the real, plausible "truth"

A random comment regarding something mentioned

I don't think Gin is the type of guy who double-checks to make sure the target is dead. One example would be when he "took out" Shin'ichi. Gin didn't even shoot Shin'ichifor good measure.                            

I agree that he isn't the type double check a kill but that's probably because he's certain they are dead. In Shinichi's case, he gave him a poison that was known to be fatal, so he had no reason to double check. Guy probably kills someone everyday, you know how irratating it would be to check EVERY time, , be like checking if 2+2=4 every time you add them up.

Also, shooting Shinichi after he had been heavily poisoned would of just been overkill and extremely evil(not double checking)...you are right, kinda out of character for Gin not to do it...but he was riding a roller coaster, maybe he had motion sickness and wanted to get home quickly .

That's one of the curious things about the BO. I heard that the bubble in the blood stream is almost also fatal and near impossible to trace, Yet the Bo which is trying to stay hidden does not seem to use that method. The question is why!?

I think like Gin said it himself, he doesn't even remember the faces of people he killed, he probably don't "check" every time, if I'm an experience killer who believes I "kill" every times, I wouldn't double check because I'm confident that I "killed" that person, that's what he's probably thinking. I mean he's confidence that once something "he" killed, it HAS to already been dead! Unless he doubt himself, he won't check again, and Gin is not likely to doubt himself.

On the other hand, he just not check to see if Akai is "really" dead is probably because he wants to see if Kir is loyal or not, and seeing Akai got shot in the head-I don't see people survive that everyday, even with medical treatment, Gin probably concluded Akai is dead - he never believes Akai is the silver bullet in the first place anyway. Still he doubts Kir when a "different" Akai appears, so I guess there was some doubts.

[shinichi1977]

Alright... I need to take my mind off studying... So I shall basically put my two trains of thought down: the forensic scientist side, and the conan side (well i really don't have one, but I'll be using the constructs of conan)

First off, I am writing this with the assumption that the Anime is BS, and the only true facts come from the manga.

Now lets look at the Conan side (this will likely prove Akai's survival) Note: a lot of this will be summary from previous posts)

1) Discontinuity
    - The blood on the face/mouth
    - truck door closed
2) Time on the timer is only shown at 3 seconds, which was placed right next to whom we can assume to be Akai's head. As if I recall we see Akai's face in its entirety as Kir places the bomb next to him.
3) Two phones,  many different fingerprints (Jodie, Conan, Akai, Rikumichi, Suspects)
    - We are not sure what phone was given, or what fingerprints were present
4) (someone mentioned hand on chest --> hand in pocket) I'm just stating this as it was previously presented as "evidence" (poor evidence but evidence all the same) Akai's left hand is on his chest after he gets shot. Next frame hand is no longer on his side and right hand is in pocket.
    -Things to take note of: Akai is left handed, it is not strange for someone to only grasp an injury with their dominant hand. Akai's right hand never left his pocket, blood packet detonator switch? or simply old habit? (he did seem to like having his hands in his pockets)
5) Extended cab in Akai's truck
    -Back seat or storage for Rikumichi's body allowing for quick move and speedy escape out the other door?


Conclusions to be drawn:
Point 1: Either Gosho screwed up (shit happens when you are tired, and I'm sure an editor wouldn't question him >_>) or He is trying to tell us something.
Point 2: Time cannot be sensed in manga. So there are few possibilities: 1) We never initially see the time when the detonator is placed so Kir might have faked setting the timer, made the body switch with Akai, set the timer for the explosion. 2) The timer gave enough time to make a switch. 3) the timer was really only 3 seconds when it was next to what is possibly Akai's head (poor Akai)
Point 3: Assuming fingerprints cannot be faked. It could either confirm Akai's death or survival, providing that they didn't use modern fingerprint analysis techniques (explained later)
Point 4: Akai is lefty, I pretty much explained its relevance to the death scene above. But when Akai "returns" he uses his right. I don't care if you have amnesia or not, you are not going to switch hands out of nowhere, in fact, if you have amnesia, I'm fairly certain you will instinctively use your dominant hand anyway. UNLESS Akai was one of those people who learned to use the other hand to be ambidextrous, and his left is really his weak hand to make things more interesting, and his right is really his dominant (highly highly highly unlikely and defiantly implausible) Likely that person was not Akai.
5) Importance is stated above.

The realistic forensic scientist side:
1) Fingerprint analysis
    - Able to match trace elements on the body and match them with the fingerprints
2) Coroner's report
    - Akai supposedly had 2 shots, Riku had only 1. If that is ever released to us in some fashion, it will likely reveal to us who's body it was
3) The argument of blanks
    - Even if blanks are used, at that range, it is still lethal. (Brandon Lee was killed due to a blank setting off some shrapnel (supposedly a piece or whole bullet head) lodged in the tip of the gun, and that was long range) At close range, at 1000 m/s, even a wad of paper would be lethal (most blanks have paper in them known ironically as a "wad")
4) No fingerprint records? well what about dental. Assuming niether Riku or Akai had fingerprints on file, they would have to resort to dental molds. If he is positively ID'ed it must be Riku, if not sorry Akai, but you dead (as his dental molds would likely be in the US). I'm sure the police would make the effort to positively ID the body.
5) Since everyone seems to love to mention Reichenbach Falls, I'd like to mention the fact that, though Holmes did survive, he was never intended to. Also Akai /= Holmes, and Kir certainly /= Moriarty. If anything I'd go with that if it were Shinichi vs Gin (or even better the boss of the BO, and both died, and Shinichi somehow survived)
6) Looks like a murder
    - BO would try to make it as much like a suicide as possible, or a murder leading somewhere else. Might be a mistake on their part, but as I said before. Dead Akai = dead federal agent. Dead federal agent means official sanctioned FBI investigation joint with the MPD. Possibly leading into the BO.
7) Looking at the picture of Akai grabbing his chest/shirt, there was no bullet proof vest. Which means even if they were blanks he might have survived that first shot, but would have been injured (maybe explaining the blood in the mouth?)

Conclusions: Put simply... Inconclusive. The only thing that puts Akai in the grave is the shot. And that is the only thing we have absolute proof of. (Though its some proof that doesn't bode well for Akai.)

In totality, unless we are presented with more postmortem evidence, we cannot truly say yet. There is an equal chance on each side, but far too many variables. If we take everything at face value, there is no doubt that Akai is dead. But if the variables are within the constraints I have given, and we really weren't shown everything (as is full well possible) then Akai may very well be alive, but he has not returned yet, due to the fact that that person was a righty, and not a lefty. I would go through the points again, but I'm really not in the mood to spend an hr on this.

I'm actually grateful to see a forensic scientist here;) I think Aoyama's ambiguity lies in the facts he states in the manga. You present it for his death since he was shot and even blanks would be lethal.  Totally agree. Which is why I think it is almost ubermensch like to stand upright after being shot in the lungs. In a mere suggstion what if there were to guys dressed up as Akai, one the real one and the other one being Kusuda Rikumichi. Now assume for a split second: He wore a bulletproof vest and used fake blood, fell into the front seat of the truck but Kir turned the camera in the same second and then she shot the standing one in the head. She could have used eal bullets... on an already dead body. She placed the body, I presume Kusuda's into the backseat carefully avoiding showing the front. We saw the front but not Gin and Vodka. She placed his hands in his pockets beforehand (when shot on the body, Akai really did grabbed his chest) then after placing the bomb she took it out of the left pocket so that the one hand remains intact that touched the phone (Akai grabbd it on the side so I hope you back me up on the fact it is not enough to make it into a fingerprint due to lack of surface). Akai might have gotten a burn on his cheek, his voice might have changed but he does not have amnesia, he stayed with his traits as Okiya, who is left handed and like to keep his hands in his pockets. Pleae do tell me, where I'm wrong

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I'm actually grateful to see a forensic scientist here;) I think Aoyama's ambiguity lies in the facts he states in the manga. You present it for his death since he was shot and even blanks would be lethal.  Totally agree.

True in real life, but not in literature. For dramatic purposes, plenty of authors ignore the dangers of blanks. We don't know how liberal Gosho is being with his facts on blanks.

Now assume for a split second: He wore a bulletproof vest and used fake blood, fell into the front seat of the truck but Kir turned the camera in the same second and then she shot the standing one in the head.

There are several critical contradictions here.

Another body standing up next to Akai would be totally obvious. Even Vodka would notice if Akai had someone dressed like him standing up next to him when Kir arrived. That means that the body had to be hidden in the truck when Kir arrived. Kir was standing quite a bit back when Akai was shot the first time. The camera's field of view was enough to be able to see any bodies propped up next to Akai even if she turned away just after she arrived to give Akai time to prepare. Also we can tell from the art that there was no body next to Akai up until the first shot.

Spoiler:

This is where we come to the fatal contradictions: if Akai falls down in the front seat, how would the body suddenly be propped upright for the switch so Kir can take the headshot? Kir could turn around and Akai could pull the body out of the backseat and push it upright in his place, but then there are several problems. First Kir turning around at this point for the amount of time required to fiddle with the body would be totally suspicious. Gin wouldn't buy it. Second, there is no evidence in the art that Kir actually turns around at all. Third: It's a dead body. It doesn't breathe nor can it support it's own weight. There is no way in heck it would look realistic, even in the dark and Gin would probably notice Akai holding it upright from behind. Fourth, if Akai is holding it, it will fall onto him when it topples over. That wouldn't work. Kir would have to turn around. Again, Gin wouldn't be fooled. Fifth, the art makes it clear that she didn't turn around. The camera clearly caught Akai's fall.

Spoiler:

Sixth, your explanation contradicts the art. If you flip back through this thread you will find a discussion of the mysterious disappearing blood trails on the face. The fact that there are two non-identical sets means that both Akai and Kusuda Rikumichi were "shot" in the head. In your explanation, only one (Kusuda) is shot in the head.

You will need to rethink your theory so that it is consistent with the art.

[shinichi1977]

I'm actually grateful to see a forensic scientist here;) I think Aoyama's ambiguity lies in the facts he states in the manga. You present it for his death since he was shot and even blanks would be lethal.  Totally agree.

True in real life, but not in literature. For dramatic purposes, plenty of authors ignore the dangers of blanks. We don't know how liberal Gosho is being with his facts on blanks.

Now assume for a split second: He wore a bulletproof vest and used fake blood, fell into the front seat of the truck but Kir turned the camera in the same second and then she shot the standing one in the head.

There are several critical contradictions here.

Another body standing up next to Akai would be totally obvious. Even Vodka would notice if Akai had someone dressed like him standing up next to him when Kir arrived. That means that the body had to be hidden in the truck when Kir arrived. Kir was standing quite a bit back when Akai was shot the first time. The camera's field of view was enough to be able to see any bodies propped up next to Akai even if she turned away just after she arrived to give Akai time to prepare. Also we can tell from the art that there was no body next to Akai up until the first shot.

Spoiler:

This is where we come to the fatal contradictions: if Akai falls down in the front seat, how would the body suddenly be propped upright for the switch so Kir can take the headshot? Kir could turn around and Akai could pull the body out of the backseat and push it upright in his place, but then there are several problems. First Kir turning around at this point for the amount of time required to fiddle with the body would be totally suspicious. Gin wouldn't buy it. Second, there is no evidence in the art that Kir actually turns around at all. Third: It's a dead body. It doesn't breathe nor can it support it's own weight. There is no way in heck it would look realistic, even in the dark and Gin would probably notice Akai holding it upright from behind. Fourth, if Akai is holding it, it will fall onto him when it topples over. That wouldn't work. Kir would have to turn around. Again, Gin wouldn't be fooled. Fifth, the art makes it clear that she didn't turn around. The camera clearly caught Akai's fall.

Spoiler:

Sixth, your explanation contradicts the art. If you flip back through this thread you will find a discussion of the mysterious disappearing blood trails on the face. The fact that there are two non-identical sets means that both Akai and Kusuda Rikumichi were "shot" in the head. In your explanation, only one (Kusuda) is shot in the head.

You will need to rethink your theory so that it is consistent with the art.

The happenings are contradictive in nature. If you accept the fact, that he was shot in the lung, his injured body would collapse instead of standing, yet Kir shot at a standing body, and we did saw the bullet exiting. The other possible explanation would be my former theory, a switched gun which was shut in and both shots were done by mechanical tricks and fake blood and no bullet had ever entered Akai to begin with

[sstimson]

Another body standing up next to Akai would be totally obvious. Even Vodka would notice if Akai had someone dressed like him standing up next to him when Kir arrived. That means that the body had to be hidden in the truck when Kir arrived. Kir was standing quite a bit back when Akai was shot the first time. The camera's field of view was enough to be able to see any bodies propped up next to Akai even if she turned away just after she arrived to give Akai time to prepare. Also we can tell from the art that there was no body next to Akai up until the first shot.

Spoiler:

This is where we come to the fatal contradictions: if Akai falls down in the front seat, how would the body suddenly be propped upright for the switch so Kir can take the headshot? Kir could turn around and Akai could pull the body out of the backseat and push it upright in his place, but then there are several problems. First Kir turning around at this point for the amount of time required to fiddle with the body would be totally suspicious. Gin wouldn't buy it. Second, there is no evidence in the art that Kir actually turns around at all. Third: It's a dead body. It doesn't breathe nor can it support it's own weight. There is no way in heck it would look realistic, even in the dark and Gin would probably notice Akai holding it upright from behind. Fourth, if Akai is holding it, it will fall onto him when it topples over. That wouldn't work. Kir would have to turn around. Again, Gin wouldn't be fooled. Fifth, the art makes it clear that she didn't turn around. The camera clearly caught Akai's fall.

Spoiler:

Sixth, your explanation contradicts the art. If you flip back through this thread you will find a discussion of the mysterious disappearing blood trails on the face. The fact that there are two non-identical sets means that both Akai and Kusuda Rikumichi were "shot" in the head. In your explanation, only one (Kusuda) is shot in the head.

You will need to rethink your theory so that it is consistent with the art.
[/quote]

I have brought up this point before and I will again. Akia truck does not need to hold another body. So you ask that if Akia is still alive where did the fake body come from? The answer is simple. Remember the Police car answering an accident call that scared Gin away, What if that was not the normal police, but maybe either CIA or FBI ( More likely CIA). They could have made the switch and no one would be the wiser. Also remember that Camel escaped from a "death trap" when Kir rejoined the BO. surely Akia could have done the same. Remember after the "Police" arrive, all we learn about the event is from other reports.No more eye witness evidence. Basically second hand evidence. If it was the Cia then who knows how much FAKE evidence was set up or planted. I still believe the " Police" showed up too quick. I believe they were waiting for just the right time to show up and put their plan in to motion.

Another idea is the blood packs do not need to be set off. I am sure Kir and Akia had some kind of signal as to where to shoot to hit the packs. As for the head shot, It went through the socking cap and under that could be a bullet proof material and another blood pack, maybe even a exit hole creator.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Remember the Police car answering an accident call that scared Gin away, What if that was not the normal police, but maybe either CIA or FBI ( More likely CIA). They could have made the switch and no one would be the wiser. Remember after the "Police" arrive, all we learn about the event is from other reports. No more eye witness evidence. Basically second hand evidence. ... I still believe the " Police" showed up too quick. I believe they were waiting for just the right time to show up and put their plan in to motion.

Good point about a fake police car. I hadn't thought of that one. I figured that the accident the police were called to was arranged on purpose so police would be nearby at the critical moment, but I hadn't thought of the idea that both the people in the "accident" and the police might be in it together...

[Nyarl]

Remember the Police car answering an accident call that scared Gin away, What if that was not the normal police, but maybe either CIA or FBI ( More likely CIA). They could have made the switch and no one would be the wiser. Remember after the "Police" arrive, all we learn about the event is from other reports. No more eye witness evidence. Basically second hand evidence. ... I still believe the " Police" showed up too quick. I believe they were waiting for just the right time to show up and put their plan in to motion.

Good point about a fake police car. I hadn't thought of that one. I figured that the accident the police were called to was arranged on purpose so police would be nearby at the critical moment, but I hadn't thought of the idea that both the people in the "accident" and the police might be in it together...

I did always wonder why the police apparently never noticed the real Akai near the scene, or how he'd avoid being held as a suspect if they did see him. The first wave of police cars being co-conspirators, taking him from the scene, would explain that.

[shinichi1977]

I have reread chapters 608 and 609. Regarding to fatal contradictions I still don't know exactly how it was done, but it would be blind not notice a few things: Akai stands in front of his truck which door is open, yet the body which gets the headshot stands in front of the side of the car, well beside the open door yet we see a falling body from behind, although blood and brain clearly spraying on the car and not into the car, yet the falling body topples into it as the bullet exits on the other end. Akai reaches for his chest, yet the body that got the headshot has both hands in his pockets, even after getting shot in the head. We do see Kir with Akai's body in the truck but when she really places the bomb we don't clearly see the face of the person who lies in it. Which gives me the headache is that when she places the bomb, and the camera is in her collar, Gin should have seen if it is someone else's face. It would be easier if we would have seen only what Gin saw or the opposite just what happened outside of the  view. And if you pay attention you'll see that upon walking up to Akai, Kir finds something really disturbing the whole time. This case can be cracked by someone who is good in mechanics as it is obvious that what everyone saw was fiddled, and since it was "magic" we need to think rather like Arséne Lupin instead of Sherlock Holmes

[SkyVenger]

New progress:

Spoiler:

Bourbon seemed to know Akai and hated him more than Gin hated him... according to spoilers.
Is Bourbon really a new guy? Or someone we've seen in the past?

[sstimson]

Had another thought.Remember 425 and Gin with a sniper rifle? He could have shoot Akia himself and only Vodka would be the wiser. Why Did he not? Yes he was watching Kir, But it seems to make more sense if he did it with a sniper rifle scope. Does he secertly trust Kir?

[Akonyl]

Had another thought.Remember 425 and Gin with a sniper rifle? He could have shoot Akia himself and only Vodka would be the wiser. Why Did he not? Yes he was watching Kir, But it seems to make more sense if he did it with a sniper rifle scope. Does he secertly trust Kir?

maybe the BO is lacking members, so he wants to be able to trust Kir so he'll have another person to do his deeds, considering she was pretty high up originally and I imagine it takes a while for new recruits to be able to reach that level.

[Eve]

New progress:

Spoiler:

Bourbon seemed to know Akai and hated him more than Gin hated him... according to spoilers.
Is Bourbon really a new guy? Or someone we've seen in the past?

I was wondering what's the meaning of "new" in the organization.... official accepted by Gin or just joining???^_-

[SkyVenger]

Spoiler:

Bourbon is a "new" recruit according to Kir but he has hatred for Akai, w/c is suspicious. Meaning there's an encounter w/Akai in the past. Question is: have we seen Bourbon talking to Akai in the past or is he a new character introduced by Gosho?

*stabs self*