Doubts and thoughts about the Scarlet part

[AzureHaseo]

Kind of late but anyways, i wanted to share 2 interesting things i found, it may or may not be useful in the future.

First the facts:
1-At the end of chapter 893 Amuro talks with Camel about Kusuda, where Camel doesn't reveal anything, and then Vermouth disguised as Jodie makes him slip some information about how he died.

2-Thanks to the above, Amuro had some proof to believe Akai faked his death. In chapter 895 he goes and confronts him. There he had information of how Conan did his trick to know who was the spy during the Hospital part.

3-Back in chapter 603, when Camel was doing his mission, he gave Kir to the BO and faked his death. Vermouth was there when he "died" and i'll assume she saw it was him. Only Vodka and maybe Chianti had a clear view of his face so this is arguable.

Q: regarding point 2, how did Amuro know the trick?
This always bugged me, i mean, Conan had to do some questions here and there. It wasn't an easy task to know all the details to find the 3 suspects. I can't imagine Amuro getting that information the same way.
The other possibility i thought is that someone who saw the trick told him, and the more suspicious (for me at least) is James Black. I'm not going to enter in details here, but i always thought he was suspicious, probably going to post about that later.

T: regarding point 3, if Vermouth saw Camel "die" back then, and later sees him alive, wouldn't she think he faked his death too? If he faked his death the same moment they got Kir, she could think it was a trap and Kir was a spy. Moreover, Vermouth thought she was a spy even before she was caught. That would mean the idea Amuro had about the death of Akai being fake should be actually acceptable for her. And Amuro going back to her saying that he was wrong means she can also deduce he is also a spy. So by that single encounter, she could figure Kir and Amuro are spies and Akai is alive.
The question isn't if she knew Akai was dead, since it could be possible, but why wouldn't she tell so if she actually knew? Akai is not her so beloved Silver Bullet, she had no real motivation to protect him. Ofc if she didn't see Camel back then this becomes void.

[Serinox]

Q: regarding point 2, how did Amuro know the trick?
This always bugged me, i mean, Conan had to do some questions here and there. It wasn't an easy task to know all the details to find the 3 suspects. I can't imagine Amuro getting that information the same way.
The other possibility i thought is that someone who saw the trick told him, and the more suspicious (for me at least) is James Black. I'm not going to enter in details here, but i always thought he was suspicious, probably going to post about that later.

I don't quite know what you mean with "It wasn't an easy task to know all the details to find the 3 suspects."
But as for your other possibility: I don't think Akai told James the exact details of what his plan was, because Akai didn't want to inform him in the first place, so I'd he'd only give him minimal detail. And, for all we know, James was not at Raiha Pass.

T: regarding point 3, if Vermouth saw Camel "die" back then, and later sees him alive, wouldn't she think he faked his death too? If he faked his death the same moment they got Kir, she could think it was a trap and Kir was a spy. Moreover, Vermouth thought she was a spy even before she was caught. That would mean the idea Amuro had about the death of Akai being fake should be actually acceptable for her. And Amuro going back to her saying that he was wrong means she can also deduce he is also a spy. So by that single encounter, she could figure Kir and Amuro are spies and Akai is alive.
The question isn't if she knew Akai was dead, since it could be possible, but why wouldn't she tell so if she actually knew? Akai is not her so beloved Silver Bullet, she had no real motivation to protect him. Ofc if she didn't see Camel back then this becomes void.

Maybe she thinks Camel also faked his death, maybe not, I don't think that matters too much. They never confirmed his death in the first place, so I don't think they'd too surprised to learn that he survived.

Secondly, Vermouth knows that Bourbon is right. In 894, after Bourbon presents his theory to her, Vermouth smiles and then tries to talk him out of it. She knows he's right, but still wants to talk him out of it to protect Akai and Conan from his investigation. Just because Akai isn't the Silver Bullet in Vermouth's mind, doesn't she will just sacrifice him unnecessarily. Vermouth wants to see the B.O. fall, not ratting out Kir and Akai helps with that goal. Sure, she didn't do anything about him supposedly getting killed off in the first place, but it was a direct order from the boss, so there was nothing she could've done about that.

[Kor]

Not sure I completely understand your question, but if your primary question is "how did Bourbon figure out the truth about Akai's fake death?", the best answer that can be given is that he did his investigation off screen. How he got access to some of this info does feel wonky cause it doesn't seem like info that can be gathered so easily, but Gosho did establish Bourbon as a good detective.

[Uchiha Shadow]

Q: regarding point 2, how did Amuro know the trick?
This always bugged me, i mean, Conan had to do some questions here and there. It wasn't an easy task to know all the details to find the 3 suspects. I can't imagine Amuro getting that information the same way.
The other possibility i thought is that someone who saw the trick told him, and the more suspicious (for me at least) is James Black. I'm not going to enter in details here, but i always thought he was suspicious, probably going to post about that later.

I don't quite know what you mean with "It wasn't an easy task to know all the details to find the 3 suspects."
But as for your other possibility: I don't think Akai told James the exact details of what his plan was, because Akai didn't want to inform him in the first place, so I'd he'd only give him minimal detail. And, for all we know, James was not at Raiha Pass.

T: regarding point 3, if Vermouth saw Camel "die" back then, and later sees him alive, wouldn't she think he faked his death too? If he faked his death the same moment they got Kir, she could think it was a trap and Kir was a spy. Moreover, Vermouth thought she was a spy even before she was caught. That would mean the idea Amuro had about the death of Akai being fake should be actually acceptable for her. And Amuro going back to her saying that he was wrong means she can also deduce he is also a spy. So by that single encounter, she could figure Kir and Amuro are spies and Akai is alive.
The question isn't if she knew Akai was dead, since it could be possible, but why wouldn't she tell so if she actually knew? Akai is not her so beloved Silver Bullet, she had no real motivation to protect him. Ofc if she didn't see Camel back then this becomes void.

Maybe she thinks Camel also faked his death, maybe not, I don't think that matters too much. They never confirmed his death in the first place, so I don't think they'd too surprised to learn that he survived.

Secondly, Vermouth knows that Bourbon is right. In 894, after Bourbon presents his theory to her, Vermouth smiles and then tries to talk him out of it. She knows he's right, but still wants to talk him out of it to protect Akai and Conan from his investigation. Just because Akai isn't the Silver Bullet in Vermouth's mind, doesn't she will just sacrifice him unnecessarily. Vermouth wants to see the B.O. fall, not ratting out Kir and Akai helps with that goal. Sure, she didn't do anything about him supposedly getting killed off in the first place, but it was a direct order from the boss, so there was nothing she could've done about that.

Weird, I always figured that Vermouth smiled because she found his theory ridiculous, but now that you mention it, it makes sense.

[jimmy_kud0_tv2]

The way I see it, most of his information would be easy to get.
Not only does he have access to BO records, which would go pretty far,
but presumably he also has access to some form of police records.

1. Kusada was sent to be undercover at the hospital and was reporting the information he gained regularly. It could have been possible that Kusada had learned of the other two people who were by asking other patients if they had been disturbed by a kid that day. Or even after word, those two could have been still in the hospital and Amuro asked that. Or maybe Amuro asked that one nurse who said the thing about the slippers. Or even Amuro using his police authority to just get a list of patient names and narrow it down himslef.

2. Kusada went dark and his body was never recovered. From Amuro's point of view this could mean that he was either completely captured by the FBI or that he was killed/committed suicide in the process. Depending on how long Amuro has been in the BO or how well he knew Kusada, he may have known that Kusada was suicide-capable, but not necessarily how.

3. It would be BO public knowledge that Akai was shot, and with how detailed some of thier records would have to be to run thier organization, I would probably include that he was "shot in the head".

4. Kusada's body should have been handed over to the police at some point, there should be records of where it went. But there are not. Someone somewhere should have noticed that it had gone missing. Its not that much of a leap to figure out that it was taken elsewhere.

5. Amuro went around testing Akai's close friends to see if they knew anything about him possibly being alive. Both Jodie (bank case) and Camel (red shirts case) seemed to know nothing / thought he was truly dead. Through those two cases he learned about Conan and his intelligence and set up a situation where he would be close to him. He even got to test Masumi (after detective nocturne), whom he would have to know ahead of time that she is somehow connected to Akai. After which he seemed to really believe Akai might be dead until....

6. During Mystery Train he saw Akai. Which reopened his investigation.

7. Later he also learns from the police that Kusada was shot in the head, and from Camel that he was shot it his car. Then combined with the idea that Akai was shot in the head and fell back word into his car. After all this, he can put the information together and find what he wants to find, because he is a detective and is supposed to be smarter than us.

[David mason]

About point 2, did you mean to ask how amuro found out about the trick conan used to find out that kusuda rikumichi was the one who was a bo spy? If so I'd assume he went to the hospital and ask few questions here and there. But it is a small detail really

[AzureHaseo]

About point 2, did you mean to ask how amuro found out about the trick conan used to find out that kusuda rikumichi was the one who was a bo spy? If so I'd assume he went to the hospital and ask few questions here and there. But it is a small detail really

That was exactly the question, i didn't express myself correctly, sorry. I'll try to say it better.
Kusuda was just a non-ranked spy. He got the names to try and find Kir, that was his only mission. While he could have gotten the information about the other patients (the old man and the fat one), i don't think he was actually thinking about that because he didn't know he was a target. If he found the FBI before he would have reported it. The BO knew something was happening because he didn't reply the daily message. That means it wasn't Kusuda.
So if anything, Amuro got it himself. But still, Conan got most his information about one specific nurse and he was able to rule out every other patient because of Eisuke. The BO didn't know about him or they would have killed him, Akai said it himself.
He did found about Subaru being Akai by knowing the date he appeared in Conan's life (even if he was fooled, he got it right), but to find about Eisuke was their friend, that he heard the "Crow song" and, by knowing the date again, find about the new sandals which allowed Conan to have only 3 specific suspects out of 20 patients... that's just pushing it. BO's database wouldn't help with that, nor the help of the nurse. And that's why i found it weird.
When i said James helping, i meant him leaking this information, the recordings of Conan testing the patients. Few people actually saw it (at least that we know), and one of them was James (i pick James because i have another incomplete theory and this kinda fit, but it could be anyone actually).

...
Maybe she thinks Camel also faked his death, maybe not, I don't think that matters too much. They never confirmed his death in the first place, so I don't think they'd too surprised to learn that he survived.

Camel exploded right in front of them, they were much closer than Akai when he "died". If they believed one, why not the other one?

Secondly, Vermouth knows that Bourbon is right. In 894, after Bourbon presents his theory to her, Vermouth smiles and then tries to talk him out of it. She knows he's right, but still wants to talk him out of it to protect Akai and Conan from his investigation. Just because Akai isn't the Silver Bullet in Vermouth's mind, doesn't she will just sacrifice him unnecessarily. Vermouth wants to see the B.O. fall, not ratting out Kir and Akai helps with that goal. Sure, she didn't do anything about him supposedly getting killed off in the first place, but it was a direct order from the boss, so there was nothing she could've done about that.

It makes sense that way, but she does hate Haibara and Akai is her new bodyguard so...

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Just addressing the recognizing Camel part, but I don't think any of the BO got a good look at him.

The windows of the vans were heavily tinted, necessitating the infrared thermographer. Chianti specifically says: "The side windows are tinted so I can't see what is inside." (Artwise, Gosho was making the van windows clear for the benefit of the reader, the same way he removes bars/other objects from in front of faces when they are looking through them.) From the perspective of the BO at least, they were opaque. After the crash, Camel's face was never turned toward the BO while the door was open. It's probable Camel would not be recognized later. (This would have been part of the discussion with Camel on how he should act when doing the crash to avoid wrecking the plan up.)

[k11chi]

Amuro's investigation has been going on for a while now. He never believed Akai was dead and in rage wanted to find any possible way for him to have survived. He and Vermouth bugged Jodie and Conan during the spring coin whatever case, he's been with Kogoro and Conan for a while and he's been collecting info about all that. He doesn't care about the others because he's not BO, but he does care about Akai.

[David mason]

About point 2, did you mean to ask how amuro found out about the trick conan used to find out that kusuda rikumichi was the one who was a bo spy? If so I'd assume he went to the hospital and ask few questions here and there. But it is a small detail really

That was exactly the question, i didn't express myself correctly, sorry. I'll try to say it better.
Kusuda was just a non-ranked spy. He got the names to try and find Kir, that was his only mission. While he could have gotten the information about the other patients (the old man and the fat one), i don't think he was actually thinking about that because he didn't know he was a target. If he found the FBI before he would have reported it. The BO knew something was happening because he didn't reply the daily message. That means it wasn't Kusuda.
So if anything, Amuro got it himself. But still, Conan got most his information about one specific nurse and he was able to rule out every other patient because of Eisuke. The BO didn't know about him or they would have killed him, Akai said it himself.
He did found about Subaru being Akai by knowing the date he appeared in Conan's life (even if he was fooled, he got it right), but to find about Eisuke was their friend, that he heard the "Crow song" and, by knowing the date again, find about the new sandals which allowed Conan to have only 3 specific suspects out of 20 patients... that's just pushing it. BO's database wouldn't help with that, nor the help of the nurse. And that's why i found it weird.

I'm sorry I still don't quite understand your point. Do you find it weird how amuro knew that kusuda WAS the one who was a spy? Well there is the possibility that amuro investigated all the 20 patients who entered the hospital at the end of the year and was able to determine who went messing and who lied about his injury. In DC's timeline only few months have passed since then so it would be easy.

[Uchiha Shadow]

About point 2, did you mean to ask how amuro found out about the trick conan used to find out that kusuda rikumichi was the one who was a bo spy? If so I'd assume he went to the hospital and ask few questions here and there. But it is a small detail really

That was exactly the question, i didn't express myself correctly, sorry. I'll try to say it better.
Kusuda was just a non-ranked spy. He got the names to try and find Kir, that was his only mission. While he could have gotten the information about the other patients (the old man and the fat one), i don't think he was actually thinking about that because he didn't know he was a target. If he found the FBI before he would have reported it. The BO knew something was happening because he didn't reply the daily message. That means it wasn't Kusuda.
So if anything, Amuro got it himself. But still, Conan got most his information about one specific nurse and he was able to rule out every other patient because of Eisuke. The BO didn't know about him or they would have killed him, Akai said it himself.
He did found about Subaru being Akai by knowing the date he appeared in Conan's life (even if he was fooled, he got it right), but to find about Eisuke was their friend, that he heard the "Crow song" and, by knowing the date again, find about the new sandals which allowed Conan to have only 3 specific suspects out of 20 patients... that's just pushing it. BO's database wouldn't help with that, nor the help of the nurse. And that's why i found it weird.

I'm sorry I still don't quite understand your point. Do you find it weird how amuro knew that kusuda WAS the one who was a spy? Well there is the possibility that amuro investigated all the 20 patients who entered the hospital at the end of the year and was able to determine who went messing and who lied about his injury. In DC's timeline only few months have passed since then so it would be easy.

Didn't Amuro listen to Jodie and Conan's conversation about who was the spy and the way Conan discovered it? I'm pretty sure that's how he knew that Kusuda is the spy.

[AzureHaseo]

Just addressing the recognizing Camel part, but I don't think any of the BO got a good look at him.

The windows of the vans were heavily tinted, necessitating the infrared thermographer. Chianti specifically says: "The side windows are tinted so I can't see what is inside." (Artwise, Gosho was making the van windows clear for the benefit of the reader, the same way he removes bars/other objects from in front of faces when they are looking through them.) From the perspective of the BO at least, they were opaque. After the crash, Camel's face was never turned toward the BO while the door was open. It's probable Camel would not be recognized later. (This would have been part of the discussion with Camel on how he should act when doing the crash to avoid wrecking the plan up.)

True enough, that solves it.

Didn't Amuro listen to Jodie and Conan's conversation about who was the spy and the way Conan discovered it? I'm pretty sure that's how he knew that Kusuda is the spy.

That's what i was missing!! Chapters 850 to 852. I so forgot about those, feel like an idiot. Guess i should just re-read everything again XD.
Thanks for clarifying.

[Uchiha Shadow]

Just addressing the recognizing Camel part, but I don't think any of the BO got a good look at him.

The windows of the vans were heavily tinted, necessitating the infrared thermographer. Chianti specifically says: "The side windows are tinted so I can't see what is inside." (Artwise, Gosho was making the van windows clear for the benefit of the reader, the same way he removes bars/other objects from in front of faces when they are looking through them.) From the perspective of the BO at least, they were opaque. After the crash, Camel's face was never turned toward the BO while the door was open. It's probable Camel would not be recognized later. (This would have been part of the discussion with Camel on how he should act when doing the crash to avoid wrecking the plan up.)

True enough, that solves it.

Didn't Amuro listen to Jodie and Conan's conversation about who was the spy and the way Conan discovered it? I'm pretty sure that's how he knew that Kusuda is the spy.

That's what i was missing!! Chapters 850 to 852. I so forgot about those, feel like an idiot. Guess i should just re-read everything again XD.
Thanks for clarifying.

No problem, we all forget a few things sometime, after all DC is a long series.

[iamjohannas]

I am really having a doubt about Vermouth. Hahaha I think she knew that Amuro is a spy and then I think that she doesn't like the boss and therefore helps Amuro and her beloved Silver Bullet to take down the organization.