Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,051-1,054

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Now look at the shading given underneath Kohji's body, it proves that Kuroda also recalled Kohji on a floor.....

Have we confirmed that Gosho didn't correct Kuroda's panel for the volume release? If he didn't, this is really quite the piece of evidence. Kuroda is literally the only character who remembers Kohji without that trickle and pool of blood...

Volume 93 (which contained File 987) was released in July 2017. The Korn Scans translation of this File, made with Digital Volume scans, was released in October 2018. So yes, this was not changed between magazine and volume releases of File 987.

[Kudo Shinchi]

Re:andi2ews and DCUniverseAficionado, thank you. This feels like a potentially critical hint, then, perhaps analogous in both importance and subtlety to Jodie's photographs in the Vermouth arc.

[andi2ews]

Re:andi2ews and DCUniverseAficionado, thank you. This feels like a potentially critical hint, then, perhaps analogous in both importance and subtlety to Jodie's photographs in the Vermouth arc.

you're welcome. im pretty interested about this problem cause it's related to and old post i made some time ago, https://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=13563&start=30 .

and I'd like to add that i think the pool of blood is the red herring in the comparison between memories. The most important clue is the open eye in kuroda memories while the blood is related to the assumption of the APTX. After he took the drug he spit blood

[Reader]

Pretty interesting observations here and also from the post from a year ago which user andi2ews mentioned here.
If we consider the memories of Rumi and Kuroda in a time frame, It seems quite logical to conclude that Rumi's memory of Kohji is in a later point of time than Kuroda's.
(Based on the assumption that both of them saw Kohji on the floor in person).
This is kinda like the confirmation bias we have. We want facts to fit our theory. That is, one will surely say that Kohji was lying on the floor for some time. After a while, (because of slow internal bleeding or such), blood trickled on the floor.
But what if it is other way round? Saying that, someone killed and then spent some time in the room, wiping the blood and opening his one eyelid and planting the message , messing up the room etc.
Also in the pics, Kohji in Kuroda's memories has more bruises. Maybe those are blood clots that form over time, and hence appear much later.
That would explain how Rumi's memory takes place first and so on.

[Zerozaki4869]

But what if it is other way round? Saying that, someone killed and then spent some time in the room, wiping the blood and opening his one eyelid and planting the message , messing up the room etc.

Doesn't sound remotely possible. Cause the debris, plus there's also some blood in Kuroda's memory on Kohji's left lip.

Regarding the scars on Kohji's left cheek the scar recalled by Rumi is apparently bigger than the one recalled by Kuroda. So once could use that to substantiate the opposite assertion.

On another front, Andi's observation is correct, cause technically the blur on Kohji's right eye in Kuroda's memory can't be a bruise, cause the position of Kohji's spectacles. In Rumi's memory there's no scar there. So Andi was right in claiming that , the blur was not scar.
Could it be a partially opened eyelid....

[andi2ews]

But what if it is other way round? Saying that, someone killed and then spent some time in the room, wiping the blood and opening his one eyelid and planting the message , messing up the room etc.

Doesn't sound remotely possible. Cause the debris, plus there's also some blood in Kuroda's memory on Kohji's left lip.

Regarding the scars on Kohji's left cheek the scar recalled by Rumi is apparently bigger than the one recalled by Kuroda. So once could use that to substantiate the opposite assertion.

On another front, Andi's observation is correct, cause technically the blur on Kohji's right eye in Kuroda's memory can't be a bruise, cause the position of Kohji's spectacles. In Rumi's memory there's no scar there. So Andi was right in claiming that , the blur was not scar.
Could it be a partially opened eyelid....

i think the biggest proof which testifies that Kuroda saw Kohji in point of death is the fact that if you compared the two facial expressions of Kohji you'll notice that in Kuroda's memories he seems to suffer a lot while in Rumi's memories his face and body is totally relaxed, just like some time after death.

[KingWilson]

Good point there...
One thing i do not understand about Amuro's flash back when he held Kohji's favorite shogi piece is that he thought that this shogi piece may be connected to Kohji's killer, which may also be present at the farm... but... according to the B.O.'s aptx drug victim list, Kohji's name was listed on that list... so did Bourbon not have access to the aptx victim list? And he who is a code-named B.O. agent never knew or heard that Kohji was killed by aptx, which could only be in the hands of B.O.? Considering that even Gin knew about RUM being involved in the case of Kohji, it's hard to believe that Bourbon is unaware that Kohji's death is related to RUM. So... why did Amuro's flash back made him connect to a 'possible Kohji killer' based on police records, but not RUM instead In other words, why didn't Kohji's shogi piece trigger a connection to RUM from Bourbon but a 'fugitive killer of Haneda

This is a really good question Blackmoon, also like many people pointed out it impossible for amuro not to know that the BO was responsible for Haneda death so amuro must know that the Bo was involved in haneda death so then why did amuro say haneda killer and not Rum?

This is my opinion on the matter,
First possibility is that amuro already know RUM identity that why amuro said "dont tell me haneda killer is on this farm" because amuro know that RUM is not in the farm and is not the killer.

Also amuro statement suggest that RUM did not do the killing blow but someone else did and now after looking at all 4 flashback of haneda by kuroda, mary, wakasa and amuro the flashback that seems so suspicious like many people pointed out too is kuroda flashback bc of the lack of blood.

I think there many hint that suggest amuro already knowing RUM identity though such as saying No progress at all to kuroda, and in nagano case with wakita, amuro trying to use the card with dirt which some people in this forum said that it could be to get wakita fingerprints.
I think that amuro with yusaku and akai have a hunch that either kuroda or wakita is RUM.

Also RUM make a report to the BO that someone else kill Haneda and Bourbon believe the report.

Another second possibility is that RUM was the one that did the killing blow by putting aptx to haneda mouth but making false report to the BO that RUM dropped APTX because RUM was in the hurry when RUM hear someone footsteps and RUM imply that someone else did put the aptx to haneda mouth when RUM had escaped and that someone know about BO involvement and that someone has made the mirror message have anagram of ASACARUM and CARASUMA.

So the BO believe RUM report and that why GIN said RUM screw up because RUM let other people kill haneda and framing the BO and bourbon probally believe RUM false report.

But this is just my opinion on why amuro said haneda killer and i think the second possibility is most likely though.

[jason342]

What was Rum's original mission in the Haneda koji case? assassination seems the most likely, and perhaps the reason he messed up was due to an unexpected interruption by a another person that led to a lengthy struggle. Now i say lengthy because almost all the Rum suspects bear some form of physical mark a constant reminder of their failure and inability to complete the mission without interference (Either a missing eye, or scratch marks which Rumi possesses). This struggle between the opposing forces, led to kohji having the foresight to leave behind a dying message with the glass or else Rum would have cleaned up house and left no trace as per usual in the BO.

Amanda i assume was killed first and then kohji had the misfortune of falling upon the murder and was murdered shortly after.

[Spimer]

That's correct. It's mostly assumed that the intended target was Amanda given how her room showed no traces of a struggle.

Kouji happened to witness part of the murder or so, and so RUM fought him to try to silence him too, resulting in the mess.

Gin also says RUM screwed up so it's obvious he meant the Kouji incident.

[Reader]

I don't seem to find the file where Kohji's case details are first mentioned. Can anyone tell whether it was confirmed in the manga that Amanda was found in a different room or same one as Kohji's room, where he was found?
If found in a different room(in the same juke hotel), and if as mentioned above that Kohji stumbled upon the crime in Amanda's room, then does that mean that rum chased him to his room and then the struggle took place? Seems weird to me.

[ultraviolence]

@Reader: The case details are first mentioned in chapter 948 when Conan, Ai and Agasa check that website : )

[Reader]

@Reader: The case details are first mentioned in chapter 948 when Conan, Ai and Agasa check that website : )

Thanks a lot!!
There is mention of Amanda being found dead (cause of death unknown) on the same day and also how her room was without a mess. But strangely there is no mention of where her body was found. In the same room as Kohji's or do we just assume it to be her room?
The 'cause of death unknown' is the tricky part in this case.

[KingWilson]

Thanks a lot!!
There is mention of Amanda being found dead (cause of death unknown) on the same day and also how her room was without a mess. But strangely there is no mention of where her body was found. In the same room as Kohji's or do we just assume it to be her room?
The 'cause of death unknown' is the tricky part in this case.

Amanda body was found in her room, and the cause of death is unknown bc of APTX 4869.

[Reader]

Amanda body was found in her room, and the cause of death is unknown bc of APTX 4869.

Is this confirmed anywhere else in the manga? Because I don't remember reading it. Or maybe in the anime?
Regarding the cause of death unknown, we know Kohji was fed the drug because Haibara said so and also from the list on Rumi's laptop.
But Amanda's death due to aptx is not confirmed. I understand it is obvious to jump to that conclusion because that drug leaves no trace, but still...

[blackmoon]

What was Rum's original mission in the Haneda koji case? assassination seems the most likely, and perhaps the reason he messed up was due to an unexpected interruption by a another person that led to a lengthy struggle. Now i say lengthy because almost all the Rum suspects bear some form of physical mark a constant reminder of their failure and inability to complete the mission without interference (Either a missing eye, or scratch marks which Rumi possesses). This struggle between the opposing forces, led to kohji having the foresight to leave behind a dying message with the glass or else Rum would have cleaned up house and left no trace as per usual in the BO.

Amanda i assume was killed first and then kohji had the misfortune of falling upon the murder and was murdered shortly after.

Well good point there, but who else was involved and was present at the scene at the moment and could have unexpectingly interrupted RUM and led to a lengthy struggle? Assuming that Amanda really did have a body guard named Asaka, and it was the body guard who tried to stop RUM, but later fled the scene possibly due to another enforcement from BO, then it could also explain why RUM skrewed up because he wasn't able to complete the mission alone on his own.
What is strange in this possible scenario is Amanda's room was clean and was left dead in her room, so it appeared like her death happened before the said struggle. Then, if there really was a body guard called Asaka, why didn't Asaka prevent Amanda's death? Why wasn't the body guard around Amanda or what caused Asaka to be missing at the time? If the clash with RUM wasn't done by the body guard then who else could have been involved?
Now how about this possibility? Say if the body guard Asaka was actually RUM, then he/she could have easily poisoned Amanda with APTX without struggle or messing up her room, so it was an easy and clean job. Yet there was a struggle that appeared to happen in Kohji's room instead of Amanda's room, so why would that be? Was there any reason for RUM to go to Kohji's room after doing Amanda's assassination? The only reason I could think of is that Kohji might have saw or known something more than he should, and RUM was somehow forced to silence him because of that. So Kohji was bruised and injured during the struggle with RUM and eventually left dying and forced fed the APTX drug.

Then the real unsolved mystry is "Kohji's dying message" since it just doesn't make any sense... could Kohji have known that Carasuma was a shady organization at the time and knew about Amanda's death being linked to that organization? Could he actually have the chance to leave the dying message if he was forced fed APTX in which the result almost kicked in immediatly as was shown when Mary was forced to swallow it? Who else could have left the dying message? This possibilty also doesn't make sense: say to cover up the mistake of killing more people than neccessary, RUM himself/herself left "Kohji's dying message" and submitted a false report to BO that he/she skrewed up at the crime scene and was forced to fled the scene at the time causing the victim to left behind a dying message that points to Asaka = RUM and also a lead to the shady Carasuma just to skrew the boss?

Now from the case "A song named ASACA", it appeared that BO showed interest in the dying message as both Vermouth and Bourbon made their appearances, but really... why send out two high level members for such a trivial link? Was RUM also there and Vermouth and Bourbon was actually trying to protect Conan from RUM?

Anyways, too many unanswered question.