Bourbon's Identity: Who is Bourbon!?

[ThatPerson]

I think it's pretty telling that Gosho has somewhat gone out of his way to keep Conan from at least seeing Scar Akai (they were in the same bank and it seems everyone saw him but Conan). It sort of makes me think that once Conan actually sees him in person - 1) There will some detail about him that stand out to Conan, leading him to deduce his identity and 2) It won't be long after that until his identity will be revealed. My only issue with this is, like others, I'm not ready to believe Scar Akai and Bourbon are the same person

[Midi]

Just ooonnnnne question - assuming Okiya is Akai, and ScarAkai is Bourbon, how would you explain why Okiya said that ScarAkai wasn't who he thought he was?  I'm sure you can come up with a reason, I'm just saying that you should answer that question in that list to be complete . . .

... if we jump on Ms Chekhov's bus (which I have) the answer to that may be that he thought it might be Vermouth, who is excellent at disguises and the only Org member we know with this talent, so she would jump out at him right away. It could also be a pun in a way; imagine you see someone, disguised as yourself in a crowded place. 'It's not who I thought it was' may be a sarcastic way of telling Conan that a) he had seen the person disguised as himself and b) its not Vermouth.

Also, earlier someone asked the question on whether or not Akai knows Shinichi's identity... and it set me wondering: are any of these...

http://dctp.ws/V61-Reader/V61-10Read/A16.html

Photo albums? The image of the books on that desk is maddeningly unclear.

[User 4869]

I think what Chekhov believe is, that phase by Okiya is a secret message to Conan, that the guy who look like Akai is not Akai.
Here are some from DCW article that I assume at lest Chekhov partly write, If not all of it.


http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki ... _for_Conan

Okiya's comments that, "Actually, I happened to see him on that floor. Unfortunately, it seems he wasn't who I thought he was, so I didn't talk to him. I've known his face for a very long time... There's no way I could be mistaken."[32] His quote can be parsed: "Actually, I happened to see that person who looked like Akai on that floor. This Akai wasn't the real Akai (since I'm the real one), and I didn't confront him. Being the real Akai, this scar Akai is obviously someone else..."

[Akonyl]

First of all, if her contact was good she would have just said something like "don't worry about Bourbon, he's on my side".  She wouldn't have warned that he is tricky. 

that's not really true, if Bourbon was a good guy, Kir may very well still warn people that "Bourbon's coming, watch out!", because unless they are both infiltrators from the same organization, both Bourbon and Kir would have no way of knowing the other one was actually undercover (as neither would ever reveal themselves at risk of getting murdered).

[ThatPerson]

I think what Chekhov believe is, that phase by Okiya is a secret message to Conan, that the guy who look like Akai is not Akai.
Here are some from DCW article that I assume at lest Chekhov partly write, If not all of it.


http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki ... _for_Conan

Okiya's comments that, "Actually, I happened to see him on that floor. Unfortunately, it seems he wasn't who I thought he was, so I didn't talk to him. I've known his face for a very long time... There's no way I could be mistaken."[32] His quote can be parsed: "Actually, I happened to see that person who looked like Akai on that floor. This Akai wasn't the real Akai (since I'm the real one), and I didn't confront him. Being the real Akai, this scar Akai is obviously someone else..."

Going by her theory, Conan would know Okiya is Akai which would make it blatantly obvious that Scar Akai isn't the real Akai. If that is what Okiya meant by the message, and Okiya is Akai in disguise, that whole message seems rather pointless. There has to be more to it than that.

[User 4869]

Conan would not know that Akai may ditch-off his disguise for some reason.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Going by her theory, Conan would know Okiya is Akai which would make it blatantly obvious that Scar Akai isn't the real Akai. If that is what Okiya meant by the message, and Okiya is Akai in disguise, that whole message seems rather pointless. There has to be more to it than that.

Part of the problem is that Okiya doesn't know who knows what. Conan's original info about Scar Akai's existence came through the detective boys, and Okiya is not in contact with them. If we look at it through Okiya's perspective watching Conan, we can piece together why he might have said this quote.

Presumably Okiya followed (or went ahead of) Jodie and Scar Akai downstairs because they are a bigger priority than Conan. Conan came rushing downstairs in a panic later, and was confronted by and got into a conversation with Jodie that Okiya may or may not know about depending on how distracted he was by Scar Akai. In any case, Okiya could very well assume Conan only just found out about Scar Akai as of the end of this case.

Regardless of whether Okiya knows Conan talked to the FBI or not, Conan ultimately proved that he knew about the snipers targeting someone because he stirred up the crowd. Because of that, Okiya needed to clear up what is going on for Conan because the Black Org did so in front of a very busy department store which means whoever they were aiming for is very important or they were in a hurry. (If it was someone they could nail later somewhere more secluded or further away, they would do it, meaning that their target this time was critical, or they were in a rush, or both.) Okiya is worried that Conan's train of thought might be that Okiya went out of disguise for some reason (meeting useful personal contacts?) because it would be weird for the Black Org to go after their own guy if Conan was initially thinking Scar Akai was a BO impersonator. (But the Black Org really did make a mistake though.)
I think this is why Okiya made the other comment about easy prey getting away in front of Conan - letting them know the target was Scar Akai, and not say, Jodie. (Although Okiya was being unfortunately vague.)

If Okiya overheard Conan's conversation with Jodie, some clearing up to Conan he was not wandering around out of disguise opening would also be necessary because of the coaster warning message which even Conan seemed confused about. If Okiya couldn't hear the conversation, Conan's facial expressions during the convo would tell him that he should probably let Conan know what was going on so that Conan, if he ran into Scar Akai, would have the info necessary not to react or slip up in front of him.

[ThatPerson]

Chekhov you really have quite a talent for explaining your points extremely clear and coherent and what you typed here is no exception. I fully understand your post, its just Okiya's words to Conan that I feel don't really match up with your explanation, but we could go back and forth about that for hours.

[Shuusgirl]

First of all, if her contact was good she would have just said something like "don't worry about Bourbon, he's on my side".  She wouldn't have warned that he is tricky. 

that's not really true, if Bourbon was a good guy, Kir may very well still warn people that "Bourbon's coming, watch out!", because unless they are both infiltrators from the same organization, both Bourbon and Kir would have no way of knowing the other one was actually undercover (as neither would ever reveal themselves at risk of getting murdered).

I agree that if they don't know the other is an infiltrator, then Kir would still warn them.  However, if, as was being argued, Bourbon was Kir's contact, then it doesn't make any sense for Kir to warn instead of let them know he's on her side. 

[sstimson]

First of all, if her contact was good she would have just said something like "don't worry about Bourbon, he's on my side".  She wouldn't have warned that he is tricky. 

that's not really true, if Bourbon was a good guy, Kir may very well still warn people that "Bourbon's coming, watch out!", because unless they are both infiltrators from the same organization, both Bourbon and Kir would have no way of knowing the other one was actually undercover (as neither would ever reveal themselves at risk of getting murdered).

I agree that if they don't know the other is an infiltrator, then Kir would still warn them.  However, if, as was being argued, Bourbon was Kir's contact, then it doesn't make any sense for Kir to warn instead of let them know he's on her side. 

This gets a yes and no. That would be correct if Kir knew about who her contact was. But not true if her contact is know to her only by his CIA code name.

Also as I mentioned before and now will do again. I still have this major problem. If Bourbon is crucial to the BO, then there IS NO WAY an agent under suspicion like KIR , would learn about their existence unless the BO wanted KIR to know. It must have been a kind of test, and that suggest  that the BO must have a way to see if the INTEL they let KIR know got passed. They must now by now that it was. And that again raises the question why is KIR still alive. I raised the idea of KIR is being used to pass false INTEL to the CIA. That for certain the BO knows the INTEL was passed makes it likely an unknown agent within the FBI is working for the BO, but is not directly with Jodie, Camel, and James Black group. I know none of this is provable, but still it is the only way to me that certain puzzle pieces fit.

Also as the BO allowed the INTEL about Bourbon to be leaked, either they want them caught, their not important to BO activities, or their know to be either FBI or CIA agents and would tip off KIR that they are on to her and her role so they watch what they say around them. I  think the last reason is a good one for why I find it likely that Bourbon is agent know by the BO to be either FBI or CIA, is being used to feel them false INTEL and they are kept alive as not to tip off KIR that they know the truth. If Bourbon was important agent, then I say yet again, that KIR never should have learned about them until she was above suspicion. She is the recent case of the Red Coats proves not to be there yet, so why would the BO allow a possible traitor to learn very valuable BO secrets?

[Partsu]

what if Kir got to know about Bourbon through second hand sources?
Like from members lower than herself?That could explain why she knew so little of him...
and she ASSUMED Bourbon's mission, she may have heard that they had dispatched him recently...

though...Until th big Troll himself outright tells us how things are...everything we say are just theories...
some are good some are bad most are for luls...
some are possible only in goshoish way and some are more real-life way...

Sstimmson makes his theories suit "real-life" while Chek tries to think Goshoish...



AND now I'm babbling...just...ignore this...I just wanted to vent a little...

[Shuusgirl]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Kir pass on the Bourbon info AFTER the whole RF thing?  While Gin might have his suspicions of Kir, that doesn't mean that everyone else in the BO does too.
And if Kir only knows her contact by a code name, wouldn't she try to find out who this new BO person is, particularly if she knows there should be an ally somewhere?  Also, your whole theory is based on the assumption that Bourbon is a test.  Possible, but by no means the only answer.  As you said, if it is a test then Kir should be dead, especially with Gin, who's already proved to be a little...trigger-happy, leading her around.  She's still alive, therefore they're either using her or they don't have enough proof against her.
And I think Partsu has a good point in that we don't know where Kir got her info.  The only reason we know that Bourbon is real is because of the recent case with Vermouth talking to him/her.

[julytms]

In chapter 800, Vermouth is shown talking to Bourbon while Okiya, Sera and Amuro is shown with the cellphones. But I don't know if they one of them are Bourbon. Haibara is not reacting to any of their presence like when she is with BO.

[Paix672]

In chapter 800, Vermouth is shown talking to Bourbon while Okiya, Sera and Amuro is shown with the cellphones. But I don't know if they one of them are Bourbon. Haibara is not reacting to any of their presence like when she is with BO.

Actually, her BO senses were triggered when Amuro was driving right behind them.

[Rasei]

In chapter 800, Vermouth is shown talking to Bourbon while Okiya, Sera and Amuro is shown with the cellphones. But I don't know if they one of them are Bourbon. Haibara is not reacting to any of their presence like when she is with BO.

I don't think we can count on Haibara's reaction to the BO anymore. The last time she face an ex-member of the BO, she didn't feel a thing. Also if we can relay on her BO senses, then the real test be meeting her meeting them face to face. We know how she feels for Okiya right now and if we believe what she does, then Okiya is Dai Moroboshi. In that case, Okiya is most likely NOT going to be Bourbon, who hates Dai Moroboshi, aka Akai.

Another candidate for Bourbon is Date's friend that Date mention to Takagi? At the end of the Overnight Deadline, it is hinted Date's friend is Amuro but can we really be sure yet?