Is Sharon a BO member?

[Kor]

One of the problem with these theories is that Conan needs to be wrong, which until now didn't really happen.
Also, Vermouth is no longer the main focus between the villains. True, like Ai, she also has one or two mysteries left, but Gosho seems to want to reveal everything at the end. Any more theories, about a rather concluded villain who barely has any focus left, seem kinda unnecessary at this point.
Also, we have this scene: http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/434/06/
Indicating that Vrmouth is somehow connected to the Miyano's research. Maybe Sharon was connected to the research and died because of it, and then Chris took over, but I personally think Vermouth is both Chris and Sharon, and she had some connection with the research, resulting in her current status.

But we have to remember, Jodie is an FBI agent. Unless she was 100% sure Sharon and Chris were the same person, she wouldn't really think that way. It isn't logical after all to think someone is ageless, so Jodie or Akai must have investigated deeply into this issue. Plus, even Akai seemed pretty sure Sharon and Chris are the same person, and he kinda like Conan's equilavent, so for those theories to work, we have to assume Gosho made his two ace detectives' deductions be wrong, which to be is hard to believe.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

To refute Chekhov's valid argument about false fingerprint creation on the person, I feel the need to note that we are dealing with masters of disguise.

I propose to you this, Chris made thin latex gloves that have an exact replica of her mother's fingerprints on it. Thus creating fingerprints with no noticeable change to her hands. This is assuming that my theory is correct and this whole thing was orchestrated by the two.

It doesn't solve the problem of how Chris knew her fingerprints should be hidden because Sharon/Vermouth wouldn't know that the FBI had her prints anyway. I'll concede this point though if fingerprint forging was planned regardless of whether they knew the FBI had the fingerprints or not.

If the latex gloves are thin enough to be unnoticeable, then they are thin enough to easily shear and become damaged, especially if they are made of the latex material I have seen used in DC so far. From experience, latex lab gloves are made to be fairly durable and tight fitting ones can easily pick up nicks and cuts in them when doing anything that places strenuous activity on the hands such as opening a very stuck bottle or lifting something heavy with an edge. Mask latex, although I haven't personally handled any, is probably far less durable than glove latex given what I have seen in DC. I think it would fall to pieces quickly, or smudge and destroy the finely detailed prints when used on areas like the hand that have moderate stress demands placed on them.

I really think I'm taking the wrong tact with this argument. How do you prove your idea is probable, a step up from simply possible?
The manga has explicitly allowed aging wonkiness as part of its premise, so avoiding aging wonkiness in this situation really doesn't add much credence to the theory since wonkiness was allowed in the first place. In the spirit of Gosho making things solvable, there should be hard evidence (NOT SPECULATION) to suggest Chris was a real person apart from Sharon and took up her reins. I have yet to see any convincing arguments, in large part because there just isn't enough raw data or scenes where Chris and Sharon appear to make any evidence-based judgment calls about how they might be different people, copy fingerprints, or appear/not appear at the same time. This lack of evidence to me suggests that Gosho didn't want us to consider this possibility.

There is a significant amount of evidence that suggests Sharon and Jodie are the same person which I outlined already. Your theory really only tries to address one half of the evidence, that from Jodie's investigation. There is still Conan's half of the investigation to consider as well.

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@sstimson, the reason I am not addressing your argument now is in part because I have addressed most of it already and you seem to be misunderstanding my previous posts. Also, I have a hard time understanding and following your posts. This isn't helped by your arguments being scattered and not put in a logically connected order.

[kyuuketsuki]

To refute Chekhov's valid argument about false fingerprint creation on the person, I feel the need to note that we are dealing with masters of disguise.

I propose to you this, Chris made thin latex gloves that have an exact replica of her mother's fingerprints on it. Thus creating fingerprints with no noticeable change to her hands. This is assuming that my theory is correct and this whole thing was orchestrated by the two.

It doesn't solve the problem of how Chris knew her fingerprints should be hidden because Sharon/Vermouth wouldn't know that the FBI had her prints anyway. I'll concede this point though if fingerprint forging was planned regardless of whether they knew the FBI had the fingerprints or not.

If the latex gloves are thin enough to be unnoticeable, then they are thin enough to easily shear and become damaged, especially if they are made of the latex material I have seen used in DC so far. From experience, latex lab gloves are made to be fairly durable and tight fitting ones can easily pick up nicks and cuts in them when doing anything that places strenuous activity on the hands such as opening a very stuck bottle or lifting something heavy with an edge. Mask latex, although I haven't personally handled any, is probably far less durable than glove latex given what I have seen in DC. I think it would fall to pieces quickly, or smudge and destroy the finely detailed prints when used on areas like the hand that have moderate stress demands placed on them.

I really think I'm taking the wrong tact with this argument. How do you prove your idea is probable, a step up from simply possible?
The manga has explicitly allowed aging wonkiness as part of its premise, so avoiding aging wonkiness in this situation really doesn't add much credence to the theory since wonkiness was allowed in the first place. In the spirit of Gosho making things solvable, there should be hard evidence (NOT SPECULATION) to suggest Chris was a real person apart from Sharon and took up her reins. I have yet to see any convincing arguments in large part because there just isn't enough raw data or scenes where Chris and Sharon appear to make any evidence based judgment calls about how they might be different people, copy fingerprints, or appear/not appear at the same time. This lack of evidence to me suggests that Gosho didn't want us to consider this possibility.

There is a significant amount of evidence that suggests Sharon and Jodie are the same person which I outlined already. Your theory really only tries to address one half of the evidence, that from Jodie's investigation. There is still Conan's half on the investigation to consider as well.

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@sstimson, the reason I am not addressing your argument now is in part because I have addressed most of it already and you seem to be misunderstanding my previous posts. Also, I have a hard time understanding and following your posts. This isn't helped by your arguments being scattered and not put in a logically connected order.

First off, isn't it confirmed that Chris was a real person? Though it is not impossible to create a fake person, it is certainly not the easiest thing, especially if you are aiming to make them into a famous actress.

Second, all theories are speculation. There is as much proof that she took a drug to become younger as there is to my theory. We know she can become another person, just as we know that APTX4869 just HAPPENED to shrink two people. There is no evidence of any other complete drug that reduces age, and APTX4869 kills more often it shrinks.

Third, we know that, for a fact, the disguising abilities of Vermouth and Kaitou Kid are well outside the realm of reality. I'd assume Gosho wouldn't want to use the same ploy and use this as a twist for the end. So making them two different people would serve to prove Conan/Shinichi wrong, and that of course would be the ultimate twist for the ending.

Really in the end, these theories are just that. I'm just stating one possibility of many. And there is as much evidence to support my theory as any other, especially considering that those investigations can be mislead and the conclusions wrong.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

First off, isn't it confirmed that Chris was a real person? Though it is not impossible to create a fake person, it is certainly not the easiest thing, especially if you are aiming to make them into a famous actress.

No it hasn't been confirmed in the manga. The only one who said they existed apart from one another so far was Sharon who potentially has a conflict of interest and shouldn't be trusted. It's actually been implied that Chris was a creation of Sharon/Vermouth and never actually existed.

Second, all theories are speculation. There is as much proof that she took a drug to become younger as there is to my theory. We know she can become another person, just as we know that APTX4869 just HAPPENED to shrink two people. There is no evidence of any other complete drug that reduces age, and APTX4869 kills more often it shrinks.

The implication of another drug/thing that causes aging wonkiness stems from the argument that Sharon=Chris=Vermouth and that Vermouth wouldn't take APTX in its current incarnation because of its tendency to kill people most of the time. Even if you don't accept the first argument, Sharon=Chris=Vermouth is a reasonable position to believe because of the conclusions Conan, Jodie, and Akai came to. Couple that with the antipathy for the Miyanos and their research and the logic is in place to argue for the existence of something else besides APTX that messes with people's ages. Of course if you remove the cornerstone Sharon=Chris, then there is no reason to suspect another drug, but for people that also hold different but reasonable positions, it makes sense for there to be another.

Third, we know that, for a fact, the disguising abilities of Vermouth and Kaitou Kid are well outside the realm of reality. I'd assume Gosho wouldn't want to use the same ploy and use this as a twist for the end. So making them two different people would serve to prove Conan/Shinichi wrong, and that of course would be the ultimate twist for the ending.

I would at least hope for a precedent for fingerprint faking since its one of those things that can't realistically done in real life with technology available to the public today. It would be an arse pull if Gosho didn't allow us to know this was possible by DC rules before using it in a solution.

Really in the end, these theories are just that. I'm just stating one possibility of many. And there is as much evidence to support my theory as any other, especially considering that those investigations can be mislead and the conclusions wrong.

I'm saying the evidence isn't there though, not because it couldn't exist, but because Gosho didn't bother showing us any. It's easy to come up with ways the investigation could be mislead, but because Gosho generally always provides us with enough evidence to reach the correct conclusion, the current absence of data about Jodie's investigation entirely suggests to me that Gosho didn't want us to consider/ didn't care about the Chris taking up Sharon's role idea at all.

[sstimson]

Chekhov Please look again. I have tried to bring same points together, and have comments about each section. What more beside "I give up oh master' do you want?

http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?p=153028#p153028

[sstimson]

question on finger prints
if you keep like a mold on your fingers will there ever come a point where the mold is your fingerprints?

What sstimson is trying to ask is if you can change your fingerprints by putting other fingerprints on your fingers for X amount of time.

Nope. Your cells in your fingertips are dead set on one particular pattern. You can make molds of other people's fingerprints and put them over your own, but it's noticeable since you have something attached to your fingers. Also molds don't exude oil like fingers do, so attaching molds would leave no fingerprints which would ruin the effect.
Even with temporary destruction, fingerprints will grow back with the same pattern, and any other form of tampering like purposeful scarring or surgery will leave easy to notice signs that it was done. It's easy to conceal fingerprints by using gloves or covering your fingers with superglue or something like that, but, as far as I have researched, it's realistically impossible to mimic someone else's fingerprints so the modifications to your own fingers both work more than a few minutes and aren't noticeable (i.e super fat fingertips).

Not disagreeing. Just making three points. When in water for a long period, the finger tips look different.
Also a scar on the finger tip is there forever, changing in effect the fingerprint.If you press down on something long enough, you could mark a fingerprint of that by adding ink and rolling that finger. I do this sometimes when a mark is hard to read ( I do not make a print of it though )

So yes we always do have our fingerprints, but they can be changed in appearance at least temporary.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Chekhov Please look again. I have tried to bring same points together, and have comments about each section. What more beside "I give up oh master' do you want?

A little less condescension. Please understand it takes me time to work through your posts because your argument jumps all over the place through a wide variety of topics with no logical connection between them. Additionally, I understand that you may not be a native English speaker and thus grammatical errors are understandable, but some of your grammatical constructs make it extremely difficult to ascertain what you actually mean.

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The issue that the boss had no idea what Vermouth was up to was discussed briefly in reply here. The following reply with The Blind's post was intended to demonstrate how Vermouth pulled off the bugging entirely on her own.

I'm going to ignore the bit about Akai because this thread is about Vermouth, not Akai, and there are already discussions about your theories about Akai in other threads.

I'm glad you have evidence to show that Vermouth was an actor, claimed to have a daughter, and Yukiko knew Sharon ~10 years ago, etc.; however, I never questioned any of that in the first place, and unfortunately that evidence does nothing to ...

1) Prove Chris and Sharon Both Existed in the same place at the same Time.
2) Prove Fingerprints were changed.
3) Prove We have seen Both the real face of Chris and Sharon and They are not the same.

Sharon has told the truth about some things; however, it would be foolish to argue from that she must always be telling the truth if that is what you are trying to imply with this evidence.

Glancing over the rest of your stuff, I'm pretty sure I already stated that no one can objectively prove that Chris Vineyard cannot be Sharon Vineyard in disguise. It is impossible because there isn't enough evidence in the manga to make a strong proof from. Gosho just hasn't given us enough data to work with. We would need details on Jodie's investigation and the movements of Chris and Sharon to have hard evidence to draw logical conclusions from. So basically, your argument gets stuck in the realm of possibility because you will be forced to speculate on things, and that does not work because speculations are not a substitute for actual evidence.
The "default explanation" right now, as weird as it may be, is that Sharon=Chris=Vermouth per Jodie, Conan, and Akai. Until I see sufficient evidence to the contrary, I'm not going to relent on that position.

[sstimson]

You are doing what I ask you not to. I know neither can prove our case. Gosho left a void there. What I want you to do and you are unwilling to do it, is to tell me if my logical speculations are logical. Is it possible that my speculation is right and if so how much is it likely to be. Three people saying the sky is orange does not make the sky orange.

About Jodie's Glasses:

    Fingerprint matching does not prove anything when events like Chris being able to be anyone she wants enter. I believe the way the BO does things and it might have been touched on, they count dead body to make sure they are dead. Based  on this speculations they might even know who was missing. It is possible to cover their tracks, had someone change the records to make one thing look like another. This would protect the Real BO agent and frame another person, thus keeping a part of the Bo unknown. Why if a body was missing would they not take action? This would leave evidence about them. Would it not make more sense to make the real evidence, false evidence and cover their tracks?

    You missed over and over and over the Question about Vermouth's Plan and the Boss. Please answer this question: Can Chris order Gin and Vodka to the point where they will obey, or does such an order need to come from higher up?

[S.G.T.]

Hello everybody
I hope I do not bother anybody when I bring up such an "old" topic.
However I think I have a new point that proofs(or at least shows that it is not mandatory to believe Sharon=Chris) that 1.Sharon is not Chris. or 2. Aoyama made a slight mistake. or 3.Vermouth has a bad memory. or 4.Vermouth was not very thoughtfull in this particular moment.(or 5. I am taking things to serious)

The moment I am talking about is at the end of episode 345 or Vol.42 chap.10 http://www.dctp.ws/V42-Reader/V42-10Read/A18.html last page when Gin asks Vermouth if she knows someone named Shinichi Kudou, and she replies no.
Why should Vermouth if she is Chris as well as Sharon answer "I don't know"?
I had the impression that Vermouths intention was not to bring Conan in difficultys, but if she is Chris as well as Sharon she brought him with this obvious lie in danger or at least herself in trouble.

As Sharon she was a good friend of Shinichis mother and therefor she must have seen him or at least heard his name.
Wasn't it well known that Sharon and Yukiko are friends or does Gin or Vodka not follow gossip? I mean if Conan can find out trough Google a ten year old Skiing accident how hard can it be to find out about relationships between Celebritys. Or even that very night in NY oneyear ago is a pretty headline or do you not read this everyday?: "Former Japense Movie star solves murder case on the broadway."

So it was an obvious lie when she answered no.
However obviously she got away with that little lie since probably Gin did not looked up for the relationship between Sharon and Yukiko or he also did not thought so much about Vermouths answer.
Vermouths lie could have caused doubts in Gin mind.

From the point of view of Vermouth she could have anticipate these probable doubts with an easy replie like "Yes, of course I know someone with that name, the son of my old friend Yukiko(I also saw him in N.Y.)" but instead she answered  "I don't know".

Am I exaggerating? am I  missing a simple point? Or could it possibly be that I am right? Please please someone answer because for this issue i am having sleepless nights.
(Does anybody knows Yukikos Sirname before her marriage?)
Oh thank you sstimson for the link.

[Eri-chan]

Am I exaggerating? am I  missing a simple point? Or could it possibly be that I am right? Please please someone answer because for this issue i am having sleepless nights.
(Does anybody knows Yukikos Sirname before her marriage?)
Oh thank you sstimson for the link.

Hmm, was it Fujimine? Yup, just checked DCWW.

[S.G.T.]

Thank you Eri-Chan for replying so quickly

[Abs.]

The unanswered question here is

If Sharon is indeed Chris / Chris is indeed Sharon

Does Gin knowthat he slept with an old woman?

[Shuusgirl]

First of all, I'm pretty sure Shinichi's name isn't super unusual.  (Didn't even he say that or something?  Or am I just crazy?)  So that's like saying, "do you know a John Smith" and you going, "I have friends with the last name of Smith but...".  It probably wouldn't get her into trouble.

Secondly, how close where Sharon and Yukiko.  It kinda suggests not that close.  After all, Shinichi meets Sharon once before her "death".  If they were close friends, shouldn't he have known who she was before that?  Yukiko being at her funeral doesn't prove much, heck, I'd go to some classmate's funeral!  It doesn't mean they were best friends or anything.  Especially because she looks like she's just one of the mouners, not in any special position.

Third, the two of them aren't usually together.  The only time it mentions them together is at Sharon's husband's funeral.  Given that Sharon's in the B.O, this can be faked pretty easily.  Recruit some girl who looks like Sharon/Chris, have her play minor parts (at the funeral just have her be Sharon, as she'd probably be veiled and crying and unlikely to be looked at too closely) and then kill her when Vermouth is ready to be Chris full time.  Actually, I'm pretty sure that's what happened, because why else would Chris make herself so memorable at her father's funeral?  She did it to draw attention to herself, away from her "mom" (the actress the B.O. hired) and make it very clear that they're two people. 

The same can be said for Chris when she was a child (hire/recruit/blackmail/whatever evil they want to do some kid to play the part on rare occasions).  It wouldn't have to be often, because they're private in the first place.  Then, when Vermouth's ready to be Chris, kill the recruit and make sure she looks like Sharon to put in the coffin.  Body taken care of, extra persona taken care of, and no trace is left.

Oh, and given that this thread is called "Vermouth Non-Toxin Theories", to throw my two cents in, I think that Vermouth's not aging is the cause of the Miyano's research, not the result.  Especially when you think of the fact that Sharon could have also been her mother, who died the day her movie debuted.  It would, like someone already said, certainly explain her dislike of the research.

[Abs.]

The only time it mentions them together is at Sharon's husband's funeral.

I'm gonna stop you right there.

At Sharon's husband's grave, no one else was mentioned to be around, and "Chris" was supposedly disguised to look exactly like Sharon's deceased husband.

[Shuusgirl]

The only time it mentions them together is at Sharon's husband's funeral.

I'm gonna stop you right there.

At Sharon's husband's grave, no one else was mentioned to be around, and "Chris" was supposedly disguised to look exactly like Sharon's deceased husband.

Oh dang it, you're right.  My main point remains, though.  It wouldn't be hard for the B.O to get someone to play one of the parts for an hour.  In this case, it...
Oh wait, if no one else was around, then they wouldn't need a double.  Darn it, just ignore me...