Is Sharon a BO member?

[Kor]

question on finger prints
if you keep like a mold on your fingers will there ever come a point where the mold is your fingerprints?

... Like if you make a mold of your fingerprints, will that mold have your fingerprints on it? Well, yeah...

Apparently, the acids in pineapple juice erase fingerprints. I remember reading about these guys who baffled police by never leaving fingerprints at the scene of the crime, even though cameras caught them without gloves. Turned out they had been stealing because they'd been laid off from their jobs at a factory where they'd spent twenty years packing tinned pineapple, and the prolonged exposure to the acids had completely erased their fingerprints.

That can be a great material for a case!

[Abs.]

question on finger prints
if you keep like a mold on your fingers will there ever come a point where the mold is your fingerprints?

What sstimson is trying to ask is if you can change your fingerprints by putting other fingerprints on your fingers for X amount of time.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

question on finger prints
if you keep like a mold on your fingers will there ever come a point where the mold is your fingerprints?

What sstimson is trying to ask is if you can change your fingerprints by putting other fingerprints on your fingers for X amount of time.

Nope. Your cells in your fingertips are dead set on one particular pattern. You can make molds of other people's fingerprints and put them over your own, but it's noticeable since you have something attached to your fingers. Also molds don't exude oil like fingers do, so attaching molds would leave no fingerprints which would ruin the effect.
Even with temporary destruction, fingerprints will grow back with the same pattern, and any other form of tampering like purposeful scarring or surgery will leave easy to notice signs that it was done. It's easy to conceal fingerprints by using gloves or covering your fingers with superglue or something like that, but, as far as I have researched, it's realistically impossible to mimic someone else's fingerprints so the modifications to your own fingers both work more than a few minutes and aren't noticeable (i.e super fat fingertips).

[kyuuketsuki]

Okay... So I wanted to create a theory that was actually somewhat possible within the constraints of reality... so here it goes...

Sharon Vineyard was Vermouth in the Black Org.

She was the one that killed Jodie's parents.

She had a kid, Chris Vineyard. She taught Chris Vineyard all that she knew (Like Yuusaku teaching Shinichi).

Chris either was told about Jodie through her mother or heard about it through the Org, which would explain why she didn't seem to realize it at first. (unless she is like Gin and doesn't remember the faces of people she killed)

Sharon began disguising herself as her Chris to keep up appearances that she was clean, and not evil.

When Sharon died, Chris took her place in the org and assumed her mother's identity as Vermouth. Thus making it seem like she didn't age.

Naturally Chris was saved in NY by Ran and Shinichi. Whether the real Sharon was still alive at the time is up for speculation.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

At least one issue is how to explain the matching fingerprints. We have the ones Vermouth left on the glasses 20 years ago and Chris's from sometime after Sharon's funeral. Jodie says they match.

[kate_49]

Chris either was told about Jodie through her mother or heard about it through the Org, which would explain why she didn't seem to realize it at first. (unless she is like Gin and doesn't remember the faces of people she killed)

^this explains episode 345 (for me)

[kyuuketsuki]

At least one issue is how to explain the matching fingerprints. We have the ones Vermouth left on the glasses 20 years ago and Chris's from sometime after Sharon's funeral. Jodie says they match.

You can pretty easily fake fingerprints if you have access to the original person's fingerprints. People do it often enough to break through fingerprint locks. All Chris has to do is plant those to make it seem like it is the same person, then avoid leaving fingerprints again.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

You can pretty easily fake fingerprints if you have access to the original person's fingerprints. People do it often enough to break through fingerprint locks. All Chris has to do is plant those to make it seem like it is the same person, then avoid leaving fingerprints again.

It runs into the same problem as Sstimson's theory. Copying from over there...
The prints on the glasses were left 20 years ago and by accident, meaning that they are a genuine, un-tampered-with article. Sharon/Vermouth probably didn't even know the glasses with her fingerprints were preserved by Jodie whose testimony was no doubt kept a secret along with her identity in the witness protection program. Thus, Vermouth wouldn't have known that she needed to conceal her fingerprints as Sharon wouldn't know to warn Chris about this.
Also, it is impossible for Chris Vineyard to forge Sharon's fingerprints everywhere. Too many things require bare hands, it would be strange to wear gloves all the time, and the FBI in the USA has the mobility to obtain actual prints from many sources. Jodie certainly would have done this since she expected the birth records of Chris Vineyard to be false and therefore untrustworthy since she suspects Sharon=Chris. We don't know the circumstances about how Jodie got Chris's fingerprints and from where, so I won't bother with speculation about how she could have/couldn't have been tricked.

Chris either was told about Jodie through her mother or heard about it through the Org, which would explain why she didn't seem to realize it at first. (unless she is like Gin and doesn't remember the faces of people she killed)

Vermouth knew Jodie must have survived since her body wasn't found, but didn't know where she was or how she would look grown up.

[kyuuketsuki]

You know... she could have easily assumed the identity of her mother and just made it so that she copied her mother's fingerprints.

It could have been planned from the start that Chris would assume to be Vermouth from the start.

Therefore she always used her mother's fingerprints as an adult.

But again this is all theory. I just wanted something plausible that wasn't "she used APTX"

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I just wanted something plausible that wasn't "she used APTX"

I'll worry about the rest of your argument tomorrow, but who says Vermouth's anti-aging weirdness is because of APTX? Why not something else that the Miyano's were trying to replicate and thus generating Vermouth's animosity for the Miyanos and their foolish research?

[kyuuketsuki]

I just wanted something plausible that wasn't "she used APTX"

I'll worry about the rest of your argument tomorrow, but who says Vermouth's anti-aging weirdness is because of APTX? Why not something else that the Miyano's were trying to replicate and thus generating Vermouth's animosity for the Miyanos and their foolish research?

I used APTX because that is the popular theory, but I really mean any theory that is out of the realm of possibility.

[sstimson]

I Almost say this thread should join my thread. Please look at it. In it I am like you trying to prove they are two different people.
And It might either help or hurt your theory. My idea was either Chris killed or replaced her mother as the New Case was happening. It at the moment comes down to who killed Jodie Parents.If it was Sharon and to me that is not certain, then why the frame? Sharon I believe had not yet learned disguise under KID father when Jodie Dad was killed. I tried to get Chekhov to admit that since there are no storied about Chris just appearing, Chris must have existed as a Kid. So far no go. Chekhov also has never answered one question who is the fake Sharon or Chris? My theory if you are interest is here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3633.0

[kyuuketsuki]

I Almost say this thread should join my thread. Please look at it. In it I am like you trying to prove they are two different people.
And It might either help or hurt your theory. My idea was either Chris killed or replaced her mother as the New Case was happening. It at the moment comes down to who killed Jodie Parents.If it was Sharon and to me that is not certain, then why the frame? Sharon I believe had not yet learned disguise under KID father when Jodie Dad was killed. I tried to get Chekhov to admit that since there are no storied about Chris just appearing, Chris must have existed as a Kid. So far no go. Chekhov also has never answered one question who is the fake Sharon or Chris? My theory if you are interest is here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3633.0

It seems to me that we took the same idea and went two different directions. But being trained by her mother and a plot to replace her in the Black Org seems more plausible to me, and it destroys several arguments other can make. Like the fingerprint argument. If it was predetermined that Chris would replace Sharon, they would set up a method to fake Sharon's fingerprints. However, I'll merge this to yours, and make a new link in the reference thread.

[kyuuketsuki]

To refute Chekhov's valid argument about false fingerprint creation on the person, I feel the need to note that we are dealing with masters of disguise.

I propose to you this, Chris made thin latex gloves that have an exact replica of her mother's fingerprints on it. Thus creating fingerprints with no noticeable change to her hands. This is assuming that my theory is correct and this whole thing was orchestrated by the two.

[sstimson]

Then If I am required to REMOVE ALL SPECULATION for my theories then so ARE you! And you can start by removing from your speculation from here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3518.0 and here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3819.0. If you are not willing to do that then you need to allow my speculation and find another reason to object to my ideas.

You are taking what Chekhov said out of context.

What Kor said. I speculate sure, but I don't draw conclusions off of speculations and treat them as known facts which is what you are doing. I try assign any of my theories the appropriate weight it deserves based on the quality of the evidence and logic to back it.

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It Starts Here: This part is basically saying you only see thing so they fit the way you think they should. An example being the FACT that Gin was ORDER to be involved in Chris's Plan. If Chris can order Gin around,  then you are right the boss need no know and might have found out third hand. But if she Can not order Gin around then it means you are wrong and the Boss knew about the plan.

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You will say that this is not the case. My speculation comes from logical ways to look at this from Facts. No all Facts are facts set in stone.

Even If that means rewriting thing so they Fit the way you to see things.

Example You say The Boss did not know about Vermouth Plan, and Me showing HE must have known.

No input from you admitting that in this case you are wrong.

I am just showing you want your cake and eat it to. You are as I said seeing things only so they fit your theories. And then you present your theories as Fact not the theories they are.

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More proof about the above statement, this time using Akai. It is a Fact that Akai was killed. If he faked his death, then he is the only one in the entire Detective Conan History to come back from the dead. Please let me know if I need to explain these points more.

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Example you say Akai is alive though FACT

1) Real Person would not have survived
2) Gin not to see though your theory would have to be both OCC Blind and Stupid
3) You allow fingerprint change there but not here
4) You say that while Akai is alive, Akemi is dead though Akemi would have had a better chance to survive in Real World events
5) You will not allow that if one can be faked, then both can be
6) KIR MUST be under suspicion from the BO so any information from her about the BO should also be suspicion for FEED THE MOLE reasons yet you claim as a fact that bourbon must exist

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Next I list three ways to prove the my theory

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There are three ways to Prove this

1) Prove Chris and Sharon Both Existed in the same place at the same Time.
2) Prove Fingerprints were changed.
3) Prove We have seen Both the real face of Chris and Sharon and They are not the same.

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This part has been discussed but is needed for the speculation below

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But as for proving each was a star of film and so some of what sharon was telling Yukiko was true.

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/350/16/

Ran statement

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/351/02/

Sharon telling the truth about her daughter or Chris if you wish being a actress

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/351/04/

Other actress confirming. Really for whole page

Spoiler:

Proof of 20 years then Yukiko knew Sharon(part 1). next proof is Yukiko meeting Sharon early in her career

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/350/17/

Two points One learning KIDS dad tricks and the time of it. Two When the two met

Spoiler:

Chris shown as an actress


These should prove three things

1) Yukiko knew Sharon while she was learning KID dad's tricks. She had not mastered then yet. So Yukiko knew the real Sharon
2) Yukiko has known Sharon since high school ( early in her career ). At least 20 years
3) Both ladies should have been proven as actresses.

You have stepped in a good direction. Only one thing. You can't assume Sharon is being truthful about having a daughter. Based on the evidence you gave, we know Sharon at least pretends to have a daughter Chris and that Yukiko believes her; however, we don't what circumstances led Yukiko to believe Sharon had a daughter. What we do know is that, whatever those circumstances were, based on the way Yukiko reacts to Conan's deduction that Sharon and Chris are the same person, Yukiko doesn't think it is impossible for Sharon to have made up/replaced the daughter.

Spoiler: V42.10

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This is just speculation based on the above. It would be nice if this time you might comment on these

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I have also just proven some of what Sharon told the Kids to be the truth. Although this is speculation,  two other things should also be known
1) Sharon was married. (She talks about a husband, Yukiko does not call say something like you never been married. An as long as Yukiko has known Sharon she would certainly know if that was true or not.
2)Chris is shown as 29. If the New York case was a year ago, She would have been 28. This is the point. As Yukiko has known Sharon at least 20 years, She should know if Sharon had a kid or not. As Yukiko say something about her ( Sharon ) being proud of her ( Chris ) , she might not know if Sharon is proud of her or not, but since Yukiko has known Sharon, she should know if Sharon had a daughter or not.

Can you agree with any of the above points? One of them being Yukiko Knew Sharon before Chris could have been 20.

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Part one is the bases of the speculation to follow

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A little more evidence. Remember about what I thought reporters might ask. Well look what I found

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/344/10/

look at what is the reporter is asking. Who is your father, not who is your mother? That suggest they might have proof that Chris is Sharon Daughter. Also the Question about not getting along with your mom. Again showing they think Chris is Sharon child. Also this

Showing that Yukiko was at Sharon's Funeral.

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/344/11/

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Based on above. Also a look at all kinds of possible evidence that could be out there, but is behind the scenes and between pages. This is speculation of some of the things they might have found and why there was no story. I will address one of your points. You basically said
Chris is a very good actress and that part is true. Do you remember this saying: 'You can fool all the people some of the time; you can fool some people all of the time; but you can not fool all the people all the time. Yes Chris is a good actress, but the question is could she day in and day out without slips up keep the act going for twenty years? I like to use real examples and some reporters are like a dog with a bone. They are just going to work on that story until there is nothing left. I will also go this far. While the records of Chris's younger life must exist, they does not mean they are real. It is also possible some of these reporters watched Sharon bring home a new baby and they watched Chris grow up. Anyway this part is reporter speculation.

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But again at the above reporters Since there were no other report or news stories, they might ( note not must ) have found enough answers to show there was no story there or for sure there would have been one.
]

...

Using dots as these two parts are together. First Point speculation

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More speculation based on real world fact
1) Anyone who could disguise as well as Chris would have no trouble getting to fingerprint records and changing them
2) When Reporters who main job is to Report do not write a story, Then most of the time there IS NO STORY

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Next evidence that could be out there

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This is where I love to be able to enter the story. There is a better way to Prove Chris was always Sharon. That way is DNA. If one could examine Both Movies props that Chris and Sharon used and get DNA off of them. That wold prove there is only one. Again looking at the acting schedule of both to see if there was any overlapping events. Finding Movies made by both and running Voice check on them. Checking to see if any hospital records exist for Chris's Birth. Looking for Marriage records of Sharon. There are so many ways to prove it one way or the other. Looking to see if any computer records have been hacked or any strange events around such records. I really wish Gosho would show more about Chris and Sharon.

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And next a statement about using the lack of evidence as evidence

...

But without such proofs, you need to use the silents as proof. No stories about Chris being Sharon, Or Chris missing school records to me shows that the reporters found the answers and found no story. So there must be evidence out there proving Chris existed and was real, otherwise that reporter shown above would have reported his story. Also no rumors about One being the other again show it must be out there.

However this is just speculation based on how things work in the real world

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If you would please do not just say already comment  on. List part of the text and then the Link where discussed

Also you say I am not clear. If I need to go in deeper in any of my comments please let me know. I can not clear something up if I do not know what it is I need to clear up