Why did vermouth take the apotoxin?

[scineram]

They forged Social Security too.

[PokerFace312]

I'm surprised that no ones menioned this yet but, if you check, Yukiko only ever knew Sharon not Chris. By looking at the Golden Apple case, you can see that Yukiko must have been around her mid to late teens when she met Sharon, so considering that she's only around her mid 30s, it couldn't have been more than 20 years ago.
Taking this into account, we can also guess that "Sharon" was disguised to look around 60 (She must be older than 50 since Agasa's 52 and has no wrinkles while Sharon does), so when she met Yukiko when she was learning how to descise herself she must have been pretending to be aound 40 or so.
So here's what I wonder: Why was she that old when she was learning how to pretend to be someone else? It couldn't have been the Apotoxin deaging her at this point, because that's around the same time that Jodie's dad was killed, and by looking at the panels from where that was shown, I'm pretty sure that it was Vermouth, not "Sharon" (if that makes any sense...)
I actually have my own theory to explain this, but I won't mention it here since it will be in my fanfic <3

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I'm surprised that no ones menioned this yet but, if you check, Yukiko only ever knew Sharon not Chris. By looking at the Golden Apple case, you can see that Yukiko must have been around her mid to late teens when she met Sharon, so considering that she's only around her mid 30s, it couldn't have been more than 20 years ago.
Taking this into account, we can also guess that "Sharon" was disguised to look around 60 (She must be older than 50 since Agasa's 52 and has no wrinkles while Sharon does), so when she met Yukiko when she was learning how to descise herself she must have been pretending to be aound 40 or so.
So here's what I wonder: Why was she that old when she was learning how to pretend to be someone else? It couldn't have been the Apotoxin deaging her at this point, because that's around the same time that Jodie's dad was killed, and by looking at the panels from where that was shown, I'm pretty sure that it was Vermouth, not "Sharon" (if that makes any sense...)
I actually have my own theory to explain this, but I won't mention it here since it will be in my fanfic <3

You make a good point about how Sharon must have already been disguising her age when she was learning disguise from Toichi (assuming she started learning around the same time as Yukiko). If she was an actress or actress in training before that time, maybe her stage skills were enough to disguise herself before her stint with Toichi. Haibara did think at one point, "Kudo-kun? You would probably never even dream that you are already part of a project the Black Organization has been working on already for half a century." (file 189, but see the ep 130/131 for a better translation) The only known intersection between Shinichi and the Org is the apoptoxin, so presumably Haibara is referring to the project the apoptoxin is a part of. There could be other components of the project we don't know about, and there probably are given the Org's interest in programmers as well as scientists. Vermouth could have been involved in one of the non APTX branches which resulted in her aging wonkiness. I agree that Sharon has to be at least 48 (29 Chris's current age -1 year ago + 20) unless Sharon wanted to pretend she was pregnant as a teen.

[CC]

They forged Social Security too.

Yeah...that's impossible...which is what makes it so suspicious/confusing.  Someone might be able to use a dead person's SS# to fool a prospective employer, but the FBI would figure it out in a heartbeat.  It's impossible to pull a SS# out of thin air...(well, maybe Kaitou Kid would care to try  )  You know Holmes's famous quote:  "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."  So...what is the truth?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

They forged Social Security too.

Yeah...that's impossible...which is what makes it so suspicious/confusing.  Someone might be able to use a dead person's SS# to fool a prospective employer, but the FBI would figure it out in a heartbeat.  It's impossible to pull a SS# out of thin air...(well, maybe Kaitou Kid would care to try  )  You know Holmes's famous quote:  "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."  So...what is the truth?

I heard somewhere that before some legislative changes in the seventies and early eighties, it was somewhat common for teens not to have a social security number because they didn't earn an income. I don't know if this is true or not, but maybe someone can corroborate. In Sharon's case, she may have paid off the attending doctors/nurses/hospital who issue the birth records to generate a birth certificate for Chris' "birth" and applied for the SSN like most parents do when their child is born. The controls for fraud like this are better these days, but when Chris was supposedly born which I am going to guess is something like the seventies to eighties DC time, fraud detection was probably not as sophisticated.

[CC]

They forged Social Security too.

Yeah...that's impossible...which is what makes it so suspicious/confusing.  Someone might be able to use a dead person's SS# to fool a prospective employer, but the FBI would figure it out in a heartbeat.  It's impossible to pull a SS# out of thin air...(well, maybe Kaitou Kid would care to try  )  You know Holmes's famous quote:  "Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."  So...what is the truth?

I heard somewhere that before some legislative changes in the seventies and early eighties, it was somewhat common for teens not to have a social security number because they didn't earn an income. I don't know if this is true or not, but maybe someone can corroborate. In Sharon's case, she may have paid off the attending doctors/nurses/hospital who issue the birth records to generate a birth certificate for Chris' "birth" and applied for the SSN like most parents do when their child is born. The controls for fraud like this are better these days, but when Chris was supposedly born which I am going to guess is something like the seventies to eighties DC time, fraud detection was probably not as sophisticated.

It's true that non-working children aren't required to get a SS#, but in order for "Chris" to have established her movie career she would have needed one.  And if she had gotten it after a certain age (I think it's 12), she would have needed to appear in person to obtain it.  If Sharon bribed the doctors before then, then she would have needed to have been involved in the BO for at least 10 years prior to her "death".  I don't know how a 40 year-old woman could disguise herself as a 12-15 year old, so I think it's safe to say she didn't obtain it during that period.  If she obtained it after that period, then you run into sophisticated fraud detection.

[Abs.]

Jodie's investigations seems to uncovered that Vermouth, Sharon, and Chris were all the same person. Since Chris first appeared in public at the "funeral" of her mother, it was implied that Chris never really existed apart from Vermouth/Sharon, her life was a fabrication and she was simply another persona created by Vermouth to hide the fact that she has some sort of aging wonkiness going on.

Gonna catch you on this one...  Sharon mentioned in File 351 (Volume 35, File 1) (aka Golden Apple 2nd chapter) that Chris had made her debut easily...  That would mean, of course, that Chris had already existed in the public eye at that time.

In case you ask for it, my take on the translation for that portion:

Spoiler:

PAGE 2
1.1.  ã

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I suppose you could take "first appeared before the mass media" to mean "first came out to the public..."  My translation of that bubble goes thus: "In any case, except for filming, it seems that the first time she appeared before the mass media was on that day one year ago..."  The point being that I suppose Sharon did put some effort into "Chris" before her "death."

However, what interests me more in the pages you pointed out is the question, "Will your rumored lover come this funeral?"  -- Who is this rumored lover?  It should be easy enough for Agasa or someone to find out...

Of course, of lesser importance is the question, "Just who is your father?" because of the fact that it implies that "Chris" was born after Sharon's husband died...

About the husband in the golden apple case according to Sharon:

Spoiler:

Is Sharon Vermouth's first alias? Sharon's parents dying on the day of her screen debut is suspicious of course. Just how old is she? Vermouth would have to be 70-85 if Sharon's mom was the same person... It's turtles, ...err actresses, all the way down.

[Abs.]

That's right, isn't it...

I completely forgot about that HIGHLY suspicious part...  Damn...  I might not be so much in lust with her character if she turns out to be 70-85 


If Chris and Sharon are indeed the same person...  What was the point of Sharon "revealing" the bit about Chris showing up at Sharon's husband's grave disguised to look exactly like him?

Perhaps...

• Sharon's husband didn't really die, and Sharon's trying to cover in case someone saw her husband at his own grave.

-or-

• She's just laying it on a bit thick as to the existence of "bad egg" Chris.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Well, if Vermouth is really 70 to 85, it would seem to rule out the Miyanos as being the cause of the aging strangeness. They would be too young for the time frame.  It would have to be Shiho's grandparents or someone else. I wonder if the boss is as old as Vermouth? At this rate, he might be the real Moriarty.

[soratothamax]

I'm surprised that no ones menioned this yet but, if you check, Yukiko only ever knew Sharon not Chris. By looking at the Golden Apple case, you can see that Yukiko must have been around her mid to late teens when she met Sharon, so considering that she's only around her mid 30s, it couldn't have been more than 20 years ago.
Taking this into account, we can also guess that "Sharon" was disguised to look around 60 (She must be older than 50 since Agasa's 52 and has no wrinkles while Sharon does), so when she met Yukiko when she was learning how to descise herself she must have been pretending to be aound 40 or so.
So here's what I wonder: Why was she that old when she was learning how to pretend to be someone else? It couldn't have been the Apotoxin deaging her at this point, because that's around the same time that Jodie's dad was killed, and by looking at the panels from where that was shown, I'm pretty sure that it was Vermouth, not "Sharon" (if that makes any sense...)
I actually have my own theory to explain this, but I won't mention it here since it will be in my fanfic <3

I just realized what you said! It makes perfect sense! How COULD Jodie-sensei have been a little girl, and Chris have been an adult when she killed Jodie's father?

Now Jodie is older, and Chris looks as if she hasn't aged a bit....this is quite mysterious! hmmm....

I was thinking maybe Chris was disguised as being older, while she was in her teens, and then took off the mask to "kill" Sharon, and changed her name to Chris. Vermouth has been known to change her face with many different masks....

It's so perplexing. But they said Vermouth was taught by Kaito Kid's dad how to be a master in disguise...who knows...

Or maybe her mother was also originally in the BO, and they killed her, and Vermouth took her place....

[CC]

I'm surprised that no ones menioned this yet but, if you check, Yukiko only ever knew Sharon not Chris. By looking at the Golden Apple case, you can see that Yukiko must have been around her mid to late teens when she met Sharon, so considering that she's only around her mid 30s, it couldn't have been more than 20 years ago.
Taking this into account, we can also guess that "Sharon" was disguised to look around 60 (She must be older than 50 since Agasa's 52 and has no wrinkles while Sharon does), so when she met Yukiko when she was learning how to descise herself she must have been pretending to be aound 40 or so.
So here's what I wonder: Why was she that old when she was learning how to pretend to be someone else? It couldn't have been the Apotoxin deaging her at this point, because that's around the same time that Jodie's dad was killed, and by looking at the panels from where that was shown, I'm pretty sure that it was Vermouth, not "Sharon" (if that makes any sense...)
I actually have my own theory to explain this, but I won't mention it here since it will be in my fanfic <3

I just realized what you said! It makes perfect sense! How COULD Jodie-sensei have been a little girl, and Chris have been an adult when she killed Jodie's father?

Now Jodie is older, and Chris looks as if she hasn't aged a bit....this is quite mysterious! hmmm....

I was thinking maybe Chris was disguised as being older, while she was in her teens, and then took off the mask to "kill" Sharon, and changed her name to Chris. Vermouth has been known to change her face with many different masks....

It's so perplexing. But they said Vermouth was taught by Kaito Kid's dad how to be a master in disguise...who knows...

Or maybe her mother was also originally in the BO, and they killed her, and Vermouth took her place....

Okay, so I went back and watched 345 (sorry, I don't know what the corresponding manga chapters are)...and a few things:

1)  Oops, my bad:  Jodie does say she "investigated" and found Chris and Sharon were the same person so I'm guessing she already researched the SS stuff...gomen, Jodie-san, for not giving enough credit to your competence.  
2)  Akai says that it has to be Vermouth's "true face" b/c her face was injured in the confrontation at that time b/w Jodie, Vermouth, Calvados, and Akai.  In the flashback to Jodie's childhood when Chris/Vermouth killed her father, it also shows Chris's face being injured, probably intended to show that that was her "true face" as well.  So...she had to have taken the APTX at some point or something b/c as Jodie says, she really does never age.

Edit:  Oh yeah, and...
3)  When Vermouth is about to shoot Haibara, she says "don't blame me, blame your stupid parents for starting the project", which does seem to indicate that she has more of a reason for wanting to kill Sherry than just to take care of the traitor.  Also, her franticness when she's shouting at Ran to get away from Sherry so that Vermouth can shoot her also supports this.

[scineram]

"Will your rumored lover come this funeral?"  -- Who is this rumored lover?  It should be easy enough for Agasa or someone to find out...

Not so.

[pofa]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but it's about Vermouth, so...

Over in the Magic Kaitou thread, we were discussing why Conan hasn't tried to figure out who Kid is, and it was brought up that Shinichi has never shown much interest in learning about Toichi Kuroba. That struck me as odd: even if Shinichi is too young to have remembered Toichi (if he ever met the non-Kid version), he heard his mother mention that Toichi taught disguising techniques to Sharon Vineyard. I wonder why Conan (or for that matter Jodie-sensei--does she know about this?) has never pursued such a clear lead to Vermouth's past?

Maybe Gosho doesn't want Conan looking into Toichi's death, if he's determined to keep the MK and DC organizations separate. But even so, Conan could still ask his mother about Sharon. He knows so little about Vermouth, and Yukiko might remember something useful.

Is it that Shinichi is determined to do this on his own and doesn't want to ask his parents for help? Or does he think that he knows as much or more about Sharon than his mother probably does? (I know there's been discussion about whether Sharon actually is Vermouth, but doesn't Conan think she might be, anyway?)

Has this already been discussed somewhere else--or is it even worth discussing? 

[caribou]

ohh that's true. at first I thought it was the DC-MK world separation too, but Conan could still ask his mother... even without the connection to Kuroba, he already knows that his mother and Sharon were friends (the meeting in NY). i guess finding out about Vermouth is not his priority at the moment, I have no idea what is going on in Conan's head right now actually, he seems to have forgotten about the BO for now.