Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

[Zerozaki4869]

As far as Wakita is concerned, Gosho said that he's inspired from Ashita no Joe's Danpei Tange, the alcoholic coach of Joe. Now the only two persons(important characters) who seemed to be taught boxing or some kind of martial art are Amuro and Akai. So Wakita can very well be mentor/coach/NPB boss of Amuro or Akai senior. More likely to be Amuro's boss less likely to be Akai senior. The reasoning that he drugged Mary, mentor of Gin is just too premature and preemptive.

Also it will make Rumi a total Moron to glare at a suspicious person(kuroda). We never see Vermi-Araide glaring at Jodi. So did Vermouth become a Moron by chapter 989??

Iori is probably Asaka the lackey of Rum.

[MeiTanteixX]

What I also don't get is, if you believe there was a shogi piece in the crime scene as part of a dying message, why should Kouji bother to break a shard of glass in a very specific manner in order to somehow hint that a shogi piece is related. The shogi piece should already be there, no?

This would mean that Kohji was alluding to that a Shogi piece was involved in the dying message(most likely as a precaution, in case the culprit took that shogi piece from his hand)

Besides, if you do believe that there was a shogi piece in the crime scene, isn't it far more simple to just assume that whatever Rumi has in her pockets is indeed a shogi piece and not a shard of glass that's supposed to hint at a shogi piece?

I'm not looking for a conveniently simple answer, I'm looking for the truth. Now, if you truly think that the shape of the unknown object in Rumi's pocket looks like a shogi piece, then be my guest, that's your impression.

Now I'm not gonna really argue against all the tiny specifics of your theories cause others can probably do that, but here's a different perspective: Do you actually hope for said theories to be correct?

Nope, but I don't mind them.

Far as I can tell there's been no indication of Gin having a mentor figure nor that there's yet some other close subordinate to the boss going around (who isn't Rum) that the readers should be aware about. I mean, maybe down the road Gosho may indicate that there is such a role, but so far, there isn't, so it hardly seems like an appropriate answer at this point.

that depends on what you consider an "indication". In my case, I look at everything that Gosho is doing, including the "kamen yaiba" foreshadowings.

Further more, by having Rumi be Vermouth, that means she suddenly has these abilities that have never been indicated before. We've never seen her fighting and there's been no indication she's some super detective (as I mentioned earlier).

She showed acrobatic skills(as a serial killer) and endurance(File 434), meaning she's physically trained. We got to see a completely different side of Akai through Subaru, so I wouldn't put past us getting new stuff from Vermouth, if she disguised as Rumi. How many opportunities has Vermouth had to participate in a case investigation without consequences?

I'm just advocating that no one should hope for these theories to be correct because the consequences on the text would be pretty dire.

Until Gosho makes an attempt on using him as a red-herring(meaning that he makes a character suspect him openly), with his appearance, he's still a suspect in my book.

[Zerozaki4869]

The unknown object in Rumi's pocket is too big and thick to be U shard.
The size of an average back/hip pocket is around 3" wide and 4" deep. The object looks to have a height around 1/4 of the depth of the pocket and the width is probably around 1/6 the of the pocket. Which makes the object a pointed pentagon with height around 1" and width around .5". That's just too big to be a shard but big enough to be a Shogi piece. Also Rumi clutching onto a glass shard with a very high amount of pressure makes her a potential mental retard in my book. I think Rumi can be a vicious person but not a mental retard.

[Kor]

But Gosho doesn't even do the DB mysteries in canon anymore. So what is the purpose of having these silly encounters with Iori and this teenage girl? If he isn't having alot of filler now why are we having this? What do we have to gain from these encounters?

To promote a cartoon movie called Detective Conan: Crimson Love Letter in which these two characters appear in, probably.

I'm not looking for a conveniently simple answer, I'm looking for the truth. Now, if you truly think that the shape of the unknown object in Rumi's pocket looks like a shogi piece, then be my guest, that's your impression.

But considering all the solutions in the past 10 years to the mysteries involved fairly simple answers, what makes this one in the need for such a needlessly over-complicated solution which involves Vermouth taking a glass shard from a crime scene 17 years ago (which Kouji as you suggested cut out in order to hint that a shogi piece is related even though he already had with him a shogi piece there according to you) and disguising as some random teacher with said glass shard in her pocket with the objective of getting Conan to trust her and making him think what she has in her pocket is actually a shogi piece?

[Zerozaki4869]

Kor, you also forgot to mention that the object is too big and thick to be the glass shard.

[alphajjc]

But Gosho doesn't even do the DB mysteries in canon anymore. So what is the purpose of having these silly encounters with Iori and this teenage girl? If he isn't having alot of filler now why are we having this? What do we have to gain from these encounters?

To promote a cartoon movie called Detective Conan: Crimson Love Letter in which these two characters appear in, probably.

I'm not looking for a conveniently simple answer, I'm looking for the truth. Now, if you truly think that the shape of the unknown object in Rumi's pocket looks like a shogi piece, then be my guest, that's your impression.

But considering all the solutions in the past 10 years to the mysteries involved fairly simple answers, what makes this one in the need for such a needlessly over-complicated solution which involves Vermouth taking a glass shard from a crime scene 17 years ago (which Kouji as you suggested cut out in order to hint that a shogi piece is related even though he already had with him a shogi piece there according to you) and disguising as some random teacher with said glass shard in her pocket with the objective of getting Conan to trust her and making him think what she has in her pocket is actually a shogi piece?

But that Crimson Letter movie came out 2 months ago...and i believe since then we even had another file on them right after. No there has to be something further with Iori. Its too strange. Especially with the weird encounters with him and Conan and him being sneaky.

As far as Wakita is concerned, Gosho said that he's inspired from Ashita no Joe's Danpei Tange, the alcoholic coach of Joe. Now the only two persons(important characters) who seemed to be taught boxing or some kind of martial art are Amuro and Akai. So Wakita can very well be mentor/coach/NPB boss of Amuro or Akai senior. More likely to be Amuro's boss less likely to be Akai senior. The reasoning that he drugged Mary, mentor of Gin is just too premature and preemptive.

Also it will make Rumi a total Moron to glare at a suspicious person(kuroda). We never see Vermi-Araide glaring at Jodi. So did Vermouth become a Moron by chapter 989??

Iori is probably Asaka the lackey of Rum.

what you think iori's codename would be if you had to guess?

and i can say the same thing because we have had gin/vodka....chianti and korn....bourbon and vermouth. even though one of the latter pair(bourbon) is technically not in BO and undercover. but the point being that it seems that a member will sometimes work in a pair with a partner.

bourbon and vermouth is reconnaissance.
chianti and korn is basically the hit man and hit woman(not saying that other BO members cannot also be that on occasions)

and gin and vodka are the executives

Rum who i believe is Chikara is the strategy guy even further beyond his shogi talent . since he seems like a traditional japanese man i can see him being skilled in some other form of self defense. if he ends up being based on Moran from Sherlock Holmes then i see him also being fitting the "sportsman" role.

[dccd]

But Gosho doesn't even do the DB mysteries in canon anymore. So what is the purpose of having these silly encounters with Iori and this teenage girl? If he isn't having alot of filler now why are we having this? What do we have to gain from these encounters?

To promote a cartoon movie called Detective Conan: Crimson Love Letter in which these two characters appear in, probably.

big time #

The whole 3 chapters only were one big troll on the "where is Tsutomu" - theme.
The akai-eyes, the cap, friday the 13th and the "????" - introduction.
I mean even my wife thought its Daddy Akai at first.
Then add some more or less hidden Sherlock/Watson-reference and tada, the whole community is bonkers.

But wait one second and ask yourself: Would Gosho ever introduce Asaka or Rum with these kind of literal fireworks?
I hardly doubt it.

From now on he will have some 3 panel appearences in some side stories and wont have any connection to the rum-arc at all.

But still I might be wrong, so lets see..

[Kor]

But that Crimson Letter movie came out 2 months ago...and i believe since then we even had another file on them right after.

There was his introduction case from a few months ago, and then there was that kendo tournament case that was published right before the movie (with its last file published after the movie was already released). Beyond these two cases he hasn't appeared.

Its too strange. Especially with the weird encounters with him and Conan and him being sneaky.

What weird encounters? In his first case he was there to stalk Heiji for Momiji's sake, and in the second case he appeared in... they were there pretty much for the same reason (plus some celebration for Heiji's victory which didn't happen). In the second case he hasn't even came in sight with Conan or the rest of the cast. So far 100% of his encounters with Conan occurred because he and Momiji were after Heiji (and Conan just happened to be there too).

[Zerozaki4869]

As far as Wakita is concerned, Gosho said that he's inspired from Ashita no Joe's Danpei Tange, the alcoholic coach of Joe. Now the only two persons(important characters) who seemed to be taught boxing or some kind of martial art are Amuro and Akai. So Wakita can very well be mentor/coach/NPB boss of Amuro or Akai senior. More likely to be Amuro's boss less likely to be Akai senior. The reasoning that he drugged Mary, mentor of Gin is just too premature and preemptive.

Also it will make Rumi a total Moron to glare at a suspicious person(kuroda). We never see Vermi-Araide glaring at Jodi. So did Vermouth become a Moron by chapter 989??

Iori is probably Asaka the lackey of Rum.

what you think iori's codename would be if you had to guess?

and i can say the same thing because we have had gin/vodka....chianti and korn....bourbon and vermouth. even though one of the latter pair(bourbon) is technically not in BO and undercover. but the point being that it seems that a member will sometimes work in a pair with a partner.

bourbon and vermouth is reconnaissance.
chianti and korn is basically the hit man and hit woman(not saying that other BO members cannot also be that on occasions)

and gin and vodka are the executives

Rum who i believe is Chikara is the strategy guy even further beyond his shogi talent . since he seems like a traditional japanese man i can see him being skilled in some other form of self defense. if he ends up being based on Moran from Sherlock Holmes then i see him also being fitting the "sportsman" role.

If I were to guess Iori's code-name I would go with Irish/Welsh. As Iori seems to refer the Friday 13th superstition which is very "English". So his codename can be something related to UK. National drink of Northern Ireland/Welsh is Irish/Welsh whiskey. Gin and Scotch gets eliminated.

I think Iori's introduction with the localized name of Watson made his ties to BO glaring. BO loves their Sherlock and often compares themselves to the protagonists.(They even used the incomplete detective as one of their passwords.)

So, also the Watson was an assistant and friend of Holmes(not his second in command). So if Holmes is Rum, then Iori is Watson to him. The one who does the legwork for Holmes.

People say that Boss is Holmes which I disagree to, Holmes was the protagonist who did his stuff when he was contacted/called/hired but Boss does his stuff out of his own volition, more like the King/Queen of UK who often through law enforcement hires Holmes to solve critical problems.

I also think that Iori is Asaka.(In the anime Asaka was referred as He and the picture shows Asaka's index finger is shorter than ring finger, so highly likely that Asaka is a male.) It was their combined plan to knock off Amanda but Kohji's involvement screwed things up.

[MeiTanteixX]

But considering all the solutions in the past 10 years to the mysteries involved fairly simple answers, what makes this one in the need for such a needlessly over-complicated solution

My current prediction would be that Gosho is gonna tackle her development bit by bit(like he normally does). Leading up to the first climax, she is gonna be framed as "Asaka"/"Rum". After the reveal of Rum, leading up to the next climax, she's gonna frame herself as "Asaka"(who is already revealed to not be Rum at this point). An answer can feel overly complicated when you hear it, compared to when you experience it.

[alphajjc]

As far as Wakita is concerned, Gosho said that he's inspired from Ashita no Joe's Danpei Tange, the alcoholic coach of Joe. Now the only two persons(important characters) who seemed to be taught boxing or some kind of martial art are Amuro and Akai. So Wakita can very well be mentor/coach/NPB boss of Amuro or Akai senior. More likely to be Amuro's boss less likely to be Akai senior. The reasoning that he drugged Mary, mentor of Gin is just too premature and preemptive.

Also it will make Rumi a total Moron to glare at a suspicious person(kuroda). We never see Vermi-Araide glaring at Jodi. So did Vermouth become a Moron by chapter 989??

Iori is probably Asaka the lackey of Rum.

what you think iori's codename would be if you had to guess?

and i can say the same thing because we have had gin/vodka....chianti and korn....bourbon and vermouth. even though one of the latter pair(bourbon) is technically not in BO and undercover. but the point being that it seems that a member will sometimes work in a pair with a partner.

bourbon and vermouth is reconnaissance.
chianti and korn is basically the hit man and hit woman(not saying that other BO members cannot also be that on occasions)

and gin and vodka are the executives

Rum who i believe is Chikara is the strategy guy even further beyond his shogi talent . since he seems like a traditional japanese man i can see him being skilled in some other form of self defense. if he ends up being based on Moran from Sherlock Holmes then i see him also being fitting the "sportsman" role.

If I were to guess Iori's code-name I would go with Irish/Welsh. As Iori seems to refer the Friday 13th superstition which is very "English". So his codename can be something related to UK. National drink of Northern Ireland/Welsh is Irish/Welsh whiskey. Gin and Scotch gets eliminated.

I think Iori's introduction with the localized name of Watson made his ties to BO glaring. BO loves their Sherlock and often compares themselves to the protagonists.(They even used the incomplete detective as one of their passwords.)

So, also the Watson was an assistant and friend of Holmes(not his second in command). So if Holmes is Rum, then Iori is Watson to him. The one who does the legwork for Holmes.

People say that Boss is Holmes which I disagree to, Holmes was the protagonist who did his stuff when he was contacted/called/hired but Boss does his stuff out of his own volition, more like the King/Queen of UK who often through law enforcement hires Holmes to solve critical problems.

I also think that Iori is Asaka.(In the anime Asaka was referred as He and the picture shows Asaka's index finger is shorter than ring finger, so highly likely that Asaka is a male.) It was their combined plan to knock off Amanda but Kohji's involvement screwed things up.

wow this is real good. i mean i assume it wont be irish because of the name we had before already. i know the raven chaser movie wasnt canon but i still see that not being used anyway since we have the name already

welsh though damn that is interesting and i was running out of names to use and didnt even know about that one.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

But considering all the solutions in the past 10 years to the mysteries involved fairly simple answers, what makes this one in the need for such a needlessly over-complicated solution which involves Vermouth taking a glass shard from a crime scene 17 years ago (which Kouji as you suggested cut out in order to hint that a shogi piece is related even though he already had with him a shogi piece there according to you) and disguising as some random teacher with said glass shard in her pocket with the objective of getting Conan to trust her and making him think what she has in her pocket is actually a shogi piece?

TLDR: Metagame exists for mysteries. If you make DC theories, take a step back to make sure they are in character for Gosho before you get in too deep.

I've been out of town and not minding threads as much as I should, but I really think this point needs more focus. In a few months I will be a 10-year Detective Conan manga reader, and about twice that for reading golden-age-type mysteries in general. If I have any wisdom to impart, it is that you cannot "win" at mysteries consistently until you understand the styles of their individual authors. Every author has a different idea of what makes a mystery's presentation, characters, and solution good, reasonable, and proper. The most common trouble with you-can-solve-it mysteries is NOT that there aren't enough clues to reach the proper conclusion, it is difficulty catching what the "drift" of the flow of information means theory-wise and lack of counter-clues and shutdowns of alternate interpretations which prevent the reader from chasing plausible-but-wrong dead ends. This is why when most people start a new detective series by an author they have never read before, they often mess up at first until they get the hang of things or realize that author A is like author B and use that to their advantage.**

There is learned skill in knowing when you should ditch a technically plausible idea you like for being out of character with the author, and when you should leave an unfavorable idea on the backburner because it would be in character. With Gosho, overcomplicated ideas are a big NO. Solutions are pretty straightforward once you have cleared a twist or two.††

The clearest sign of a credible Detective Conan theory is one which has a strong "previous-case pedigree". This is so (for Gosho specifically) because he telegraphs arc mysteries with prior cases and several series of dropped hints. It boosts your theory's credibility immensely if you can easily enumerate how major aspects of your theory are similar to cases which have happened previously and draw certain elements from them. The flipside is that if you are having trouble finding previous examples to compare to, then maybe your theory isn't as strong as you think.

Anyone serious about their big ideas must eventually take a step back and verify they are Gosho-kosher. I think a solid understanding of Gosho's strategies and recurring tropes is so important for everyone to use as a base for theories, that when I first started the Chek's theories thread, I had it open with an enumeration of Gosho's "rules". While I eventually reordered everything more in line with reader interests, I worked on building a more complete successor to that list which exists as the DetectiveConanWorld Wiki's series of meta pages. I hope it proves useful for others.

[**] Quick example. Each author has categories of villains they find plausible and others they do not. For instance, Shin Kibayashi of Kindaichi and Detective Academy Q allow "artisans of crime" – masterminds who design and prepare complex crimes for others to execute while they observe. They are motivated primarily by opposition to the detective or aesthetic sensibilities. These setups often involve unusual or elaborately-designed custom crime scenes (often buildings) that would require unusual time and expense to prepare. These types of villains don't appear in Gosholand except as opposition to phantom thieves where their motivation is treasure defense and love for contraptions. Contrast Shin Kibayashi with Shu Takumi's Ace Attorney/Ghost Trick team which has relatively huge overlap in mystery style with Gosho. Like Gosho's, culprits are often motivated by simple greed, revenge, uncontrolled bouts of anger, and petty personal feelings. Tragic misunderstandings abound. Clue presentation and "clue rules" are very similar. It is extremely easy to move from one series to the other and start getting things right. The spiritual similarities between the two are so strong that the main reason I am convinced the Tsutomu is Kuroda idea is viable is because it could be like the solution of Justice for All's case 2 killer's backstory.

[††] Cases in point: Okiya was Akai after Akai faked his death. Amuro was PSB after being Bourbon. Kir was CIA as well as Black Organization and her younger brother Eisuke was looking for her. Vermouth used her disguise skills to be both Sharon and Chris because she doesn't age for some reason. Ideas like Akai is Okiya and Bourbon and manipulating the FBI behind the scenes, or Eisuke is a Black Organization agent impersonating Kir's younger brother to verify her loyalty were overcomplicated, and ultimately wrong.

Most of the time when I have gotten in a relatively protracted argument with anyone over arc-level mysteries (e.g. new major arc character X is Vermouth in disguise, boss is someone close to Conan, boss knows about Conan and is testing him, etc.), it is often because I am trying to find technical details to shoot down arguments that I would prefer to simply dismiss because they just are not Gosho's style.

[Misztina]

[††] Cases in point: Okiya was Akai after Akai faked his death. Amuro was PSB after being Bourbon. Kir was CIA as well as Black Organization and her younger brother Eisuke was looking for her. Vermouth used her disguise skills to be both Sharon and Chris because she doesn't age for some reason. Ideas like Akai is Okiya and Bourbon and manipulating the FBI behind the scenes, or Eisuke is a Black Organization agent impersonating Kir's younger brother to verify her loyalty were overcomplicated, and ultimately wrong.[/color]

Then it is simple, Tsutomu was Asaka, since both disappeared after the Haneda-case without a trace and it would make sense otherwise too (Tsutomu not being FBI, but Akai joining FBI, because they had info on Amanda and the case (or not)). And Asaka is not Rum, but someone with a crucial info on him, that is why the BO is interested in the name "Asaca".

I'm serious with this, not trolling.

[Kor]

I'm concerned people are bringing the butler guy into a Karasuma level of over-glorification. As in, a character that isn't really implied to be connected to the BO plot, yet people like some of the character's qualities (or at least the qualities people think that character has) and try to take said character out of context and connect it to the BO plot. (Only this time there don't appear to be misleading bad translations going on).

I think Iori's introduction with the localized name of Watson made his ties to BO glaring. BO loves their Sherlock and often compares themselves to the protagonists.(They even used the incomplete detective as one of their passwords.)

So, also the Watson was an assistant and friend of Holmes(not his second in command). So if Holmes is Rum, then Iori is Watson to him. The one who does the legwork for Holmes.

Isn't the manga being pretty obvious about what it was going for with this?

Spoiler:

There have been Holmes references in this series that have had no connection to the BO.

In general it feels like you're taking that guy extremely out of context in order to apply suspicions to him. Why would a BO guy (whether he's Rum or just a Rum underling) double as a butler who stalks teenagers?

[Zerozaki4869]

I'm concerned people are bringing the butler guy into a Karasuma level of over-glorification. As in, a character that isn't really implied to be connected to the BO plot, yet people like some of the character's qualities (or at least the qualities people think that character has) and try to take said character out of context and connect it to the BO plot. (Only this time there don't appear to be misleading bad translations going on).

I think Iori's introduction with the localized name of Watson made his ties to BO glaring. BO loves their Sherlock and often compares themselves to the protagonists.(They even used the incomplete detective as one of their passwords.)

So, also the Watson was an assistant and friend of Holmes(not his second in command). So if Holmes is Rum, then Iori is Watson to him. The one who does the legwork for Holmes.

Isn't the manga being pretty obvious about what it was going for with this?

Spoiler:

There have been Holmes references in this series that have had no connection to the BO.

In general it feels like you're taking that guy extremely out of context in order to apply suspicions to him. Why would a BO guy (whether he's Rum or just a Rum underling) double as a butler who stalks teenagers?

I'm not hyping the Iori train at all. But Iori has good skills when disguises are concerned. Iori has confidence in himself to take on an assailant even in the darkness.He went to guard the door after hearing the scream so that the assailant can't escape.
Just upon hearing the scream the first reaction which came to his mind was guarding the door, not going for the lights, not calling for help.
You can expect this reaction from trained agents who work in witness protection duties/ bodyguards etc. The picture of Asaka shows that Asaka had a longer ring finger thus improving the chance of Asaka being a man.
Now Iori with his flowing black hair can easily be thought as a woman if seen from the back.
We don't see movie characters making canon debut everyday, so the Canon needs the presence of Momiji and Iori.
Iori can very well be an undercover operative of the BO, currently keeping a tab on Ooka family for some vested interest of Rum/BO.
Now the nature of the need might be nebulous but still I'm inclined more to think Iori as Asaka and probably a Rum underling.