Is Sharon a BO member?

[sstimson]

I am sure that when Chris was young maybe around 7 or 8, she met Chris and noticed how Sharon and Chris got along.

There's no proof this occurred so it's irrelevant.

I disagree. I got this idea from Yukiko Comment. If I am right about how long they have been friends, then there is a very good chance Yukiko met a very young Chris. If that happened then for all the time Chris could not have always been Sharon. You have the idea that there was either never a Chris or never a Sharon. If Yukiko had never met a Young Chris and watched the Mother's proud look over her child, then why her comment?

Yukiko's comment in no way alludes to her actually having witnessed Sharon looking at Chris with a proud expression on her face.

Then answer the last part of the comment. Why did Yukiko say Sharon was Proud of Chris?

[Abs.]

Because Sharon supposedly raised Chris herself.  It's more an unfounded "I know you must be proud of her" that you hear people saying when they may not have even ever seen the child.  Yukiko even has a ã

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

One thing we are disagreeing on is when Sharon / Chris became the other. I think it did happen, but only for a very short time span. You seem to think that it happened from day one. Sharon is too famous for a daughter to come from nowhere. In order for a daughter to be thought of as real, the time progression must have happened. There is no way Sharon could pretend to be younger that 20 years old. Who knows when the Daughter Chris began her film career. But if it was younger then 20 then in those years it could have not been Sharon. So in order for the public to believe that Chris is Sharon daughter, there had to be a young Chris and that could not have been Sharon.

Never once has anyone (who isn't Sharon) ever mentioned Chris Vineyard at any point before she looked like an adult and was old enough to act so you cannot make up and use evidence that there was an actual little girl Chris running around before then.

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Bottom line. You cannot objectively prove that Chris Vineyard cannot be Sharon Vineyard in disguise. It is impossible because there isn't enough evidence in the manga to make a strong proof from. You will be forced to speculate on things, and that does not work because speculations are not a substitute for actual evidence. You can't rely on what Sharon says either because she has a motive to lie in order to make Chris appear to exist.
Furthermore, there is hard proof that they actually are the same person -the fingerprints- which I explained could not reasonably be faked above. Additionally there is soft proof in the form of Conan's analysis of the NY case and Vermouth's behavior later.

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[sstimson]

Then If I am required to REMOVE ALL SPECULATION for my theories then so ARE you! And you can start by removing from your speculation from here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3518.0 and here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3819.0. If you are not willing to do that then you need to allow my speculation and find another reason to object to my ideas.

but as for proving each was a star of film and so some of what sharon was telling Yukiko was true.

Spoiler:

Ran statement

Spoiler:

Sharon telling the truth about her daughter or Chris if you wish being a actress

Spoiler:

Other actress confirming. Really for whole page

Spoiler:

Proof of 20 years then Yukiko knew Sharon(part 1). next proof is Yukiko meeting Sharon early in her career

Spoiler:

Two points One learning KIDS dad tricks and the time of it. Two When the two met

Spoiler:

Chris shown as an actress

Spoiler:

These should prove three things

1) Yukiko knew Sharon while she was learning KID dad's tricks. She had not mastered then yet. So Yukiko knew the real sharon
2) Yukiko has known Sharon since high school ( early in her career ). At least 20 years
3) Both ladies should have been proven as actresses.

I have also just proven some of what Sharon told the Kids to be the truth. Although this is speculation,  two other things should also be known
1) Sharon was married. (She talks about a husband, Yukiko does not call say something like you never been married. An as long as Yukiko has known Sharon she would certainly know if that was true or not.
2)Chris is shown as 29. If the New York case was a year ago, She would have been 28. This is the point. As Yukiko has known Sharon at least 20 years, She should know if Sharon had a kid or not. As Yukiko say something about her ( Sharon ) being proud of her ( Chris ) , she might not know if Sharon is proud of her or not, but since Yukiko has known Sharon, she should know if Sharon had a daughter or not.

Can you agree with any of the above points? One of them being Yukiko Knew Sharon before Chris could have been 20.

[Kor]

Then If I am required to REMOVE ALL SPECULATION for my theories then so ARE you! And you can start by removing from your speculation from here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3518.0 and here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3819.0. If you are not willing to do that then you need to allow my speculation and find another reason to object to my ideas.

You are taking what Chekhov said out of context.

[sstimson]

One thing we are disagreeing on is when Sharon / Chris became the other. I think it did happen, but only for a very short time span. You seem to think that it happened from day one. Sharon is too famous for a daughter to come from nowhere. In order for a daughter to be thought of as real, the time progression must have happened. There is no way Sharon could pretend to be younger that 20 years old. Who knows when the Daughter Chris began her film career. But if it was younger then 20 then in those years it could have not been Sharon. So in order for the public to believe that Chris is Sharon daughter, there had to be a young Chris and that could not have been Sharon.

Never once has anyone (who isn't Sharon) ever mentioned Chris Vineyard at any point before she looked like an adult and was old enough to act so you cannot make up and use evidence that there was an actual little girl Chris running around before then.

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Bottom line. You cannot objectively prove that Chris Vineyard cannot be Sharon Vineyard in disguise. It is impossible because there isn't enough evidence in the manga to make a strong proof from. You will be forced to speculate on things, and that does not work because speculations are not a substitute for actual evidence. You can't rely on what Sharon says either because she has a motive to lie in order to make Chris appear to exist.
Furthermore, there is hard proof that they actually are the same person -the fingerprints- which I explained could not reasonably be faked above. Additionally there is soft proof in the form of Conan's analysis of the NY case and Vermouth's behavior later.

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See My post before this one.

that should prove (stating again)

1) Yukiko knew Sharon while she was learning KID dad's tricks. She had not mastered then yet. So Yukiko knew the real sharon
2) Yukiko has known Sharon since high school ( early in her career ). At least 20 years
3) Both ladies should have been proven as actresses.

I have also just proven some of what Sharon told the Kids to be the truth. Although this is speculation,  two other things should also be known
1) Sharon was married. (She talks about a husband, Yukiko does not say something like you never been married. And as long as Yukiko has known Sharon, she would certainly know if that was true or not.
2)Chris is shown as 29. If the New York case was a year ago, She would have been 28. This is the point. As Yukiko has known Sharon at least 20 years, She should know if Sharon had a kid or not. As Yukiko say something about her ( Sharon ) being proud of her ( Chris ) , she might not know if Sharon is proud of her or not, but since Yukiko has known Sharon, she should know if Sharon had a daughter or not.

[Mr_Useless]

2) Yukiko has known Sharon since high school ( early in her career ). At least 20 years

Do we have info on when they actually met? If Yukiko didn't see Sharon actually grow up we can even say Sharon herself was a disguise. She wouldn't need the advanced disguising techniques to cover wrinks, after all.

I have also just proven some of what Sharon told the Kids to be the truth. Although this is speculation,  two other things should also be known
1) Sharon was married. (She talks about a husband, Yukiko does not say something like you never been married. And as long as Yukiko has known Sharon, she would certainly know if that was true or not.
2)Chris is shown as 29. If the New York case was a year ago, She would have been 28. This is the point. As Yukiko has known Sharon at least 20 years, She should know if Sharon had a kid or not. As Yukiko say something about her ( Sharon ) being proud of her ( Chris ) , she might not know if Sharon is proud of her or not, but since Yukiko has known Sharon, she should know if Sharon had a daughter or not.

We don't really know how close the relationship was between Yukiko and Sharon. Yukiko maybe never had the chance to meet Sharon's family. Why not, maybe both her husband and her daughter died in the same situation and she took her daughter's place after that, alternating the two characters until she made Sharon die.

[sstimson]

2) Yukiko has known Sharon since high school ( early in her career ). At least 20 years

Do we have info on when they actually met? If Yukiko didn't see Sharon actually grow up we can even say Sharon herself was a disguise. She wouldn't need the advanced disguising techniques to cover wrinks, after all.

I have also just proven some of what Sharon told the Kids to be the truth. Although this is speculation,  two other things should also be known
1) Sharon was married. (She talks about a husband, Yukiko does not say something like you never been married. And as long as Yukiko has known Sharon, she would certainly know if that was true or not.
2)Chris is shown as 29. If the New York case was a year ago, She would have been 28. This is the point. As Yukiko has known Sharon at least 20 years, She should know if Sharon had a kid or not. As Yukiko say something about her ( Sharon ) being proud of her ( Chris ) , she might not know if Sharon is proud of her or not, but since Yukiko has known Sharon, she should know if Sharon had a daughter or not.

We don't really know how close the relationship was between Yukiko and Sharon. Yukiko maybe never had the chance to meet Sharon's family. Why not, maybe both her husband and her daughter died in the same situation and she took her daughter's place after that, alternating the two characters until she made Sharon die.

Look here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?p=145354#p145354 at the pictures and you will see where I what I said came from

[Mr_Useless]

2) Yukiko has known Sharon since high school ( early in her career ). At least 20 years

Do we have info on when they actually met? If Yukiko didn't see Sharon actually grow up we can even say Sharon herself was a disguise. She wouldn't need the advanced disguising techniques to cover wrinks, after all.

I have also just proven some of what Sharon told the Kids to be the truth. Although this is speculation,  two other things should also be known
1) Sharon was married. (She talks about a husband, Yukiko does not say something like you never been married. And as long as Yukiko has known Sharon, she would certainly know if that was true or not.
2)Chris is shown as 29. If the New York case was a year ago, She would have been 28. This is the point. As Yukiko has known Sharon at least 20 years, She should know if Sharon had a kid or not. As Yukiko say something about her ( Sharon ) being proud of her ( Chris ) , she might not know if Sharon is proud of her or not, but since Yukiko has known Sharon, she should know if Sharon had a daughter or not.

We don't really know how close the relationship was between Yukiko and Sharon. Yukiko maybe never had the chance to meet Sharon's family. Why not, maybe both her husband and her daughter died in the same situation and she took her daughter's place after that, alternating the two characters until she made Sharon die.

Look here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?p=145354#p145354 at the pictures and you will see where I what I said came from

Ok, so they met when they were fully grown up. The young Sharon looks exactly like Chris/Vermouth except for her hair.
And neither of those images - even thou i can't load the last one - tells much about their relationship. It doesn't say if they met in the States or in Japan either, it's possible Yukiko never met Chris.

Come to think of it, Sharon IS a BO member. She killed Jodie's father when she was young, that we know for sure. What is not clear - imo - is if Chris really existed, how and when did she die if she existed, and if Sharon is Vermouth's "original form" or yet another disguise. That unless there was some absurd mess with fingerprints.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Then If I am required to REMOVE ALL SPECULATION for my theories then so ARE you! And you can start by removing from your speculation from here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3518.0 and here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3819.0. If you are not willing to do that then you need to allow my speculation and find another reason to object to my ideas.

You are taking what Chekhov said out of context.

What Kor said. I speculate sure, but I don't draw conclusions off of speculations and treat them as known facts which is what you are doing. I try assign any of my theories the appropriate weight it deserves based on the quality of the evidence and logic to back it.

Spoiler:

Ran statement

Spoiler:

Sharon telling the truth about her daughter or Chris if you wish being a actress

Spoiler:

Other actress confirming. Really for whole page

Spoiler:

Proof of 20 years then Yukiko knew Sharon(part 1). next proof is Yukiko meeting Sharon early in her career

Spoiler:

Two points One learning KIDS dad tricks and the time of it. Two When the two met

Spoiler:

Chris shown as an actress

Spoiler:

These should prove three things

1) Yukiko knew Sharon while she was learning KID dad's tricks. She had not mastered then yet. So Yukiko knew the real sharon
2) Yukiko has known Sharon since high school ( early in her career ). At least 20 years
3) Both ladies should have been proven as actresses.

You have stepped in a good direction. Only one thing. You can't assume Sharon is being truthful about having a daughter. Based on the evidence you gave, we know Sharon at least pretends to have a daughter Chris and that Yukiko believes her; however, we don't what circumstances led Yukiko to believe Sharon had a daughter. What we do know is that, whatever those circumstances were, based on the way Yukiko reacts to Conan's deduction that Sharon and Chris are the same person, Yukiko doesn't think it is impossible for Sharon to have made up/replaced the daughter.

Spoiler: V42.10

[sstimson]

Then If I am required to REMOVE ALL SPECULATION for my theories then so ARE you! And you can start by removing from your speculation from here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3518.0 and here http://forums.dctp.ws/viewtopic.php?t=3819.0. If you are not willing to do that then you need to allow my speculation and find another reason to object to my ideas.

You are taking what Chekhov said out of context.

What Kor said. I speculate sure, but I don't draw conclusions off of speculations and treat them as known facts which is what you are doing. I try assign any of my theories the appropriate weight it deserves based on the quality of the evidence and logic to back it.

Spoiler:

Ran statement

Spoiler:

Sharon telling the truth about her daughter or Chris if you wish being a actress

Spoiler:

Other actress confirming. Really for whole page

Spoiler:

Proof of 20 years then Yukiko knew Sharon(part 1). next proof is Yukiko meeting Sharon early in her career

Spoiler:

Two points One learning KIDS dad tricks and the time of it. Two When the two met

Spoiler:

Chris shown as an actress

Spoiler:

These should prove three things

1) Yukiko knew Sharon while she was learning KID dad's tricks. She had not mastered then yet. So Yukiko knew the real sharon
2) Yukiko has known Sharon since high school ( early in her career ). At least 20 years
3) Both ladies should have been proven as actresses.

You have stepped in a good direction. Only one thing. You can't assume Sharon is being truthful about having a daughter. Based on the evidence you gave, we know Sharon at least pretends to have a daughter Chris and that Yukiko believes her; however, we don't what circumstances led Yukiko to believe Sharon had a daughter. What we do know is that, whatever those circumstances were, based on the way Yukiko reacts to Conan's deduction that Sharon and Chris are the same person, Yukiko doesn't think it is impossible for Sharon to have made up/replaced the daughter.

Spoiler: V42.10

A little more evidence. Remember about what I thought reporters might ask. Well look what I found

Spoiler:

look at what is the reporter is asking. Who is your father, not who is your mother? That suggest they might have proof that Chris is Sharon Daughter. Also the Question about not getting along with your mom. Again showing they think Chris is Sharon child. Also this

Showing that Yukiko was at Sharon's Funeral.

Spoiler:

But again at the above reporters Since there were no other report or news stories, they might ( note not must ) have found enough answers to show there was no story there or for sure there would have been one.

[Shuuichi Akai]

just a thought... Is it possible for Chris to be Sharon's clone?

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

just a thought... Is it possible for Chris to be Sharon's clone?

Nope, clones would have different fingerprints. It's one of those things that is determined by random chance.

[sstimson]

question on finger prints
if you keep like a mold on your fingers will there ever come a point where the mold is your fingerprints?

[mangaluva]

question on finger prints
if you keep like a mold on your fingers will there ever come a point where the mold is your fingerprints?

... Like if you make a mold of your fingerprints, will that mold have your fingerprints on it? Well, yeah...

Apparently, the acids in pineapple juice erase fingerprints. I remember reading about these guys who baffled police by never leaving fingerprints at the scene of the crime, even though cameras caught them without gloves. Turned out they had been stealing because they'd been laid off from their jobs at a factory where they'd spent twenty years packing tinned pineapple, and the prolonged exposure to the acids had completely erased their fingerprints.