The Truth About the Drug

[Wakarimashita]

I suppose they assumed it was fatal giving the effect of the drug on animals. Besides, perhaps did they use it X times in a short period of time (assuming X is a rather high number) resulting in X-1 confirmed/dead and 1 unconfirmed.

@terra : I already read that topic, but thanks. His theories are rather unusual, to say the least. =D

[mangaluva]

Humans and rats aren't that similar biologically, though. Surely you'd want some confirmed human tests before putting the drug into general use? It's not the kind of risk you want to take when silencing significant witnesses.

... totally not speaking from experience. Really.

[Wakarimashita]

They are quite similar genetically (which explains why they are used for tests) and particularly reliable.

In their Nature paper, the researchers reported that, at approximately 2.75 billion base pairs, the rat genome is smaller than the human genome, which is 2.9 billion base pairs, and slightly larger than mouse genome, which is 2.6 billion base pairs. However, they also found that the rat genome contains about the same number of genes as the human and mouse genomes. Furthermore, almost all human genes known to be associated with diseases have counterparts in the rat genome and appear highly conserved through mammalian evolution, confirming that the rat is an excellent model for many areas of medical research.

Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, while rats have 21 and mice have 20. However, the new analysis found chromosomes from all three organisms to be related to each other by about 280 large regions of sequence similarity - called 'syntenic blocks' - distributed in varying patterns across the organisms' chromosomes.

http://genome.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTD020720.html

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Humans and rats aren't that similar biologically, though. Surely you'd want some confirmed human tests before putting the drug into general use? It's not the kind of risk you want to take when silencing significant witnesses.

... totally not speaking from experience. Really.

Humans and rats are similar biologically in many aspects, but not all. You're right that when developing medicine for people, during the preclinical development stage, the candidate drug is tested on animals (usually two different species (ex. mice and pigs) because animal models aren't perfect models for humans) and a bunch of stuff I don't want to explain is characterized before researchers are allowed to test the drug on humans in clinical trials.
While I'm sure the BO doesn't follow proper clinical trial protocol, something like this was going to happen in the case of APTX4869 - Shiho was going to test it on Kiichirou Numabuchi (orders from above apparently), but he escaped and Haibara boycotted the drug development soon after that. (All this info is from V35-10)  It seems with Haibara out of the picture, the research on APTX4869 hit a roadblock and thus it was never properly tested, but someone gave the go ahead to use it anyway. This wound up not being a good idea since Conan exists and is angry.
In any case, I think it's likely that APTX is killing people; even without considering the list, Haibara mentioned something along the lines that of all the people who were given APTX, Shinichi was the only unconfirmed death, so that strongly implies there must be at least several people whom APTX was used on and died. I think the Org would have noticed if they were all becoming children.

All that said, I wonder if I have an entry in any intelligence agency's database for posting about stuff like this...

[Abs.]

All that said, I wonder if I have an entry in any intelligence agency's database for posting about stuff like this...

8)

[sstimson]

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/238/16/

This is where you got the idea of Pisco being told to use the drug ( and Yes we need this retranslated ) because when Gin says cover his mouth" does not make sense if you are about to kill that person. So how about this until I get a better translatation: This is talking about a whole different person. This person they want alive or Gin would have very clearly said kill him, therefore if these parts are right then they could have not been Talking about the DRUG unless they wanted another LIVE test case. So it should be a drug that puts a person to sleep so they can more easily capture them.

Spoiler:

Yes I agree that Nubabuchi according to hairaba only was to be a test subject. But notice her words. She did not say " I was to kill him with the DRUG" No she said " I was to test him with the DRUG" suggesting maybe she was not trying to kill him?

[nomemory]

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/238/16/

This is where you got the idea of Pisco being told to use the drug ( and Yes we need this retranslated ) because when Gin says cover his mouth" does not make sense if you are about to kill that person. So how about this until I get a better translatation: This is talking about a whole different person. This person they want alive or Gin would have very clearly said kill him, therefore if these parts are right then they could have not been Talking about the DRUG unless they wanted another LIVE test case. So it should be a drug that puts a person to sleep so they can more easily capture them.

Spoiler:

Yes I agree that Nubabuchi according to hairaba only was to be a test subject. But notice her words. She did not say " I was to kill him with the DRUG" No she said " I was to test him with the DRUG" suggesting maybe she was not trying to kill him?

But it sounds weird if she said "I was to kill him with the DRUG" since even if that was the purpose it was still a test, ergo saying testing. If you test a poison there is a lot more science involved than just "did he die or not?" A lot of testing has to be made, before and after the poisoning.

[Shuuichi Akai]

Humans and rats aren't that similar biologically, though. Surely you'd want some confirmed human tests before putting the drug into general use? It's not the kind of risk you want to take when silencing significant witnesses.

... totally not speaking from experience. Really.

It's true. I got nothing to do once when my hamsters gave birth. one was blind still after a month and so I used it as experiment. I gave it my cough medicine  which was a 250 gram antibiotic and it died...

[nomemory]

Humans and rats aren't that similar biologically, though. Surely you'd want some confirmed human tests before putting the drug into general use? It's not the kind of risk you want to take when silencing significant witnesses.

... totally not speaking from experience. Really.

It's true. I got nothing to do once when my hamsters gave birth. one was blind still after a month and so I used it as experiment. I gave it my cough medicine  which was a 250 gram antibiotic and it died...

D: They are in fact quite simular, medicine often works the same way, if you give the correct dose. Children have smaller doses that adults for a reason, the same goes with humans and rats. Some animals gets human medicine but used for a different illness. Once I was about to be prescribed the same medicine as my cat, but we did not have the same illness.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/238/16/

This is where you got the idea of Pisco being told to use the drug ( and Yes we need this retranslated ) because when Gin says cover his mouth" does not make sense if you are about to kill that person. So how about this until I get a better translatation: This is talking about a whole different person. This person they want alive or Gin would have very clearly said kill him, therefore if these parts are right then they could have not been Talking about the DRUG unless they wanted another LIVE test case. So it should be a drug that puts a person to sleep so they can more easily capture them.

Umm, you can't just decide what you think the translation should be. Can you understand Japanese? In any case there are already better translations out there so no guessing is required. DCTP anime's release is one and the chapter retranslation by Kentaru is the second. Anyway, Kentaru's retrans goes:
Gin bubble 1: Anyways, make him shut up before the cops get to him. That's the orders.
Gin bubble 2: Don't screw up, Pisco
Gin bubble 3: If there's any complication, you can use the experimental drug...

The experimental drug is APTX4869, by the way, and Conan figured that out without Haibara's input so what she says about it isn't a factor here.

[sstimson]

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/238/16/

This is where you got the idea of Pisco being told to use the drug ( and Yes we need this retranslated ) because when Gin says cover his mouth" does not make sense if you are about to kill that person. So how about this until I get a better translatation: This is talking about a whole different person. This person they want alive or Gin would have very clearly said kill him, therefore if these parts are right then they could have not been Talking about the DRUG unless they wanted another LIVE test case. So it should be a drug that puts a person to sleep so they can more easily capture them.

Umm, you can't just decide what you think the translation should be. Can you understand Japanese? In any case there are already better translations out there so no guessing is required. DCTP anime's release is one and the chapter retranslation by Kentaru is the second. Anyway, Kentaru's retrans goes:
Gin bubble 1: Anyways, make him shut up before the cops get to him. That's the orders.
Gin bubble 2: Don't screw up, Pisco
Gin bubble 3: If there's any complication, you can use the experimental drug...

The experimental drug is APTX4869, by the way, and Conan figured that out without Haibara's input so what she says about it isn't a factor here.

Ok using the translation you just gave: Note the words Gin uses

Gin bubble 1: Anyways, make him shut up before the cops get to him. That's the orders.
Gin bubble 2: Don't screw up, Pisco
Gin bubble 3: If there's any complication, you can use the experimental drug...

And again the above points are still valid even with the corrected translated.

The Key question is words used. Gin did not say kill him. He said shut him up. Why did he not say kill him if Gin wanted him killed? Could it be Gin wants him alive and in BO control. If so then again They want him ALIVE and all the above points still count.

[Kor]

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/238/16/

This is where you got the idea of Pisco being told to use the drug ( and Yes we need this retranslated ) because when Gin says cover his mouth" does not make sense if you are about to kill that person. So how about this until I get a better translatation: This is talking about a whole different person. This person they want alive or Gin would have very clearly said kill him, therefore if these parts are right then they could have not been Talking about the DRUG unless they wanted another LIVE test case. So it should be a drug that puts a person to sleep so they can more easily capture them.

Umm, you can't just decide what you think the translation should be. Can you understand Japanese? In any case there are already better translations out there so no guessing is required. DCTP anime's release is one and the chapter retranslation by Kentaru is the second. Anyway, Kentaru's retrans goes:
Gin bubble 1: Anyways, make him shut up before the cops get to him. That's the orders.
Gin bubble 2: Don't screw up, Pisco
Gin bubble 3: If there's any complication, you can use the experimental drug...

The experimental drug is APTX4869, by the way, and Conan figured that out without Haibara's input so what she says about it isn't a factor here.

Ok using the translation you just gave: Note the words Gin uses

Gin bubble 1: Anyways, make him shut up before the cops get to him. That's the orders.
Gin bubble 2: Don't screw up, Pisco
Gin bubble 3: If there's any complication, you can use the experimental drug...

And again the above points are still valid even with the corrected translated.

The Key question is words used. Gin did not say kill him. He said shut him up. Why did he not say kill him if Gin wanted him killed? Could it be Gin wants him alive and in BO control. If so then again They want him ALIVE and all the above points still count.

You need a lesson in "evil cliche criminal speech"
"kill him" is not nearly 'evil' enough as "shut him up" - the best way of shutting someone up is to kill him.
You're basically taking what Gin said way too literary.

[Dus]

I am going to start with a quote from The Body in the Library: A Miss Marple Mystery
By Agatha Christie

"The truth is, you see, that most people - and I don't exclude policeman - are far too trusting for this wicked world.  They believe what is told them. I never do.  I'm afraid I always like to prove a thing for myself."

Quoted for truth. Actually EVERYTHING about Shiho has to be questioned. Almost everything about her we know from herself. She also isn't to co-operative and clearly doesn't tell Conan everything she knows.

Let's assume, Sharon took the Aptx as well. She must have taken it a lot earlier than Shiho did. And it apparently granted her eternal youth, no known side effects. Research continued, resulting in the APTX4869 we all know and love. The fx it had on Shihos body were somewhat different, so this could be a deliberate development with this drug. Was this, what the BO was going for? Remember, they killed Akemi. They didn't kill her right after her initial betrayal, because they still needed Shiho. Didn't they need her anymore? So the ultimate goal of the APTX is to revert adults into children? Doesn't really make sense.
One hint we get towards the actual goal if the BO is that they`re trying to "revive the dead". Another one is that Conan is involved in a project that has been going on for at least half a century.

[mangaluva]

Spoiler:

http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/238/16/

This is where you got the idea of Pisco being told to use the drug ( and Yes we need this retranslated ) because when Gin says cover his mouth" does not make sense if you are about to kill that person. So how about this until I get a better translatation: This is talking about a whole different person. This person they want alive or Gin would have very clearly said kill him, therefore if these parts are right then they could have not been Talking about the DRUG unless they wanted another LIVE test case. So it should be a drug that puts a person to sleep so they can more easily capture them.

Umm, you can't just decide what you think the translation should be. Can you understand Japanese? In any case there are already better translations out there so no guessing is required. DCTP anime's release is one and the chapter retranslation by Kentaru is the second. Anyway, Kentaru's retrans goes:
Gin bubble 1: Anyways, make him shut up before the cops get to him. That's the orders.
Gin bubble 2: Don't screw up, Pisco
Gin bubble 3: If there's any complication, you can use the experimental drug...

The experimental drug is APTX4869, by the way, and Conan figured that out without Haibara's input so what she says about it isn't a factor here.

Ok using the translation you just gave: Note the words Gin uses

Gin bubble 1: Anyways, make him shut up before the cops get to him. That's the orders.
Gin bubble 2: Don't screw up, Pisco
Gin bubble 3: If there's any complication, you can use the experimental drug...

And again the above points are still valid even with the corrected translated.

The Key question is words used. Gin did not say kill him. He said shut him up. Why did he not say kill him if Gin wanted him killed? Could it be Gin wants him alive and in BO control. If so then again They want him ALIVE and all the above points still count.

"Shut his mouth" is gangster euphemism for "kill him". If you've ever seen gangster movies, you'll see that they rarely actually say "kill him". They'll say "take care of him" or "deal with him" or "silence him", but it always means kill. These guys always mean kill.

[Mr_Useless]

I'll add my part to this topic, i'll surely forget something as i am tired.

Ok, what we know about the Org's target is that they want to "raise the dead against the stream of time".
This either means creating some kind of philosopher's stone, or literally bringing dead people back to life. Maybe not in a Resident Evil fashion
There is the Vermouth "problem". We don't know how old she is. If she is Sharon, then it wouldn't be impossible to look younger (Chris is supposed to be 29 IIRC) via surgery and many beauty treatments. However, if she's even older (we know Sharon's parents both died in the same accident, so Vermouth might actually be Sharon's mother), that would definitely hint to the usage of the drug in some form. Also, being 70 would put her in the condition of being in the Org when their project started, if what Haibara said is true. If this was true, and she used a drug to get younger, then their aim would be to literally resuscitate people since they're research does not seem to be over.
What i find really hard to believe is that if this is true, and they found a lethal side effect of the drug, they'd just pass it to another lab to continue research on that side effect. I mean, if the original drug had the side effect of killing, the "new" aptx can very well have the side effect of de-aging people, and a person as careful as the BO Boss wouldn't take such a risk IMO just to make a poison.
Other hints, even thou not really reliable, are Haibara saying she didn't mean to create a poison, and Pisco, telling Ai her parents would be proud of her if they knew how far she'd gone with the APTX.

And then, what if the BO Boss is Sharon's mother: that would say a lot about she being her favourite. And why not, Sharon's mother might also be known as Hell Angel, aka Elena Miyano, who married Atsushi who already had a daughter (Akemi) and then killed him for some reason. That _might_ explain Vermouth's hatred towards Shiho, a sister she never wanted to have, add some psychopatic excuses and you have a motive :p It sure explains why Shiho would be surprised of the identity of the Boss. It doesn't really make sense when we think about the tapes or why they want her dead so much, but my creativity has hit the limiter

Ok now feel free to point at me and laugh, i'll go to bed :-)