episode 345 question

[TheBlind]

i have another question, how on earth did heji deduce all that ?

in the episode, he just told how the trick was done, but he didn't tell how he found out the truth.
can someone explains that too 

By trick, do you mean the murder that took place on the ship?
It was a tag team between Heiji & Shinichi which answers why they were able to figure it out so quickly.

I mean the trick used by the murderer, i mean, there is no logic involved in this case 

It's a tag team between Heiji & Shinichi. That's all the logic Gosho thought he needed.

[sstimson]

lol, but don't you agree? the case illogical 

no not really. I though they explained it very well.

Why would a want to be actor, who must be in character all the time, order such a drink?

The answer is he would not. That would be strange. So either he is not who he is suppose to be ( different mask over head ) or he was order to do so. In this case it was both. The mummy, being staff, was ordered to drink that drink and so he did. One must believe that the host of this party would use costumes making it harder to guess the human. So when the wolfman ( as the mummy was seen to be at the time ) ordered a silver bullet, All around Detectives would have known that something was wrong. That would be too easy to guess the human then.

[sstimson]

lol, but don't you agree? the case illogical 

no not really. I though they explained it very well.

Why would a want to be actor, who must be in character all the time, order such a drink?

The answer is he would not. That would be strange. So either he is not who he is suppose to be ( different mask over head ) or he was order to do so. In this case it was both. The mummy, being staff, was ordered to drink that drink and so he did. One must believe that the host of this party would use costumes making it harder to guess the human. So when the wolfman ( as the mummy was seen to be at the time ) ordered a silver bullet, All around Detectives would have known that something was wrong. That would be too easy to guess the human then.

lol, but don't you agree? the case illogical 

no not really. I though they explained it very well.

Why would a want to be actor, who must be in character all the time, order such a drink?

The answer is he would not. That would be strange. So either he is not who he is suppose to be ( different mask over head ) or he was order to do so. In this case it was both. The mummy, being staff, was ordered to drink that drink and so he did. One must believe that the host of this party would use costumes making it harder to guess the human. So when the wolfman ( as the mummy was seen to be at the time ) ordered a silver bullet, All around Detectives would have known that something was wrong. That would be too easy to guess the human then.

but still, there was no real logic.

Sorry but you need to be clearer. I just showed how using logical deduction, one could easily see that the wolfman was the Villain.

[Kor]

Silver bullets kill werewolves. If the guy who was the real werewolf wanted to be in character, he wouldn't have drank that.

[sstimson]

just because he drank "silver bullet" does not mean he's the culprit

Let me try to help you. He claims to drank the " Silver Bullet ". It was really the mummy who did. He lied when he said he did.

As the detectives said" Drinking a 'Silver Bullet" by a monster is unthinkable". Why would a creature of evil drink knowingly, drink something that was poisonous to evil?

They would not. The case here is really to prove the wolfman is lying. This was does by learning the mummy was the human. This was also does by knowing how the host meant to give clues to who was human. The host told the mummy to drink the 'Silver Bullet"  Logically the only monster who could drink a "Silver Bullet' would be the human. As it was proven that the mummy was the human by the name on his forehead, the claim by the wolfman that he drank it must be false. So his statement of always having his head was proven to be false. He was using the mummy as an alibi. But that alibi was broken and that proved he was the villain. 

[sstimson]

now im beginning to understand, but ow did heji know that the mummy is the human?

This Time a spoiler tag is needed

Spoiler:

Remember when he was in the crow nest? He found a roster or cock up there. He said he believed the host would have held the cock by the tail giving the clue "cocktail' A cocktail is a mixed drink.So some drink would show which one was the human. Conan, and Mouri were next to the mummy when he get the "silver bullet' Mouri ask the barkeep for one in fact. There is no question of the drinker of the silver bullet.
The next step is to realize that only the human would drink that drink. The mummy said he was told by the host to drink that drink. The wolfman claimed to be the one. Also more proof about who was who can be taken by Frankstine. He said the mummy went into a stall and out came the wolfman. Frank figured out the mummy was staff and was trying to find a good way to say put his best foot forward.
You had two claimants for the Silver Bullet (the human drink) One of these was the wolfman and one was the mummy. One of those two must be the human. It is hard to think of a wolfman drinking a killer bullet so it must be the mummy and this was proven by the word "Human" written on the mummy forehead under his bandages 

[sstimson]

Question Look at the following Pictures

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

According to you: Conan allready has is mom in place at him place. But the above pictures clearly show he know something is wrong but not what. This happened after he got the note, and while Gin and Volka head to the Party. The next frame would be

Spoiler:

That Picture is where I got my ideas. One Panel shows Conan being shot.( by his mom with a water gun ). If he knew she was there, why would he have allowed himself to be shot?

Yukiko agreeing to Conan's request does not equal her being in the house and this is where you are confused. I have never said or even alluded that Conan knew Yukiko was in the house, there is no evidence to support that. But what most likely happened(and the evidence supports) is that Conan expected Yukiko to be in the house by nightfall or a later time, which is why he grew suspicious when the house had signs of use but it appearance that no one was inside. Again, I believe this fits perfectly with everything and makes more sense than Yukiko magically appearing at the house when the plot needed her.

Why do you say that? What evidence shows Conan expecting her? The Above Picture clearly show he does not know Who is in his house. If he was expecting her, when again why he is worried about how many bad guys he could face. And he is thinking it, not saying it. He would say it out loud if he though his Mom was or could be near as to play her game but a different way.

As for the time Heiji got the message could have been the next day. Conan could have sent it that night and Heiji found it the next Day.

Why come up with that reason when the original reason fits better and makes more sense?

• Heiji receives the message after school the day before(fits with the time Conan had his cellphone out)
• Heiji agrees, heads over the next morning which fits with Haibara still being asleep

(likely drugged)

• Gives enough time for him and Conan to talk, get ready for the diguise(6 hrs for Heiji's), and for him to be at the pier by sundown

No sign of a phone chat and only sign of One message being sent. Your idea requires more then that. Again where is your evidence?

Your scenario can't explain all that and has no evidence to back it up(unless you are holding it from dramatic effect  )

More evidence: Heiji was surpised to find out that Conan's mom was at his house. According to your idea heiji should have not only known that  Conan's Mom was there, but was a great disguse artist. If he was going there to be disguised then he would have known both facts.

You are confusing things again. You are assuming just because Conan texted Heiji for help, he told him the whole plan via text when Heiji himself shows that this was not the case. Conan just asked Heiji if he could help him by appearing as him somewhere. Heiji would have to be a mind reader to know that it somehow involved Yukiko or that she was a great disguise artist just from that request which fits with him being surprised when he got there.

Let me be more clear. I am sure that Conan texted Heiji with at least these facts:He got a letter from Belmount using both of his names meaning someone in BO knew about him. He ask if Heiji could show up at the ship as him, and if so to meet his mom. I think Heiji was suprised to learn that Conan Mom was at the house and could make him up. He does not neccessary mean he learned this at the house, though he likely learned about her skills of disguise at Kudo's House. As it sounds you disagree, please show your evidence.

Heiji had to either know the true plan or at least suspect it. After all he forced the door to make sure Haibara could get out.

I agree with you that Heiji suspected Conan was up to something greater than he lead on about(remeber Conan only told him the basics) but I'm on the side that Heiji never did anything to the door.

Here a raw scan of the relevant page. I have most of the raw tankobon scans, so I can check specific things with the help of a dictionary. Someone who can actually follow the grammar (and the Kansai-ben) should look at this one, though.

Thanks maybe someone who can handle the perfect Japanese(Heiji vs Jodie ) can clear up what Heiji actually meant and more importantly if the anime stayed loyal in regards to this scene.

[TheBlind]

Why do you say that? What evidence shows Conan expecting her? The Above Picture clearly show he does not know Who is in his house. If he was expecting her, when again why he is worried about how many bad guys he could face. And he is thinking it, not saying it. He would say it out loud if he though his Mom was or could be near as to play her game but a different way.

What reason does Conan have to check his house at nightfall if he's not expecting someone to be in it?
After finding the listening devices he most likely sweep it which is why he was surprised that meter rating where different when he came back a second time.
Reason he's worried is because the house has the presence of no one being home but has been used. Conan didn't expect his mom to act childish one again, especially when he's in such a serious situation(in Yukiko's defense, Conan probably didn't tell her all the details).

What you are arguing is that Yukiko showed up randomly and Conan came up with a complex plan on that rare occurrence. What was Conan's initial plan then?

Let me be more clear. I am sure that Conan texted Heiji with at least these facts:He got a letter from Belmount using both of his names meaning someone in BO knew about him. He ask if Heiji could show up at the ship as him, and if so to meet his mom. I think Heiji was suprised to learn that Conan Mom was at the house and could make him up. He does not neccessary mean he learned this at the house, though he likely learned about her skills of disguise at Kudo's House. As it sounds you disagree, please show your evidence.

..That makes no sense. Why would Conan text Heiji to meet his mom when he could easily text "If you can help me come by Agasa's house" and it what he probably did. If he did what you stated, Heiji would of stated he knew about Kudo's mom from the message not when he got to the house in the flashback. Also you are ignoring the time line I provided for you which makes you theory highly unlikely. If Conan sent the text after he "randomly" meet Yukiko and Heiji received it "next morning" to account for his School Uniform, that turns the whole plan into a hail mary..and according to you all this started with Yukiko randomly being in the house. I think this conversation would move forward if you posted a detail overview of your scenario because you have yet to do that. This way I can figure out what you are really trying to say because of now I don't think your scenario makes sense(not saying mines ultimately right).

[Abs.]

TheBlind, your arguments usually make sense.

But what's really tripping us up is this part:

Conan gets the "OK" in hearts on his cell phone.  Then, he looks at his house, and thinks to himself, "The remaining question is..."

The next scene with Conan shown is him going to his house and trying to figure out who's been living there - obviously because he doesn't know.

It would follow that the timeline is thus: he gets the "OK" in hearts, then he goes to find out who the hell's been living at his house.

It's entirely possible that Conan had planned to do everything the same way, without his mother's help - that would be Heiji would be Kabuki Kudou again (but without the Osaka accent), and Conan would be the reverse of what they did to have Haibara dress as Conan to fool Ran in the Desperate Revival arc.  But, with the added strength of his mother's disguise skills, the plan just got that much better.

There is room in the way things played out to wonder if, had he gone without his mother's disguise skills (and let's say Jodie never showed up and Vermouth ended up being the one picking him=Haibara up) his switcharoo would have been seen through right away.  But in the way things actually worked out, it wouldn't have mattered very much (except for us, the audience, being fooled) if it was a rough disguise or Yukiko's disguise: 1) The people on the boat never got too close of a look at Kudou, 2) Vermouth never got a close, unobstructed view of Haibara before Conan kicked the ball out the window at her.  Add in the voice changers/microphones, and the original plan was pretty good already.

I'm still wondering, of course, about Heiji sending the "OK" in hearts, but Heiji has pulled that kind of joke on Kudou in the past (I think someone already mentioned it earlier in the thread.)

[TheBlind]

But what's really tripping us up is this part:

Conan gets the "OK" in hearts on his cell phone.  Then, he looks at his house, and thinks to himself, "The remaining question is..."

The next scene with Conan shown is him going to his house and trying to figure out who's been living there - obviously because he doesn't know.

It would follow that the timeline is thus: he gets the "OK" in hearts, then he goes to find out who the hell's been living at his house.

Conan looks at his house because he expects his mom to be in it soon(..clearly open for interpretation it seems) and his line is referring to Jodie not the house. He wouldn't know anything is wrong from that distance to be suspicious of it,especially with a smile. Also, you a forgetting that there is a time gap when Conan goes to look at house and when he glanced at it. When he looked at the house from Agasa's window, it looked to be nearing sundown but when he actually goes to check the house it's nightfall. Why would he wait that long if he was initially suspicious of the house near sundown and why would he be so shocked that someone could be in it(other than his mom) if he was suspicious of it by sundown?

As for the hearts I think kirite was joking. Heiji played a similar joke, but it was a verbal one. Heiji called Kudo over to a case but when Conan asked why he called him, Heiji replied something like "What there's no case, I just missed you."

TheBlind, your arguments usually make sense.

No, you just haven't been here long enough.  ;D

[Abs.]

But what's really tripping us up is this part:

Conan gets the "OK" in hearts on his cell phone.  Then, he looks at his house, and thinks to himself, "The remaining question is..."

The next scene with Conan shown is him going to his house and trying to figure out who's been living there - obviously because he doesn't know.

It would follow that the timeline is thus: he gets the "OK" in hearts, then he goes to find out who the hell's been living at his house.

Conan looks at his house because he expects his mom to be in it soon(..clearly open for interpretation it seems) and his line is referring to Jodie not the house. He wouldn't know anything is wrong from that distance to be suspicious of it,especially with a smile. Also, you a forgetting that there is a time gap when Conan goes to look at house and when he glanced at it. When he looked at the house from Agasa's window, it looked to be nearing sundown but when he actually goes to check the house it's nightfall. Why would he wait that long if he was initially suspicious of the house near sundown and why would he be so shocked that someone could be in it(other than his mom) if he was suspicious of it by sundown?

Remember?  He is already suspicious of his house because he asks Ran about it the night before.  The next day, when he goes to his house to get the invitation from the mailbox, he checked the meters.

I don't see the smile you are referring to.

Anyhow, yes time passes (a little bit of time - maybe enough to form the preliminary plan?) but time needs to pass, because he wants to be able to compare the meter readings.

When he goes into the house, his thinking reveals that he is expecting that whoever is living there may be dangerous (prepares the power kick shoes and tranq watch), BUT he does allow for another possibility (here, we can assume that he won't be completely surprised if it does turn out to be that his mom changed her mind and didn't fly out the night they almost saw the Gomera screening - but he doesn't KNOW that is the case.)

TheBlind, your arguments usually make sense.

No, you just haven't been here long enough.  ;D

Maybe I should rephrase that to, "TheBlind, most of your recent arguments have made sense" ?

[TheBlind]

Remember?  He is already suspicious of his house because he asks Ran about it the night before.  The next day, when he goes to his house to get the invitation from the mailbox, he checked the meters.

I don't see the smile you are referring to.

Anyhow, yes time passes (a little bit of time - maybe enough to form the preliminary plan?) but time needs to pass, because he wants to be able to compare the meter readings.

When he goes into the house, his thinking reveals that he is expecting that whoever is living there may be dangerous (prepares the power kick shoes and tranq watch), BUT he does allow for another possibility (here, we can assume that he won't be completely surprised if it does turn out to be that his mom changed her mind and didn't fly out the night they almost saw the Gomera screening - but he doesn't KNOW that is the case.)

This is a good point. I never thought of that, good catch. With the size of Conan's house, I guess it would be possible for Yukiko to hide in it for a short period of time..but kinda makes her even look more childish.

[Abs.]

With the size of Conan's house, I guess it would be possible for Yukiko to hide in it for a short period of time..but kinda makes her even look more childish.

Yukiko is AWESOME.  I'm not sure she'd be awesome to have as a mom though... but if I were in Haibara's position, to be able to laugh at Conan and his interactions with his mom, I'd think it would be HILARIOUS.