New Member Here - A few theories

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Abs.
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by Abs. »

soratothamax wrote: Edit: based on the manga volume you showed me above about Conan realizing Okiya is spying, obviously Conan didn't trust him, otherwise he wouldn't have been snooping on his own property TRYING to find something on Okiya, especially if he knew Okiya was Akai, there would be no suspicion. Why would Conan have suspected something enough to examne the changes Okiya made to the house? If it was Akai, Conan wouldn't even have examined the house, or tried to see if he was spying.
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Which leads me to believe that Conan allowed Okiya to stay there for another reason...possibly to get some more evidence about the BO?
Please try to know what you are talking about before jumping off bridges.

The manga page you are referencing happened so much earlier than Okiya appearing that it's not even in the same ballpark.  The page is from when Conan and Vermouth had their showdown, and when Conan realized it was his own MOTHER that was in the house.

The current argument is:
Why would Conan, ALREADY KNOWING his house is the perfect place to spy on himself and Haibara from, let someone he doesn't trust stay there?
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by soratothamax »

Please try to know what you are talking about before jumping off bridges.

The manga page you are referencing happened so much earlier than Okiya appearing that it's not even in the same ballpark.  The page is from when Conan and Vermouth had their showdown, and when Conan realized it was his own MOTHER that was in the house.

The current argument is:
Why would Conan, ALREADY KNOWING his house is the perfect place to spy on himself and Haibara from, let someone he doesn't trust stay there?
Well, I based the reference on the argument it was used against me for by Checkov, I was wondering why it was used...

I didn't understand the reference initially...now I do.
It wasn't Conan who rejected Okiya's request to stay at Agasa's; Ai was the one who indicated it was bad. Furthermore, Conan chose to place Okiya in the closest place to Ai that he could: Shinichi's house. Conan had said earlier that it would be the best location to spy on him and Ai from. Unless Conan doesn't trust Haibara at all, it doesn't make sense that Conan would completely ignore her reaction.
(click to show/hide)
I didn't understand the reference to this argument at all. Now I think I do and made the appropriate edit. I didn't know about that reference.

But I have a lot more arguments than this one. I mean if you should really read the rest before you claim I don't know what I'm talking about entirely. I have other points too. I think that's the only thing not to think about in the whole argument.

@ Checkov Was the reference above to say that Conan wouldn't ignore Ai? I'm assuming that's what that reference meant....
Last edited by soratothamax on March 25th, 2010, 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by PokerFace312 »

Now that I'm manged to piece myself back together I'll explain my completely-out-there-and-probably-wrong theory.

What I think is that Okiya is in fact Akai, but that, although he suspects it, Conan isn't sure. As for who Scar Akai is, I think this is Akai's brother (who is also Bourbon)!
My reasoning? I believe that during that scene during the Rena Mizunashi case (when Akai and Conan were talking, but their actual conversation was never shown) Akai and Conan came up with a plan that they later told Rena about which would fake Akai's death. Evidence I have that shows that it may not have been Akai who got blown up is:
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/609/04/
Notice that on this page when Akai is shot, his head is laying sideways on the roof of the car and there is blood on the right side of his mouth. However, on this page:
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/609/05/
after Rena looks away for a moment, his face is facing strait up, his tuque seems lower, and the blood is gone. Also, at the corners of his mouth there are wrinkles that were never there before. Suspicious. Also note that after the second page I linked, you never see the body's face, and in the second link, by looking at the lines on the seat his boy's on you can see that it seems to have moved a bit.

Back to the conversation at the hospital: I think that Akai wasn't sure of the disguise and alias he was going to use, so he told Conan that he would stay at the house that Okiya was in during his first appearance that burnt down. Evidence of this is where Conan seemed to recognize the address: http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/622/08/

My idea is that Conan (having never been informed about Akai's supposed death) thought that Okiya was Akai during Okiya's initial appearance because of:
A. Haibara's reaction to Okiya resembled the one she had to Akai during James' first appearance.
B. The similarities between Okiya and Akai's build, as opposed to the other two suspects.
C. The address.
This is why Conan let Okiya stay in his house, but the reason he didn't tell Haibara and Agasa was because he wasn't 100% sure, as well as he didn't want them to worry more or whatever.
Okiya being Akai would also explain Haibara's reaction to Okiya in the Ikkaku rock case. She had been told about Akai before hand, and possibly shown a picture (which would explain her saying "Did you see his face?!" when she saw Akai in James' first appearance) from Akemi, which would explain how she seemed to recognize him:
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/666/16/

Moving on to Scar Akai being Akai's brother aswell as Bourbon (This is the less plausible part of my theory):
Bourbon seems to believe that he's the only one who can kill Akai. If Bourbon was actually Akai's brother, it would make sense that they would know each other better than others would. This would also explain why Scar Akai looks so much like the real Akai if they turned out to be twins.
During the Mall Bombing case was the first time that Conan knew about Scar Akai. I think that Conan was still skeptical about whether or not Okiya was Akai. This case was the first time that Conan found out about Scar Akai, so when this happened he wondered if he couldn't been mistaken about Okiya's identity, and that Scar Akai was the real Akai. This would explain why Conan tried so hard to stop Scar Akai from being killed. If this is true, then the explanation to reaction here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/704/16/
could be that he's starting to wonder if Okiya was actually Bourbon and that he was trying to find and eliminate Akai. However, what I think Okiya might have been saying is that he thought that when he saw Scar Akai in the news feed for the Bank Robbery case, he recognized it as his brother. But during this case, he saw Scar Akai smile at Chianti who was pointing a rifle at him (http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/704/12/) as realized that Scar Akai was a member of the Organization (aka Bourbon).
Scar Akai being Bourbon would also explain what Gin says here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/704/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/704/14/

So that's my theory! Like I said, it's probably way off, but hey, only Gosho knows what's to come, and with him holding the reigns anythings possible!
Last edited by Anonymous on March 25th, 2010, 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

soratothamax wrote: See, I took that as interfering. Conan stepped in and said "Stay at Shinichi's house". To me, that says that Conan decided for Okiya that it wasn't best for Okiya to stay in Agasa's house based on Ai's comfort-ability. And telling Okiya to stay at his house it could have been to ward off suspicion. If anyone rejected Okiya from staying anywhere near Ai, and Conan had never spoken up about Shinichi's house, the seemingly already suspecting Okiya would really suspect something was going on. If anyone allowed him to stay at Agasa's house, it would be uncomfortable for Ai. So Conan made it less suspicious by allowing Okiya to stay at his house, while still making sure Okiya is not directly in the presence of Ai by staying with her.
Just to be clear here, Okiya only popped the question of whether he could stay at Agasa's after he arrived and talked with Agasa a bit. Before then, Okiya's stated intention was to meet the professor. If Conan wanted to prevent Okiya from staying at Agasa's, he would have had to speak up after Okiya asked if staying with Agasa would be OK. Conan didn't. Additionally, Agasa only asked if Ai had a problem with it, which would have made it awkward for Conan to chime in.
Also there is no reason for Okiya, regardless of his identity, to suspect there is something going on just because he was refused a temporary stay at a house. Would you let some random person you met five minutes ago who walked in off the street stay at your place suddenly? On the flip side, if a complete stranger you just met five minutes ago declined your request to temporarily stay at their house would you suspect them of suspicious activity? The real suspicious one in this picture is Conan - a little boy suddenly decides to allow a random stranger to stay at a house belonging to an unrelated teenage friend without consulting him beforehand.
soratothamax wrote: Akai didn't talk in his introduction. He was silent and mysterious so we didn't know who he was. At first he was an enigmatic figure. All the other characters talked because they were all different characters. Vermouth hardly talked as Araide-sensei. But as herself she did. They could've made Okiya an enigmatic figure...they're doing it with Scar Akai....
First off, !Araide spoke frequently. Please refer to any of the cases she appears in as proof. Although Akai was mostly quiet to begin with, he spoke after the bus jack case was over, and he gradually gained more of a speaking role after that. So far no character has been completely silent. Even scar Akai has spoken - to a man to hand back his phone. Also scar Akai is deliberately playing the mute act in front of the FBI (and the readers). Unless Gosho wanted to make Okiya mute as well, speaking was unavoidable given his introduction - as a case suspect.
soratothamax wrote:If there is a limited pool, why get a totally different actor for Okiya?
As I said above twice already, it would be too obvious a hint to use the same voice actors. The point I was making above was because they have to use different voice actors, it doesn't matter how different they sound because even when one voice actor is deliberately trying to copy another voice actor, as in Kogoro's case, they still don't match. Therefore you can't use as evidence the difference in their voices in the anime. Let's not have a repeat of the hair dye thing please...
soratothamax wrote: Why would Akai need to spy? If Akai was in the organization, he more than likely also knew about the drug. He was also an executive member,
No, he was a low ranking codenamed member. He hadn't even met Gin yet. Kir at this point is higher ranking than Akai was.
soratothamax wrote: And Okiya asked to stay with Ai, not Conan. So obviously Okiya's target is Ai. If he wanted to uncover Conan's identity, wouldn't he stay near Conan, and wouldn't he have asked to stay at Shinichi's house first? But he asked to stay with Ai, so obviously he's not out to uncover Conan's identity. This person seems to not know who Ai is, and is out to find out, that is why he is spying.
You are making the assumption that Okiya knows Shinichi and Conan are definitely connected. He may not. If anything it's the opposite of what you say; Okiya has definitely expressed interest in Conan's identity but hasn't clearly so far for Ai's identity. We know from what he said to Ran that he looked around Shinichi's house for traces of the landlord: clothes, journals, and albums, but found nothing personally identifying. (chap 639 pg. 5) Also Conan specifically warned Ran not to talk about Shinichi to Okiya. Okiya's interactions with Ai have been relatively normal. Okiya did visit Agasa's during the haunted warehouse case, but Ai was out at the time. Catching her at Ikkaku rock was nothing special either. The photo he took had Conan as well as Ai in it, so it isn't clear who is the target -if anyone.
soratothamax wrote: When it came to Akai, she knows he's not a bad guy anymore....but does she still sense the BO around him? I don't technically remember Ai actually ever sensing a BO presence from Akai. Even in the Bus Hijacking case, it was Vermouth she sensed who was disguised as Araide-sensei not Akai. Also, during the film episode when she was being followed by Akai she didn't sense him.
Ai doesn't know Akai as Akai. She only knows him as Moroboshi Dai who was Rye. Remember she tells Conan she wants to meet Akai before the Shiranpuri case in R.vs.B. She did sense Akai when he was around.
Spoiler:
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Also, it Akai instructed two other people to watch the DB during the "death in the dark" case. They probably passed the photo on to him - he probably didn't take it himself because he wanted to keep his distance.
soratothamax wrote: @ Chekhov Was the reference above to say that Conan wouldn't ignore Ai? I'm assuming that's what that reference meant....
No, the reference was to point out that Conan said his house would be the best place to spy on. The Conan not ignoring Ai bit was a common sense argument.
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by Abs. »

ShinRanFTW wrote: During the Mall Bombing case was the first time that Conan knew about Scar Akai. I think that Conan was still skeptical about whether or not Okiya was Akai. This case was the first time that Conan found out about Scar Akai, so when this happened he wondered if he couldn't been mistaken about Okiya's identity, and that Scar Akai was the real Akai. This would explain why Conan tried so hard to stop Scar Akai from being killed. If this is true, then the explanation to reaction here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/704/16/
could be that he's starting to wonder if Okiya was actually Bourbon and that he was trying to find and eliminate Akai.
This made me think!  What if Conan and Akai had planned to fake Akai's death as Chekhov had outlined, but BOURBON SAW THROUGH IT AND GOT TO AKAI at the little boy's house before Conan met "Okiya"?  Bourbon, assuming that he'd "taken care" of Akai, then took on the persona of "Akai pretending to be dead" to try to figure out what the purpose was behind such a ruse.

We apply all the "head trauma" theories to explain why Scar Akai was right handed and mute, then invoke "healing/recovery of memories" to explain why he was able to procure a gun and fire it, and regain his speech.

Please, Chekhov, tear this to shreds as you see fit.  ;D
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: No, he was a low ranking codenamed member. He hadn't even met Gin yet. Kir at this point is higher ranking than Akai was.
Wait what?
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by Tanner-kun »

Abs. wrote: This made me think!  What if Conan and Akai had planned to fake Akai's death as Chekhov had outlined, but BOURBON SAW THROUGH IT AND GOT TO AKAI at the little boy's house before Conan met "Okiya"?  Bourbon, assuming that he'd "taken care" of Akai, then took on the persona of "Akai pretending to be dead" to try to figure out what the purpose was behind such a ruse.

We apply all the "head trauma" theories to explain why Scar Akai was right handed and mute, then invoke "healing/recovery of memories" to explain why he was able to procure a gun and fire it, and regain his speech.
But when conan Saw akai it wasn't a "great it worked" expression but a "hes still alive?!?" expression.

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I also just noticed that scar akia and Okiya are two differnt people because of this:

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So it being impossible to be two places at once their not the same.
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by Abs. »

Xcommando wrote:
Abs. wrote: This made me think!  What if Conan and Akai had planned to fake Akai's death as Chekhov had outlined, but BOURBON SAW THROUGH IT AND GOT TO AKAI at the little boy's house before Conan met "Okiya"?  Bourbon, assuming that he'd "taken care" of Akai, then took on the persona of "Akai pretending to be dead" to try to figure out what the purpose was behind such a ruse.

We apply all the "head trauma" theories to explain why Scar Akai was right handed and mute, then invoke "healing/recovery of memories" to explain why he was able to procure a gun and fire it, and regain his speech.
But when conan Saw akai it wasn't a "great it worked" expression but a "hes still alive?!?" expression.
Spoiler:
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Exactly.  What I meant was that Bourbon took all those actions unbeknownst to Conan, who thought Okiya(Bourbon) was Akai.  So now that an "Akai" shows up, Conan's like "WTF THEN WHO IS OKIYA!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!!"
Last edited by Abs. on March 26th, 2010, 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by soratothamax »

Just to be clear here, Okiya only popped the question of whether he could stay at Agasa's after he arrived and talked with Agasa a bit. Before then, Okiya's stated intention was to meet the professor. If Conan wanted to prevent Okiya from staying at Agasa's, he would have had to speak up after Okiya asked if staying with Agasa would be OK. Conan didn't. Additionally, Agasa only asked if Ai had a problem with it, which would have made it awkward for Conan to chime in.
Also there is no reason for Okiya, regardless of his identity, to suspect there is something going on just because he was refused a temporary stay at a house. Would you let some random person you met five minutes ago who walked in off the street stay at your place suddenly? On the flip side, if a complete stranger you just met five minutes ago declined your request to temporarily stay at their house would you suspect them of suspicious activity? The real suspicious one in this picture is Conan - a little boy suddenly decides to allow a random stranger to stay at a house belonging to an unrelated teenage friend without consulting him beforehand.
But Conan saw the problem, and interfered, though it wasn't his house, and he didn't have to make any suggestions at all. Instead, he made the suggestion for Okiya to stay at his house.

But I do understand what you mean. It's odd for a random guy to ask to stay at your house. Conan seemed strange for letting the random person stay at his house. However, Okiya seemed to be under the impression that they both already knew what he wanted from them (Ai thinking he was a BO member, Conan acting oddly cordial), so Okiya put it upon himself to ask. If they had turned Okiya down, Okiya would ask why not, and they would be left with the hanging question. If they allowed hm to stay, without any suggestions, then Ai would be left with the suspicious man. Even Agasa seemed ready to say yes to Okiya, until he asked Ai. Still, your theory seems to back this up much more than mine...so I'll wait and see.

The strangest part is also (to add to what you said): WHY WOULD OKIYA ASK TO LIVE WITH Agasa and Ai? He doesn't know them (supposedly) and they don't know him, and how could he possibly think they would allow him to stay with them, out of the blue?

Even scar Akai has spoken - to a man to hand back his phone. Also scar Akai is deliberately playing the mute act in front of the FBI (and the readers). Unless Gosho wanted to make Okiya mute as well, speaking was unavoidable given his introduction - as a case suspect.
This is what I'm saying: Gosho could've just made Okiya a silent, and mysterious character "to the reader/watcher" like he's doing with Scar Akai. He didn't have to give him a "voice" just yet. Okiya could've been created to play the mute act, but he wasn't. He was given a distinct different voice, that didn't seem to apply to Akai just several episodes later within the same season. So my question is, will Okiya's voice be "lost in the world of disguises?" or will it still "exist as a character"? I have never seen main protagonist in this manner, where the voice, look, mannerisms, and abilities (like cooking and watering plants) are completely wiped from existence as if they never existed. When Akai takes off his mask, the Akai actor will be left or the Okiya actor? Meaning either voice could be gone, Akai or Okiyas. So either Akai's voice was fake, or Okiya's. One voice will have to stay, because both actors would not be able to stay as they are if Okiya is the disguise.

It's different when someone's voice is replaced, as with Kogoro, when there are two actors for one character. It'd be different if two actors both had the seiyu in cast and credits as Akai. But only one Seiyu has been announced for Akai, and in the SAME cast and credits in each episode, Okiya's voice is still the same. Akai's voice was not replaced by Okiya's, it remained the same as it had since Clash of Red and Black, therefore stating that if he does have a different voice, he is changing it somehow....

If he is, he has to be using something. Because you said that they are using Okiya's voice as a part of the disguise (so it wouldn't be obvious), that means the "disguised voice" must also be revealed, along with everything. So when the mask comes off, there needs to be an explanation as to why he disguised his voice as well. I can't decide where the disguising of his voice could be taking place on his body.

Unless, you are implying that Okiya's voice is not a part of the disguise....and if it's not....it's just there because they couldn't find a better way to disguise Akai's voice (though that would mean it's still a disguise)...So though Okiya and Akai do not have the same voice within the same season, it's not a disguised voice, it's just there to temporarily ease the voice of Akai...until his original voice could return? Or maybe the Akai voice was fake, and the Okiya voice is real? So Akai's voice will be lost in the world of disguises, though his voice has appeared AFTER Okiya's  too? Someone's voice is going to have to stay, and the other is temporary if the theory is correct.

Also Okiya's voice also have to be a disguise, otherwise Ran would've noticed if it was Akai's voice. So their voices can't be too similar. So, obviously Okiya's voice is part of the disguise. So that means Akai changed his voice too.

Which would mean,  Akai is using a disguise machine, which I'd need to find just exactly how he could've changed his voice....and have no clue how he could've done that.
As I said above twice already, it would be too obvious a hint to use the same voice actors. The point I was making above was because they have to use different voice actors, it doesn't matter how different they sound because even when one voice actor is deliberately trying to copy another voice actor, as in Kogoro's case, they still don't match. Therefore you can't use as evidence the difference in their voices in the anime. Let's not have a repeat of the hair dye thing please...
But two actors are not trying to copy one another. There is no proof of that. One was signed as Okiya, the other was signed as Akai. They were not both signed as the same character within the cast and credits. "Too obvious a hint?" Well, there have been many cases where voice played a key role, and the distinction of voice was important (as in a case where Kobayashi heard a voice in the alley way, and had to find distinction between TWO characters). When it comes to single characters (like two actors both playing Kogoro) it is different.  But both characters appear in the same season, and have two different seiyus credited as two different characters? That's money that they're pouring into an actor and fake that didn't even need to have a "voice" yet, that could've been left as an "enigmatic figure" by Gosho so it could work with the anime or given the same voice as Akai.

That means the only way to explain the two of them becoming "one person" would be to explain that "the other cast member played the disguise"(or in other words that actor was only around to play the disguise in which the other actor couldn't provide the 'disguise voice', which would mean that Akai "changed his voice" into the other "character's voice" (in other words after he's revealed, his voice in 563-564 can come back, but the other voice was only used not to make it obvious that he was disguised...).  To stay away from that obvious streak, they would also have to supply an explanation of how Akai was able to use a different character's voice (maybe with a voice changing machine?). They couldn't just say, it would've been too obvious...and then there are some people that say "Why didn't Ran recognize the obviously similar voices?" Why didn't Jodie?

This was like when Heiji was disguised as Shinichi. It could be written off as "they replaced Heiji's voice with Shinichi's" but we are credited that they are two separate characters. And so when Heiji took off the mask, there was an explanation as to how he sounded so much like Shinichi. If Okiya was Akai's other half, the credits would have to credit him as so...it's part of giving some rights to the actor...some acting agreements I believe.

This is the reason they couldn't credit Scar Akai as a character in the credits and cast, and so he is not recognized as a "real character yet". Why didn't they do this with Okiya? I'm sure Gosho considered how it would be in the anime, and how it would sound. Did he consider that Okiya would just snatch off his face and voice and become "All Akai"? that means apart of Akai will be lost, and so would part of Okiya. Okiya's face, and voice, or Akai's original face and voice. And someone's mannerisms.

Did they switch between each other? Akai's actor gets credited as Akai one day, and Okiya's actor gets credited another day for Akai? It doesn't seem to be so in the cast and credits. That would mean they would have to sign as each other, and someone's character will lose it's place in the cast and credits: namely Okiya. There would have been no point in crediting Okiya if he is not a recognized character.

No, he was a low ranking codenamed member. He hadn't even met Gin yet. Kir at this point is higher ranking than Akai was.
In Clash of Red and Black Akai said he got in through Akami, and worked his way through the ranks through Akemi's sister who was higher ranked (Ai). He was so good that he became an executive member, working alongside Gin as Rye. But Gin found him out. He became an executive member, so at this point, he probably knows a lot about the BO.
You are making the assumption that Okiya knows Shinichi and Conan are definitely connected. He may not. If anything it's the opposite of what you say; Okiya has definitely expressed interest in Conan's identity but hasn't clearly so far for Ai's identity. We know from what he said to Ran that he looked around Shinichi's house for traces of the landlord: clothes, journals, and albums, but found nothing personally identifying. (chap 639 pg. 5) Also Conan specifically warned Ran not to talk about Shinichi to Okiya. Okiya's interactions with Ai have been relatively normal. Okiya did visit Agasa's during the haunted warehouse case, but Ai was out at the time. Catching her at Ikkaku rock was nothing special either. The photo he took had Conan as well as Ai in it, so it isn't clear who is the target -if anyone.
I'm not assuming that he knows Conan is Shinichi. But I don't think he particularly cared at first until he was asked by Conan to stay there, and examined his new home. When he asked to stay with Ai, Ai was his target, and he didn't seem to care about Shinichi then. But when he stayed at Shinichi's house, he saw that it was odd that there were no signs of an owner.
Ai doesn't know Akai as Akai. She only knows him as Moroboshi Dai who was Rye. Remember she tells Conan she wants to meet Akai before the Shiranpuri case in R.vs.B. She did sense Akai when he was around.
Spoiler:
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Spoiler:
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Also, it Akai instructed two other people to watch the DB during the "death in the dark" case. They probably passed the photo on to him - he probably didn't take it himself because he wanted to keep his distance.
Even when he's next to her, she doesn't sense him. you have as one of your evidences in RED in your siggy that Ai feels a BO presence from Okiya just like she does Akai. But I don't remember her ever feeling a BO presence from him. I remember that she felt a BO presence in Bus Hijack, but it wasn't Akai, it was Vermouth, and she never felt Akai following her during the case where they spent the night with the film crew. Usually Haibara notices that type of presence right away. I don't remember her sensing a BO presence from him at all, like she does Okiya.

She was paranoid when she saw his face, but even when he was behind her without her noticing, like in the bus or when he was following her to the film place, she didn't feel his presence. She felt Okiya's presence from first glance. She only began to be paranoid by Akai after Conan pointed out that they were being followed by him. But before then, she didn't feel anything. She became on gaurd after she noticed him stalking her. The other BO members she didn't need Conan to point them out. Her senses kicked in instantly, and the stronger the presence the more she felt it over the others.

During the film case where he first followed her, there was no other BO member, and she didn't notice him even then.

No, the reference was to point out that Conan said his house would be the best place to spy on. The Conan not ignoring Ai bit was a common sense argument.
Oh okay. Gotcha.
Last edited by soratothamax on March 26th, 2010, 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by soratothamax »

Abs. wrote:
Xcommando wrote:
Abs. wrote: This made me think!  What if Conan and Akai had planned to fake Akai's death as Chekhov had outlined, but BOURBON SAW THROUGH IT AND GOT TO AKAI at the little boy's house before Conan met "Okiya"?  Bourbon, assuming that he'd "taken care" of Akai, then took on the persona of "Akai pretending to be dead" to try to figure out what the purpose was behind such a ruse.

We apply all the "head trauma" theories to explain why Scar Akai was right handed and mute, then invoke "healing/recovery of memories" to explain why he was able to procure a gun and fire it, and regain his speech.
But when conan Saw akai it wasn't a "great it worked" expression but a "hes still alive?!?" expression.
Spoiler:
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Exactly.  What I meant was that Bourbon took all those actions unbeknownst to Conan, who thought Okiya(Bourbon) was Akai.  So now that an "Akai" shows up, Conan's like "WTF THEN WHO IS OKIYA!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!!"
Hmmm good point. :-\
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

Abs. wrote:
Spoiler: collapsed for length
ShinRanFTW wrote: During the Mall Bombing case was the first time that Conan knew about Scar Akai. I think that Conan was still skeptical about whether or not Okiya was Akai. This case was the first time that Conan found out about Scar Akai, so when this happened he wondered if he couldn't been mistaken about Okiya's identity, and that Scar Akai was the real Akai. This would explain why Conan tried so hard to stop Scar Akai from being killed. If this is true, then the explanation to reaction here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/704/16/
could be that he's starting to wonder if Okiya was actually Bourbon and that he was trying to find and eliminate Akai.
This made me think!  What if Conan and Akai had planned to fake Akai's death as Chekhov had outlined, but BOURBON SAW THROUGH IT AND GOT TO AKAI at the little boy's house before Conan met "Okiya"?  Bourbon, assuming that he'd "taken care" of Akai, then took on the persona of "Akai pretending to be dead" to try to figure out what the purpose was behind such a ruse.

We apply all the "head trauma" theories to explain why Scar Akai was right handed and mute, then invoke "healing/recovery of memories" to explain why he was able to procure a gun and fire it, and regain his speech.

Please, Chekhov, tear this to shreds as you see fit.   ;D
Well, part of the problem is how did Bourbon find out what the plan was since it was kept secret even from the FBI? If Bourbon did figure out the plan somehow, then he would already know that the only way it would work would be if Kir was a traitor and the plan was to regain the Org's trust. There isn't much of a ruse to figure out. Bourbon could have informed the boss about Kir's origins by now if he had some sort of proof he had "finished" Akai off a second time. Even if he didn't have proof, I'm sure just explaining what happened to the boss would have worked just as well. That leaves Conan to wonder about, but since he saw Ai with Conan, I'm sure he could put one and one together and guess Conan was in the same situation as Sherry. At this point there isn't anything to hold him back from collecting the two kids, killing Ai and interrogating Conan for anything he doesn't know. All the time he spends dallying is increasing the probability Conan could figure out what is really going on. Also this theory relies on Conan making a dumb mistake which I have dedicated a section to in the Okiya=Akai reasons list.
Was I comprehensive enough or do I need to work harder? ;)
Abs. wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: No, he was a low ranking codenamed member. He hadn't even met Gin yet. Kir at this point is higher ranking than Akai was.
Wait what?
It's true. Well sort of. He may have reached the same level as Kir when he was made, but he was found out right after that. I might have been wrong about Akai not meeting Gin before, but I doubt he worked with Gin often if it's a big deal just to meet the guy.
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Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on March 26th, 2010, 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
soratothamax
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by soratothamax »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Abs. wrote:
Spoiler: collapsed for length
ShinRanFTW wrote: During the Mall Bombing case was the first time that Conan knew about Scar Akai. I think that Conan was still skeptical about whether or not Okiya was Akai. This case was the first time that Conan found out about Scar Akai, so when this happened he wondered if he couldn't been mistaken about Okiya's identity, and that Scar Akai was the real Akai. This would explain why Conan tried so hard to stop Scar Akai from being killed. If this is true, then the explanation to reaction here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/704/16/
could be that he's starting to wonder if Okiya was actually Bourbon and that he was trying to find and eliminate Akai.
This made me think!  What if Conan and Akai had planned to fake Akai's death as Chekhov had outlined, but BOURBON SAW THROUGH IT AND GOT TO AKAI at the little boy's house before Conan met "Okiya"?  Bourbon, assuming that he'd "taken care" of Akai, then took on the persona of "Akai pretending to be dead" to try to figure out what the purpose was behind such a ruse.

We apply all the "head trauma" theories to explain why Scar Akai was right handed and mute, then invoke "healing/recovery of memories" to explain why he was able to procure a gun and fire it, and regain his speech.

Please, Chekhov, tear this to shreds as you see fit.   ;D
Well, part of the problem is how did Bourbon find out what the plan was since it was kept secret even from the FBI? If Bourbon did figure out the plan somehow, then he would already know that the only way it would work would be if Kir was a traitor and the plan was to regain the Org's trust. There isn't much of a ruse to figure out. Bourbon could have informed the boss about Kir's origins by now if he had some sort of proof he had "finished" Akai off a second time. Even if he didn't have proof, I'm sure just explaining what happened to the boss would have worked just as well. That leaves Conan to wonder about, but since he saw Ai with Conan, I'm sure he could put one and one together and guess Conan was in the same situation as Sherry. At this point there isn't anything to hold him back from collecting the two kids, killing Ai and interrogating Conan for anything he doesn't know. All the time he spends dallying is increasing the probability Conan could figure out what is really going on. Also this theory relies on Conan making a dumb mistake which I have dedicated a section to in the Okiya=Akai reasons list.
Was I comprehensive enough or do I need to work harder? ;)
Abs. wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: No, he was a low ranking codenamed member. He hadn't even met Gin yet. Kir at this point is higher ranking than Akai was.
Wait what?
It's true. Well sort of. He may have reached the same level as Kir when he was made, but he was found out right after that. I might have been wrong about Akai not meeting Gin before, but I doubt he worked with Gin often if it's a big deal just to meet the guy.
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Well see the argument you made was that Gosho never makes Conan wrong. But it may not be that Conan thinks Okiya is akai...and may know him as someone else.

This is an outlandish theory...
Spoiler:
He might think it's Ai's father, especially since in the manga file that Okiya asked to stay with Ai he said he could help Agasa with his "work", so he's probably good with scientific affairs. And it would make sense for Ai's father to remain a mystery, especially if he told everyone he was dead. Also, I can see him spying on both Ai and Conan, possibly to see the effects of the drug. And he seemed comfortable with Agasa enough not to mind staying with him. Also, he has hair similar to Ai. Also him looking like Ai could make him look familiar to Ran. Also, he was/is part of the BO, so Ai can sense the presence.....just totally rambling. Ignore if you wish... ;D
Also, that argument is like my argument that says "Gosho never makes any of his main protagonist characters out to be disguised" or "Gosho never kills any of his main protagonists". He also never makes his main protagonist to be wrong.

But Gosho could be doing any of the above to spice things up.
Last edited by soratothamax on March 26th, 2010, 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by Kor »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: Well, part of the problem is how did Bourbon find out what the plan was since it was kept secret even from the FBI? If Bourbon did figure out the plan somehow, then he would already know that the only way it would work would be if Kir was a traitor and the plan was to regain the Org's trust. There isn't much of a ruse to figure out. Bourbon could have informed the boss about Kir's origins by now if he had some sort of proof he had "finished" Akai off a second time. Even if he didn't have proof, I'm sure just explaining what happened to the boss would have worked just as well. That leaves Conan to wonder about, but since he saw Ai with Conan, I'm sure he could put one and one together and guess Conan was in the same situation as Sherry. At this point there isn't anything to hold him back from collecting the two kids, killing Ai and interrogating Conan for anything he doesn't know. All the time he spends dallying is increasing the probability Conan could figure out what is really going on. Also this theory relies on Conan making a dumb mistake which I have dedicated a section to in the Okiya=Akai reasons list.
Was I comprehensive enough or do I need to work harder? ;)
And then there was no reason for Okiya to not let Jodie meet with scar Akai, there was no need for Gin to stop the order to kill scar Akai.
soratothamax wrote: Even when he's next to her, she doesn't sense him. you have as one of your evidences in RED in your siggy that Ai feels a BO presence from Okiya just like she does Akai. But I don't remember her ever feeling a BO presence from him. I remember that she felt a BO presence in Bus Hijack, but it wasn't Akai, it was Vermouth, and she never felt Akai following her during the case where they spent the night with the film crew. Usually Haibara notices that type of presence right away. I don't remember her sensing a BO presence from him at all, like she does Okiya.
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/326/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/383/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/380/07/
soratothamax wrote: Well see the argument you made was that Gosho never makes Conan wrong.
Conan is (and has always been) a living Deus Ex Machina. He always has the exact knowledge to solve the case (even though it was never mentioned that he has that knowledge. The dogs case for example). He always has a way to get out of any possible danger. The thing after the Vermouth confrontation with Conan and Vermouth in the car, to me it seemed a bit...well....odd...and like Gosho was out of ideas already.
Seriously, even the eagles from Lord of the Rings are embarrassed from Detective "Deus Ex Machina" Conan  8)
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by soratothamax »

And then there was no reason for Okiya to not let Jodie meet with scar Akai, there was no need for Gin to stop the order to kill scar Akai.
I think that everybody was confused in that chapter, and almost doubted themselves....even Conan ;D

It's as I said before, those moments didn't come until AFTER Conan pointed out that person was following Ai the first time Ai was introduced. Also, Ai SAW him looking at her strangely. But with Gin and Vermouth, they don't even have to look at her, neither does Conan have to inform her of their presence.

The third reference you made was Conan's instincts more than Ai's.  ;D

Conan is (and has always been) a living Deus Ex Machina. He always has the exact knowledge to solve the case (even though it was never mentioned that he has that knowledge. The dogs case for example). He always has a way to get out of any possible danger. The thing after the Vermouth confrontation with Conan and Vermouth in the car, to me it seemed a bit...well....odd...and like Gosho was out of ideas already.
Seriously, even the eagles from Lord of the Rings are embarrassed from Detective "Deus Ex Machina" Conan  8)
LOL HAHA!!!!! I'll buy this as proof....because it IS pretty obvious that it doesn't matter what happens, Conan will always win..... ::) That Vermouth confrontation always take me "aback" as well....
Spoiler:
I was like "what the butt? Conan was a robot? So where is the real Conan? out in the woods somewhere? ";D That was when I was watching it....

But yea, where the butt is all of the BO manga files that Gosho should be writing? I like the Detective Boys and Mouri Kogoro and all, but I think it's about time to bring out the MIB storyline...
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by Kor »

soratothamax wrote: I think that everybody was confused in that chapter, and almost doubted themselves....even Conan ;D
Even Gosho  :-X
Would be funny how it takes Gin a few weeks to finally tell Kir what he's going to do......it also certainly took Vodka to find out about scar Akai and inform Gin. With Gosho's dragging, he makes the black organization look truly unrealistic regarding the slow activity.
soratothamax wrote: But with Gin and Vermouth, they don't even have to look at her
I wouldn't give a credit to Ai regarding her issues with Gin:
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/241/18/
He might scare her to death, but it doesn't look like he's on the same level as Vermouth in her radar.
soratothamax wrote: I'll buy this as proof....because it IS pretty obvious that it doesn't matter what happens, Conan will always win..... ::) That Vermouth confrontation always take me "aback" as well....
Well, it's not much of a proof actually. Conan can be wrong, but in that case, he is only pretending to be wrong in order to fool...whoever he's trying to fool.

More of a living DEM, Conan is also a Mary Sue, along with many characters, such as Akai.
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Re: New Member Here - A few theories

Post by soratothamax »

Even Gosho  :-X
Would be funny how it takes Gin a few weeks to finally tell Kir what he's going to do......it also certainly took Vodka to find out about scar Akai and inform Gin. With Gosho's dragging, he makes the black organization look truly unrealistic regarding the slow activity.
yea, especially with his desperate attempts to fill a chapter with something totally out-of-character for some just because he ran out of ideas....I think he's running out of ideas for interesting ways for Conan to escape the BO's clutches... ;D
I wouldn't give a credit to Ai regarding her issues with Gin:
http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/241/18/
He might scare her to death, but it doesn't look like he's on the same level as Vermouth in her radar.
Yea, you're right. In that same case, she also couldn't sense Pisco. She said that certain senses disguise others, the stronger the scent I guess the more it takes over the weaker...

But I don't remember anyone being around Akai when he was stalking her the first time. She just totally didn't sense him during that case where he was first introduced. In episode 176, she was having dreams about Gin...she knew when he was in the city, though she didn't sense him behind her. I suppose she already knew that Gin was around, but can't sense when they are DIRECTLY next to her all the time...She had to be pointed out Akai by Conan. And never felt his presence unless he looked at her funny. She didn't have weird dreams about him, neither did she sense Akai right away....

Well, it's not much of a proof actually. Conan can be wrong, but in that case, he is only pretending to be wrong in order to fool...whoever he's trying to fool.

More of a living DEM, Conan is also a Mary Sue, along with many characters, such as Akai.
ain't that the truth.
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