My theories about the plot.

[Moerp]

.

[usotsuki]

I don't know how it translates to WSS chapters, but it's volume 30 chapters 4-7 in the collected manga that correspond to that case.

[jimmy_kud0_tv2]

I don't know how it translates to WSS chapters, but it's volume 30 chapters 4-7 in the collected manga that correspond to that case.

The case is chapters 299-302. Karasuma's silhouette is only shown in chapter 300 on the dot.

[Uchiha Shadow]

About the boss's identity theories
It is good to keep specific people in mind like Karasuma Renya, but it is far too early to point to anyone in particular right now. The clues (that I am aware of so far) just aren't specific enough to implicate any individual.

About the boss' back story
My personal story-theory involving an age-stopped boss is far too fragile to use as a basis for serious theory; the only support is that I think Gosho would do something like that. My track record for predicting what Gosho will do next is pretty terrible. Out of the people I keep track of who make predictions on what Gosho will do next Jd- does better. Seriously, Jd- would probably be the one to ask what kind of story Gosho would do for a boss given the current information.

About Rum's personality and objective
The clues are too thin to speculate at this level of detail. Maybe we can say Rum is sort of a recluse since people are rather conflicted about what he looks like, which means he must not show himself around a whole lot.

Is that really so? Personally I found your theory about the boss' background really convincing, well, I guess I'll have to think of other possibilities. And yeah about Karasuma Renya, it's true we don't have much evidence, and I am waiting for Gosho's answers to my questions so that I can use them as evidence that points out whether he's the boss or not.

As for RUM yes it's still way too early to speculate about him, we only have info about his appearance, I will keep the RUM theory under update as we progress through the arc.

I am missing some kind of TL:DR. I did not read all of it so correct me if i am wrong but I think I have a strong argument against it:

Karasuma Renya appeared but once in chapter 300, right? The entire story around him is Detective Conans take on Agatha Christies best selling novel "And then there were none". Him dying mysteriously is therefore just the way the novel ended as the its name suggests. Therefore I think it is just Gohso taking his spin on an all time classic of mystery novels. The entire plot of this story is based upon it. This argument is not based on things inside the manga but as a mangaka it is unlikely he choose his main antagonist this way.

My main point is: If we want to find out who anokata is we have to understand the man behind him. This being the author, the real leader of the BO. You quoted interviews yet his answers in those are biased. He does those to make sales, to be polite or to evade an answer. For example “It’s someone that Haibara would never have expected.” is imho just his way of doing exactly anyone in this situation would do. Not answering the question yet giving fans room to speculate.

What you said can be considered as an argument against, I may add it, but I don't know if we should really just depend on the fact that it based on a novel from Agatha Christie, as it isn't really something from the canon information that we know about the boss, so far I can't prove Karasuma is/isn't the boss based on the currently known facts, it's just an argument, that's why I'm waiting for information that can serve as an evidence. And yeah I agree about what you said concerning Gosho, I honestly don't really understand why he keeps giving these answers in the interviews, for example him saying that the goal of the BO is not immortality seriously causes a lot of trouble in finding out the true goal of the BO, as you can see my theory regarding it, it's hard to figure it out if we want to believe he said the truth.

[Moerp]

.

[Uchiha Shadow]

Let me paraphrase the similarities between the book and the Karasuma Renya story.

Similarities:
9 people (7 detectives +conan and ran) gather at a mansion.
The housekeeper (Original the butler) greats them but knows nothing about her boss. He /She is given instructions to set up the dinner table in a specific way
they gather in the dinning room were a loudspeaker (orignal: grammophon) tells them about the murder commited (in DC they are supposed to reinact this).
The first one dies directly by poison in his drink.
The others kill each other in similar fashion
The culprit was among them from the start and wanted to end it there by killing herself.

The only difference is the treasure. This is clearly a plot device to give a motivation to invite so many detectives. That kaito kid is in this chapter makes it even more reasonable to assume it is not plot relevant. This is a bonus episode to honor the best selling mystery thriller of all time.

I know that, yet none of these similarities could eliminate Karasuma from being a boss suspect, and about Kaito Kid's involvement, it was nothing more than him wanting to steal the treasure, he is not connected to Karausma Renya in any way, which means he still will not be involved if Karasuma Renya is the boss. As I said before, I may put what you said as a small argument against him being the boss even though it doesn't involve manga information. Btw, I am not saying that Karasuma is in fact the boss, I'm just saying that he's the most likely one out of the characters who are likely to include the boss in them, I still haven't done all the research, there are still some characters in from the point where I stopped and chapter 552, once I'm done with it, I'd see if any of them could really be the boss.

[Kor]

As for what you said earlier, I made this theory so of course I'm going to assume what I think is correct, if I don't then there would be no point to this theory and I wouldn't have even posted it.

I wasn't asking you whether or not you think you're correct. I said:

"This is merely your interpretation. There's very little actual evidence to what you're trying to say."

If your argument is that you think you're correct, well... that's not very convincing. Lots of people here made theories which they thought were correct.

To be honest, I initially wasn't going to reply to your first post, but it did lead me to actually "understand" episode 219 better. Plus, I find a lot of your rhetorics to be rather faulty.

this theory should be promising since the chances of it being correct are 65%

Based on what have you reached this number? You mention calculations a couple of times throughout your first post, but either you're just throwing numbers, or you don't realize that math doesn't work the way you think it works (at least not in an applicable way to your theory)

2) He 'died' the same time the organization started(according to my theory).

How is that an argument for Karasuma to be the boss? Just because you have a theory about something doesn't really work as an argument. Show us the evidence that supports your theory. Prove your first theory, then build ontop of it the next theory.

4) Every time we saw him, we never saw his face for some reason, he was also wearing a black suit and had a crow on his left shoulder.

Perhaps because his existence is meant to be eerie and mysterious? To support the atmosphere of the case? If none of our protagonists even know what he looks like, the writer doesn't even need to share this detail. It sure makes him mysterious, but not so much a boss candidate.

7) There are many holes/things that aren't explained or make sense in the backstory of the 2 'thieves' who 'stole' the 300 items(see below).

We actually don't know for sure whether that story even took place at all. For all we know, it could just have been something Senma made up. Even one of the detectives during the case seems to think the story was in fact a lie.

9) The relation between Vermouth and the boss, she can be the boss' mother, Although I don't think she is the boss' mother, since she is described as the boss' favorite, and it seems(to me at least) that she is a little bit spoiled, I don't think she would be his favorite and that she would be spoiled if she was his mother, and I doubt she would just wish that the organization is destroyed if he was her son for 2 reasons, the first one is that if she is his mother she would probably support him rather than wanting him to stop, but that is just how I feel. The second one is that even if she really does wish the BO is destroyed, I don't think she would just keep it to herself, it's more likely(in my opinion) that she would tell him not to do it from the start or even confront him, not to mention the boss' message to Vermouth: "Seems like I gave you too much freedom before. Return to me immediately, Vermouth", I don't think that the boss would say that to his mother, it seems more fitting if he said that to his daughter/granddaughter, thus I think that she's his daughter or granddaughter, not to mention that her being the boss' daughter or specifically his granddaughter, would greatly surprise the other members. And Karasuma Renya is the only one that is old enough to be her father/grandfather if she was as old as I think she is, which is between 70 and 90 years old.

I don't see how any of this is an argument for anything. It's pure speculation with no evidence.

10) Karasuma Renya is ridiculously rich, that fits with the boss of the BO since to be able of creating such a large organization and paying for the scientists, the boss must have a lot of money, and Karasuma has enough money to build a large mansion out of pure gold, not to mention he had 300 items that are worth making an auction for.

Karasuma didn't build the mansion, he inherited it from his mother. He didn't even know where the treasure is. After all, he hired a bunch of people (including Senma's father) in order to find the treasure, and went on to kill some of those people in order to motivate the others to find it faster. Plus again, the auction story might have not even happened.

1) If his story is true, then he would be dead. Although this doesn't count as an argument against since in this theory we're assuming his story is not true.

This doesn't make any sense. Why should we assume his story isn't true? Then we're just biased for the sake of a theory without thinking about it more objectively. You're asking us to accept your unprovable theory, in order to dismiss an argument against your theory.

2) He would be 149 years old right now, which is highly unlikely but since he could've stopped aging/ de-aged this would make sense in a fictional manga. And again this doesn't really count as an argument against.

Because....?
Also, you seem to have his age and timeline wrong. We actually don't know for sure at what age he was, since again, Senma's the one who tells us these details and we have no way to confirm whether or not she's telling the truth (during the dinner). But Even if he was 99 when he died, he wouldn't be 149, but 139, because according to Senma, he was alive 40 years ago, which was when he was responsible for the death of her father and the other people who searched for the secret of the mansion.

3) It's kind of too obvious. However there are 3 counter-arguments for this one: 1.Gosho might've made it obvious on purpose so that we'll not think of him. 2.The 'obvious' clues in this case can't be explained by normal means, in other cases(such as Okiya or Jodie), the 'obvious' clues can be explained by another way other than the character being the BO member of that arc, the fact that Okiya drinks Bourbon and triggers Haibara's BO sense can be explained since he's Akai, Akai's favorite drink is Bourbon, and he was in the BO so he has the BO 'aura'. However in Karasuma's case, I can't think of any other way to explain the unexplained things in Karasuma's story(see below) or the arguments with him being the boss. 3.It's not as obvious as it seems, only very few people have even thought about Karasuma Renya being the boss(I only saw about 5 out 1000s of fans) and thus it's not so obvious.

It's obvious enough that this theory can be found in this forum. It's obvious enough that when you're starting to type "Karasuma" in google, it auto suggests "Karasuma Renya boss". It's obvious enough that for the strangest reason, the French wikipedia article for the boss lists him as a speculation. Just because you only saw 5 out of a thousand people (again, where are you getting these numbers?) think about it, means very little. You are not the epitome of objectiveness regarding what's obvious and what isn't.

This whole argument can be used as an argument against but it's not based on facts.

Almost all of your arguments aren't based on facts, but on mere speculation and skewed interpretation to fit the narrative you're supporting.

This also doesn't count as an argument against.

If in every one of your arguments in your "arguments against" section, you end it by saying "this also doesn't count as an argument against", then why are you even putting it in this section to begin with. It just looks like you're fighting strawmen.

It may be possible that all of that is true, however, that was before the creation of the B.O, my theory suggests that he probably changed after the accident or whatever happened to him that made him create the BO, and became a lot more cautious, not only that, but the mansion was built before the B.O was made, thus negating the "Wouldn't the boss rather use that gold as money for research instead of having to get together a team of assassins, blackmailers, and criminals to earn money?" point, besides, everyone who tried to sell/buy his items or investigate the mansion were killed/died, not to mention that according to my theory, he sent the 2 people who caused the tragedy 40 years ago because people were trying to sell his items, as for point 2 in the previous argument, he may not need to cover the tracks of his previous life as no one would think that he's alive since he would be almost 150 years old let alone in the body of a 7 year old child, there are also probably no tracks left on him in the mansion anymore, and as for point 3 I can't really counter that except by saying that he might not care about the mansion anymore since he can't live in it or anything, after all assuming he shrank, he wouldn't be Karasuma Renya anymore, but someone else, it would be like Shinichi being stuck in Conan's child body for the rest of his life, he wouldn't really need his house anymore, at least that's what I think.

While at first we are told that the tragedy that took place 40 years ago is the incident of the auction with the two thieves, later on Senma says the incident of her father's death (along with the other people who searched for the treasure) also took place 40 years ago, so the tragedy is more likely to be the latter, while the former could just be something Senma made up.

First of all, who were those people who were helping him in searching the treasure?

People Karasuma hired in order to uncover the secret of the mansion and find the treasure.

And where are they now?

Dead, I'd say. Either died from old age, or by the hands of Karasuma who was killing them.

It's weird because they should've mentioned something about the treasure since they might know what it is and how to find it, could they have possibly been killed?

Supposedly Karasuma died without uncovering the secret. Senma's father left the codes before he died, so he likely solved it, but didn't share it.

5) The messages that Senma Kyosuke left, he wrote 2 messages: The first one is the message wrote in the paper, which was the code to find the treasure, the second one was the bloody message left on the piano, all we know is that it said: "The last way...." but why didn't Gosho tell us the rest?
Based on the fact that the 2 men -indirectly- killed everyone in the auction, and the way they were killed as well(it was done in a way where there was no way they would be tracked down), then stole the items so that no one else would come to buy them, not to mention Senma's father's unexplained death when he knew more than he should've about Karasuma Renya, to me and the 2 messages he left, these are all things that when connected together, we'll get one known thing: There are still a lot of unexplained things about Karasuma Renya, and Gosho never does that to a case that isn't related to the plot, so if a case still has many mysteries behind it, that means it's important, so this is yet another argument that Karasuma Renya is the boss of the black organization or at least related to it.

Both codes were related to finding the treasure. Via the message on the piano, Conan realized the answer.

Even if the auction incident did happen (which I don't truly think it did), the reason why the details we get are so vague is because there were no eyewitnesses for it in the cast, thus we can't expect Gosho to give us details like appearances.

This is enough for now.

[unclesporkums]

I always figured he was just in silhouette. He may have been wearing a red smoking jacket for all we know.

[jimmy_kud0_tv2]

I always figured he was just in silhouette. He may have been wearing a red smoking jacket for all we know.

He only appears in one panel of the manga and is entirely in silhouette. The only parts that aren't solid black are his eyes, his rich person scarf, and his cane. Even the crown on his shoulder is shown in silhouette, except for a slit for an eye.

[unclesporkums]

I know. That's what I was referring to.

[MeiTanteixX]

As usual,... haters gonna hate

[Uchiha Shadow]

As for what you said earlier, I made this theory so of course I'm going to assume what I think is correct, if I don't then there would be no point to this theory and I wouldn't have even posted it.

I wasn't asking you whether or not you think you're correct. I said:

"This is merely your interpretation. There's very little actual evidence to what you're trying to say."

If your argument is that you think you're correct, well... that's not very convincing. Lots of people here made theories which they thought were correct.

To be honest, I initially wasn't going to reply to your first post, but it did lead me to actually "understand" episode 219 better. Plus, I find a lot of your rhetorics to be rather faulty.

this theory should be promising since the chances of it being correct are 65%

Based on what have you reached this number? You mention calculations a couple of times throughout your first post, but either you're just throwing numbers, or you don't realize that math doesn't work the way you think it works (at least not in an applicable way to your theory)

2) He 'died' the same time the organization started(according to my theory).

How is that an argument for Karasuma to be the boss? Just because you have a theory about something doesn't really work as an argument. Show us the evidence that supports your theory. Prove your first theory, then build ontop of it the next theory.

4) Every time we saw him, we never saw his face for some reason, he was also wearing a black suit and had a crow on his left shoulder.

Perhaps because his existence is meant to be eerie and mysterious? To support the atmosphere of the case? If none of our protagonists even know what he looks like, the writer doesn't even need to share this detail. It sure makes him mysterious, but not so much a boss candidate.

7) There are many holes/things that aren't explained or make sense in the backstory of the 2 'thieves' who 'stole' the 300 items(see below).

We actually don't know for sure whether that story even took place at all. For all we know, it could just have been something Senma made up. Even one of the detectives during the case seems to think the story was in fact a lie.

9) The relation between Vermouth and the boss, she can be the boss' mother, Although I don't think she is the boss' mother, since she is described as the boss' favorite, and it seems(to me at least) that she is a little bit spoiled, I don't think she would be his favorite and that she would be spoiled if she was his mother, and I doubt she would just wish that the organization is destroyed if he was her son for 2 reasons, the first one is that if she is his mother she would probably support him rather than wanting him to stop, but that is just how I feel. The second one is that even if she really does wish the BO is destroyed, I don't think she would just keep it to herself, it's more likely(in my opinion) that she would tell him not to do it from the start or even confront him, not to mention the boss' message to Vermouth: "Seems like I gave you too much freedom before. Return to me immediately, Vermouth", I don't think that the boss would say that to his mother, it seems more fitting if he said that to his daughter/granddaughter, thus I think that she's his daughter or granddaughter, not to mention that her being the boss' daughter or specifically his granddaughter, would greatly surprise the other members. And Karasuma Renya is the only one that is old enough to be her father/grandfather if she was as old as I think she is, which is between 70 and 90 years old.

I don't see how any of this is an argument for anything. It's pure speculation with no evidence.

10) Karasuma Renya is ridiculously rich, that fits with the boss of the BO since to be able of creating such a large organization and paying for the scientists, the boss must have a lot of money, and Karasuma has enough money to build a large mansion out of pure gold, not to mention he had 300 items that are worth making an auction for.

Karasuma didn't build the mansion, he inherited it from his mother. He didn't even know where the treasure is. After all, he hired a bunch of people (including Senma's father) in order to find the treasure, and went on to kill some of those people in order to motivate the others to find it faster. Plus again, the auction story might have not even happened.

1) If his story is true, then he would be dead. Although this doesn't count as an argument against since in this theory we're assuming his story is not true.

This doesn't make any sense. Why should we assume his story isn't true? Then we're just biased for the sake of a theory without thinking about it more objectively. You're asking us to accept your unprovable theory, in order to dismiss an argument against your theory.

2) He would be 149 years old right now, which is highly unlikely but since he could've stopped aging/ de-aged this would make sense in a fictional manga. And again this doesn't really count as an argument against.

Because....?
Also, you seem to have his age and timeline wrong. We actually don't know for sure at what age he was, since again, Senma's the one who tells us these details and we have no way to confirm whether or not she's telling the truth (during the dinner). But Even if he was 99 when he died, he wouldn't be 149, but 139, because according to Senma, he was alive 40 years ago, which was when he was responsible for the death of her father and the other people who searched for the secret of the mansion.

3) It's kind of too obvious. However there are 3 counter-arguments for this one: 1.Gosho might've made it obvious on purpose so that we'll not think of him. 2.The 'obvious' clues in this case can't be explained by normal means, in other cases(such as Okiya or Jodie), the 'obvious' clues can be explained by another way other than the character being the BO member of that arc, the fact that Okiya drinks Bourbon and triggers Haibara's BO sense can be explained since he's Akai, Akai's favorite drink is Bourbon, and he was in the BO so he has the BO 'aura'. However in Karasuma's case, I can't think of any other way to explain the unexplained things in Karasuma's story(see below) or the arguments with him being the boss. 3.It's not as obvious as it seems, only very few people have even thought about Karasuma Renya being the boss(I only saw about 5 out 1000s of fans) and thus it's not so obvious.

It's obvious enough that this theory can be found in this forum. It's obvious enough that when you're starting to type "Karasuma" in google, it auto suggests "Karasuma Renya boss". It's obvious enough that for the strangest reason, the French wikipedia article for the boss lists him as a speculation. Just because you only saw 5 out of a thousand people (again, where are you getting these numbers?) think about it, means very little. You are not the epitome of objectiveness regarding what's obvious and what isn't.

This whole argument can be used as an argument against but it's not based on facts.

Almost all of your arguments aren't based on facts, but on mere speculation and skewed interpretation to fit the narrative you're supporting.

This also doesn't count as an argument against.

If in every one of your arguments in your "arguments against" section, you end it by saying "this also doesn't count as an argument against", then why are you even putting it in this section to begin with. It just looks like you're fighting strawmen.

It may be possible that all of that is true, however, that was before the creation of the B.O, my theory suggests that he probably changed after the accident or whatever happened to him that made him create the BO, and became a lot more cautious, not only that, but the mansion was built before the B.O was made, thus negating the "Wouldn't the boss rather use that gold as money for research instead of having to get together a team of assassins, blackmailers, and criminals to earn money?" point, besides, everyone who tried to sell/buy his items or investigate the mansion were killed/died, not to mention that according to my theory, he sent the 2 people who caused the tragedy 40 years ago because people were trying to sell his items, as for point 2 in the previous argument, he may not need to cover the tracks of his previous life as no one would think that he's alive since he would be almost 150 years old let alone in the body of a 7 year old child, there are also probably no tracks left on him in the mansion anymore, and as for point 3 I can't really counter that except by saying that he might not care about the mansion anymore since he can't live in it or anything, after all assuming he shrank, he wouldn't be Karasuma Renya anymore, but someone else, it would be like Shinichi being stuck in Conan's child body for the rest of his life, he wouldn't really need his house anymore, at least that's what I think.

While at first we are told that the tragedy that took place 40 years ago is the incident of the auction with the two thieves, later on Senma says the incident of her father's death (along with the other people who searched for the treasure) also took place 40 years ago, so the tragedy is more likely to be the latter, while the former could just be something Senma made up.

First of all, who were those people who were helping him in searching the treasure?

People Karasuma hired in order to uncover the secret of the mansion and find the treasure.

And where are they now?

Dead, I'd say. Either died from old age, or by the hands of Karasuma who was killing them.

It's weird because they should've mentioned something about the treasure since they might know what it is and how to find it, could they have possibly been killed?

Supposedly Karasuma died without uncovering the secret. Senma's father left the codes before he died, so he likely solved it, but didn't share it.

5) The messages that Senma Kyosuke left, he wrote 2 messages: The first one is the message wrote in the paper, which was the code to find the treasure, the second one was the bloody message left on the piano, all we know is that it said: "The last way...." but why didn't Gosho tell us the rest?
Based on the fact that the 2 men -indirectly- killed everyone in the auction, and the way they were killed as well(it was done in a way where there was no way they would be tracked down), then stole the items so that no one else would come to buy them, not to mention Senma's father's unexplained death when he knew more than he should've about Karasuma Renya, to me and the 2 messages he left, these are all things that when connected together, we'll get one known thing: There are still a lot of unexplained things about Karasuma Renya, and Gosho never does that to a case that isn't related to the plot, so if a case still has many mysteries behind it, that means it's important, so this is yet another argument that Karasuma Renya is the boss of the black organization or at least related to it.

Both codes were related to finding the treasure. Via the message on the piano, Conan realized the answer.

Even if the auction incident did happen (which I don't truly think it did), the reason why the details we get are so vague is because there were no eyewitnesses for it in the cast, thus we can't expect Gosho to give us details like appearances.

This is enough for now.

Ok. For now I just want to say that my theory was only based on the translations that I saw, I never knew that they were this different so I'm sorry, the numbers were not really calculations but rather how much I think someone can be the boss, so you can discard that if you want, and as for the arguments against, I put them not because I think they're arguments against, but because people think they are, so I just wanted to point them out, I guess I'd have to re-do my whole theory based on the correct story, but I just want to make sure, is it the most correct translations?

[Kor]

Unfortunately, for both the manga and the episode, there was never an appropriate fan translation in English. Your best bet would be probably to purchase Viz's volume 30, which has a proper translation (though if you don't live in the US or Canada, I'm not sure it's available for you via apps.). The name changes might be annoying, but for the time being, this seems like the best source for understanding this case.

If you can't get Viz's manga, jimmy_kud0_tv2 made this thread to list the common errors and misconceptions that resulted from the fan-translations of the case. If you'd like more clarifications regarding this case, you could ask in that thread, I suppose, and hopefully someone would be able to answer your questions.

[Uchiha Shadow]

Unfortunately, for both the manga and the episode, there was never an appropriate fan translation in English. Your best bet would be probably to purchase Viz's volume 30, which has a proper translation (though if you don't live in the US or Canada, I'm not sure it's available for you via apps.). The name changes might be annoying, but for the time being, this seems like the best source for understanding this case.

If you can't get Viz's manga, jimmy_kud0_tv2 made this thread to list the common errors and misconceptions that resulted from the fan-translations of the case. If you'd like more clarifications regarding this case, you could ask in that thread, I suppose, and hopefully someone would be able to answer your questions.

Yeah I can't get the volumes, I already read that thread, but right now school has started so it'll probably take me a while until I change it.

As usual,... haters gonna hate

....................... Who do you mean by that?

[MeiTanteixX]

Unfortunately, for both the manga and the episode, there was never an appropriate fan translation in English. Your best bet would be probably to purchase Viz's volume 30, which has a proper translation (though if you don't live in the US or Canada, I'm not sure it's available for you via apps.). The name changes might be annoying, but for the time being, this seems like the best source for understanding this case.

If you can't get Viz's manga, jimmy_kud0_tv2 made this thread to list the common errors and misconceptions that resulted from the fan-translations of the case. If you'd like more clarifications regarding this case, you could ask in that thread, I suppose, and hopefully someone would be able to answer your questions.

Yeah I can't get the volumes, I already read that thread, but right now school has started so it'll probably take me a while until I change it.

As usual,... haters gonna hate

....................... Who do you mean by that?

Not you, that's for sure,... [emoji14]
So have you considered any significant reasons to why Karasuma Renya would form an Organization? Do you think the drug research and program development have something to do with the hidden treasure that he was looking for?
(If you mentioned it some where, sorry, must have missed it)