Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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TheBlind
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by TheBlind »

I didn't say anything about wages, I said that money is involved no matter what they're into. Even if they are rich, money is still highly involved. You just can't work or do operations for nothing. Rich and powerful people will always want and try to be more rich and more powerful. If money wasn't involved, the B.O. wouldn't even be operating like they currently are right now.
It seems you are missing or dodging the question. I get that you want to drive home that money is involved with the B.O. but you don't need to since its blatantly obvious (episode 128 for example). The debate was why would personalities like Gin and Vermouth, who are highly capable securing a high cash flow based of their own talents continue to follow orders from anyone given what we seen from their personalities. I have offered an example as to why...but you just kept stating money without given any valid points.

Yes we know that money is a part of it, it's an organization, it wouldn't be one if money and power weren't involved, it would be more of a social club then ;D. To be clear, what does the boss have to keep these dominant personalities and power hungry members from trying to take his throne?

Money isn't a valid answer because as you said the rich and powerful seek to expand that power, so they would aspire to become the boss themselves if his only quality was being rich and bald. Then you have personalities like Gin and Vermouth who are obviously not fueled by money, they are following orders without question for some other reason.
The boss must have a method and charisma to captivate an audience to believe his ideal or a form of thinking that cannot be matched by anyone else, point is he must have a unique quality and money isn't a unique quality.
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by sstimson »

as far as controlling Gin, the Boss just makes sure he has people to kill, and may even be blackmailing him as well

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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Summary of everything we know about the boss in one place

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

A long time ago I copied someone's list of theories from somewhere either in the DTCP or Holmes forum and then added on to it, so whoever you are out there who wrote the original I based this on, I'm sorry I forgot who you were, but I would like to give you credit so respond if it's you. I think part of this was originally Solera's, but I'm sure there are others too.

Later Edit: This is outdated. Please refer to here for the most recent version.

Gosho's giveaways
From the extra Detective Conan book:
1. Aoyama had already put the name of the boss somewhere on the manga. (in some form or another I guess…) (I wish I knew when this quote was made whether in the book or in an interview so then we could narrow it down to chapters before a certain point)
2. Aoyama suggested that the true name of the syndicate, which has also never been revealed, is tied to the identity of its leader. If the Black Organization's real name were revealed, everyone would know who its leader is. This seems like a pretty big hint.
3. Aoyama also said that Ai would be really shocked if she discovered that that person is the boss." This is hearsay: someone wrote somewhere that this is what Aoyama said during an interview... (so the person does not trigger the black org sense)
What is it that would convince Ai that it's not "that person"? She obviously knows who this person is, if only she met or heard of that person once, otherwise I don't think it would shock her hearing about who it is. So I came up with 3 possibilities:
1) She trusts this person dearly.
2) The person wouldn’t fit Ai’s expectations
2.1) The person seems "useless" or of unsuitable personality to actually think of them as being a mastermind behind a large organization. This person would probably not trigger Ai’s “black org sense.”
2.2) The boss’s front job or status is unexpected (like the police force or a regular salary person rather than a company boss or political figure)
2.3) Boss is relative of someone close to Ai.
2.4) The person's age is unexpected. Given the aging wonkiness that has gone on we can’t rule out the possibility that the boss could even be a “child” somehow mucked up by drugs or whatnot which would explain why the boss only uses email to avoid allowing people to hear his youthful voice and avoids letting people meet him/her although this behavior can simply be explained as generic cautiousness.
3) She thinks this person is dead. Her parents would be an example of this, although why would they kill their own daughter?

Personality
1) Black org boss uses the song “Seven children/ Seven year old child” to encode his email. It is likely the Boss is probably Japanese, grew up in Japan, or had Japanese parents, relatives, or spouse as this is children’s song not well known elsewhere. Is this the reason for the Org’s black crow dress code? Do the contents of the song reveal something? Does the boss have children? Is a "child"?
2) Uses alcoholic codenames.

Boss’s opinions/relations
1) Vermouth is the boss’s favorite so he allows her some independence and overlooks some of her behavior. The leader can also control a wildcard like Gin pretty well, which makes me wonder what exactly makes Gin so loyal. Certainly not by blackmail (If that was the case it would seem like Gin's personality to hunt the boss down instead), possibly exorbitant amounts of money, but I favor a "debt" or promise of some sort, or other personal reason.
2) The Boss thought Akai Shuuichi could become the org’s silver bullet. (434)

Location
The infamous nanatsu no ko number has a Tottori area code. Gin and Vodka got off at Tottori when they left the train after the briefcase case (no pun intended). There were reports of quite a bit of organized crime in the Tottori area and somewhere in issue 46 Tottori came up again. In short, Tottori and the B.O. show up fairly often in connection to one another. We can't rule out Baker and Hyde cities of course as a good deal of the action takes place there too.
At the Pisco Hyde Hotel case, Gin was given the order to kill Pisco “in person.” (242.14) This info narrows down the location of the boss at that time to somewhere in driving distance of the hotel (forgot where the hotel was {was it Baker hotel?}). Furthermore Gin knew about the photograph implicating Pisco, but he may have learned about after giving the order (maybe from Vermouth at the party)
I can’t say for sure when the order was given. If it was when the boss realized there was an incriminating photograph that hadn’t yet come out in print, the boss had to be in the immediate vicinity of the hotel or at the party personally. If the boss gave the order sometime around when Ai accessed the computer, the boss is in driving distance. I cannot tell precisely the reason Gin was given the order. The order may have possibly been meant for another reason other than Pisco was caught on photograph. It could be because of the password attempts on the computer and the files accessed by Ai raised some flags. (Assuming Pisco was not supposed to be poking around in those files or his behavior was suspicious) Also, Vermouth may have already figured out Ai was at the party and told the boss something about it.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on May 13th, 2013, 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Summary of everything we know about the boss in one plac

Post by Nyarl »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote: A long time ago I copied someone's list of theories from somewhere either in the DTCP or Holmes forum and then added on to it, so whoever you are out there who wrote the original I based this on, I'm sorry I forgot who you were, but I would like to give you credit so respond if it's you. I think part of this was originally Solera's, but I'm sure there are others too.

Gosho's giveaways
{...}
2. Aoyama suggested that the true name of the syndicate, which has also never been revealed, is tied to the identity of its leader. If the Black Organization's real name were revealed, everyone would know who its leader is. This seems like a pretty big hint.
{...}
Karasuma Ren'ya (30.4-7/episode 219) fits for the raven motif hinted at by Nanatsu no Ko (and movie 13). He probably named the Org. after himself (or took his name from the Org., which would make the mistranslations of his name in the scanslation amusingly appropriate), since he was really fond of ravens (or was a narcissist who liked symbols referencing his name). He should be dead, though, unless the Raven Society(?) already had some effective means for longevity. (A descendant of his running the Org. using another name wouldn't fit that hint, unless there's an obvious karasu pun the Japanese audience should know that I don't.)
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:{...}
At the Bisik/Hotel case, Gin was given the order to kill Bisik “in person.â€
Last edited by Nyarl on December 28th, 2008, 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
é»’ã
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by Quiet Lurker »

Is this topic still ongoing?  :o

It's obvious that the head of the Black Organization is none other than Dr. Hiroshi Agasa!!  ;D

Lets look at the clues so far in the series:
1. The Black Organization is fond of using names of detectives as passwords and codenames (APTX 4869 etc.)
Dr. Agasa is a big mystery novel fan: he named Ai after female detectives. (Vol 18 File 9)

2. Dr. Agasa is an explosives expert as shown by his invention "The Tropical Rainbow" (Vol 24 File 1-2).
The Black Organization's weapon of choice? Explosives. (The train bomb in Vol 4 File 4-6, the case involving Tequila Vol 12 File 4-6, and cleaning up after Pisco's blunder Vol 24 File 11)

3. The circumstances behind Pisco's death. (Vol 24 File 7-11) Once Pisco's identity have been revealed, he was executed by Gin before the photograph even made it to the papers. Note that Gin received the call from the Boss when both Ai and Conan were in the cellar away from Dr. Agasa.
Furthermore, Dr. Agasa knows exactly when Conan has figured out Pisco's identity and the significance of the handkerchief left at the scene, (which both Vermouth and Gin later commented on).

4. The phone number of the boss of the Black Organization is the Seven Children song. Let's face it, Agasa likes children so much that he doesn't mind getting taken advantage of by brats like Ayumi, Genta and Mitsuhiko.  :P

5. Dr. Agasa claims to have known both of Ai's parents, which would not be a lie if he is the head of the Black Organization.

Of course, crackpot theories supported by flimsy evidence is not worth the pipe they are smoked on if there is no motive, so lets add some of those:
1. Sure, Conan and Ai are threats to the Black Organization, but Dr. Agasa can get rid of them anytime. (Keep your friends close and enemies closer etc.)
2. Having Conan track down clues about the Black Organization by supporting an incompetent fool like Kogoro is an ideal way for locating competent allies (and in the Black Organization's case, dangerous foes). Head of the Black Organization Dr. Agasa is deviously using Conan to scout for potential threats.
3. As well being trusted by both the Metropolitan Police and the FBI gives the Black Organization a significant advantage in outmaneuvering its foes. (i.e. Through Conan, Agasa (and the Black Organization) knows Rena is a CIA agent, but will keep it under wraps until he use this information to trap all FBI agents  :o)
4. "I don't even have to pay her anymore." Ai is continuing her previous work for free, she will remain alive so long as she's useful.

Hence, Dr. Agasa IS the head of the Black Organization and one of anime's ultimate chessmasters.
With that level of deviousness, even Gin must cower in fear.  8)


On a serious note, maybe we should tone down the number of theories until we get more clues. Coming up with wild theories is fun for a while, but seven months is a tad too long. :-\
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by Quiet Lurker »

Ocelot wrote: There is just one problem with your theory. Why are they sending a new agent to find Ai? This doesn't make any sense since he is always with them. Why is Gin searching for her? It's a waste of time. Another thing: Pisco knew the Boss and he said that her parents are dead so it can't be Ai's father. He was about to kill her so i doubt that he was lying.
You cannot be a Chessmaster without performing a gambit or two.

This is a typical Xanatos Gambit, the FBI knows the identities of both Gin and Vermouth, however, the Black Organization does NOT know much about the FBI other than Akai Shuichi. By dangling Sherry out as bait (and sending out his agents to draw attention to Sherry), Mastermind Agasa can distract the FBI and draw them out into the open. (And he succeeded, Jodie and Akai were both busy looking for Sherry in the beginning, while the Black Organization was conducting assassinations.)  ;)


If you haven't realized by now, my "theory" is to illustrate the unreasonableness and pointlessness of rampant speculation.  ::)
Chapters involving the Black Organization make up less than 10% of the chapters, we simply don't have enough information.

Of course, if you want to debate this bogus theory, be my guest.  ;D
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by Rellik »

Quiet Lurker's the head of BO :P
TheBlind
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by TheBlind »

sstimson wrote: as far as controlling Gin, the Boss just makes sure he has people to kill, and may even be blackmailing him as well

Later
;D ;D Yeah giving Gin bodies to shoot at is a perfect way of controlling him. If he was blackmailing Gin which...is a a very long stretch, I don't think anyone would argue that Gin would just kill him and take his place. A Win Win. You reasons actually give Gin reasons to kill the B.O. boss.
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by Kite »

I get the impression Gin is more the sort of kind who needs a real challenge now and then. Killing is his everyday job, but I think he gets his kicks from fighting equal or stronger foes than him. The boss is probably someone to whom he looks up and knows for a very, very long time to have established such a loyal relationship. I don't think he's someone who trusts someone else very fast (enough examples where he immediately holds a gun against the head of another member of the BO the moment he thinks something is suspicious, no matter how small), so the boss and he need to have a long-lasting relationship which is focused on trust. Gin ain't the kind of guy to threaten or tempt, he seems to have nothing to lose except for his own life, which is an attribute that makes him one of the most dangerous persons walking on earth in the world of DC. Plus his intelligence must be fairly high. Not an enemy you'd really want to have. No wonder Shinichi plays the fake death tactic against him.
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

One thing that has been getting on my nerves for a while now is the conspicuous absence of anything pertaining to Kogoro's family background. He's a main character and absolutely nothing has been mentioned even in passing about any of his kin beyond Ran. Considering the length of the manga and that character history stories are otherwise quite common, I believe this omission is intentional. I can think of three situations that would account for the censorship.

Later Edit: This is outdated. Please refer to here for the most recent version.

1) Someone(s) in Kogoro's family has a critical connection or position in the Org. I do not support the theory that Kogoro himself is part of the Crow Corps, but with the family name "Mouri", and its difficult-to-ignore resemblance to "Moriarty" from the Sherlock canon, I think that this theory concerning relatives on the dark side holds thematic appeal.
2) Someone(s) in Kogoro's family was a victim of the Org, and that the circumstances/mystery behind it are a major clue to one of the central mysteries like the identity of the boss, or the org's name, etc.
3) Kogoro's background relations are not important or non-existent. I think this explanation is weak because it goes against Gosho's style. The vast majority of the main and secondary characters have had some member of their family brought up, often as participants or suspects in cases, as motivation for why the character is where they are now, or simply mentioned in passing. The idea that Gosho would ignore using Kogoro's family for any case/plot purposes without a genuinely good reason for (as of now) 676 chapters is unreasonable.

   The reasons why a relative of Kogoro can't be introduced too early could be one of the following:
a) It would be too big of a hint.
b) It would call unwanted attention and suspicion where Gosho does not yet want it.
c) It serves as a major plot key which will enable Conan to solve a very important mystery.
 Given that this censorship on Kogoro's kin has been going on since the very beginning of the manga, it would be logical to assume that the reason is pertinent to the overarching mysteries - namely what is the true nature of the Org, who is the boss, and what is its goal.

In short, I believe it is reasonable to assume that Kogoro has (or had) one or more plot-significant family members who have (or had) vital connections to the Black Org, as either victims or members.
Last edited by Chekhov MacGuffin on April 20th, 2010, 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by jason »

You know, I just came up with a theory over the weekend which could be interesting, and I don't think anybody has thought of this before. We all know that Gosho said that the Boss has appeared in some "FORM", and we all notice that all members of the Black Organization have alcohol codenames. Then I thought that if all members have codenames of alcoholic drinks, MAYBE the Boss has a codename of an alcoholic drink as well, which could be the key to MAYBE unlocking his/her identity. When I was watching the dubbed version of DC, I was watching Episode 49 (The Diplomat Murder Case: Part 2), and towards the end of it, Heiji said that Bai Ganr (the Chinese Liquor that's also in Ai's APTX 4869 antidote) is stronger than Gin and Vodka (I'm not sure if that similar line was said in the original version of the manga and/or anime). Then that line hit me, maybe Bai Ganr could be the codename for the Boss, and that drink also falls into what Gosho said about what "form" the Boss appeared in the series.

That's my theory, but this COULD be a key to possibly unlocking the identity of the Boss.
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by Rellik »

woot the boss is chinese :P
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by jason »

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say the Boss is Chinese, but possibly a foreigner at least or not.
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by tiffishungry »

common sense
why would a dad leave his so like that?
i mean its really unreasonable
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Re: Yusaku Kudo Is The Head Of Black Organization (I guess)

Post by shadabad »

Umm few days ago I watched the episode where Conan met Ai-chan's sister, she mentioned that the black organisation is a group of crows.. =P Maybe the name of the leader is crow?
*searching for a wine name relating to dark, black or crow*
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