Ran's role changed? Other's too?

[Eve]

who cares about Ran

i wanna know who okiya subaru is  :P

i hope it's bourbon

ok.... that's my opinion, too.

LOL... I am too, actually XDDDD

[Nyarl]

Then there was the Ran that broke down crying and went into hiding during the Tottori Spider Mansion case while previous cases had established that she would jump out windows, jump on moving cars, run like crazy for help, and etc. to save someone in danger...not hide & cry.

Yelling, "Kazuha!" is a strange way to start to "hide". I didn't even notice she gave up searching for so long to cry until I checked after your complaining and noticed the last time we see her searching was by the truck, where she was still yelling for Kazuha... she'd "hide" right next to where she'd been yelling? I really doubt that. (Heh, and if I want to be really stubborn I'd claim it's just coincidence she's by the truck when Kogoro finds her, and she actually wore herself out searching frantically (if poorly) while the detectives had their tea break.)

I still think the difference here is that she was blaming herself for putting a person in danger, and she will freeze-up when she's guilt tripping or worried about making things worse (same examples as the last time we argued about this,  ::) ).

Has she ever done anything in any arc that's remotely useful?  I can say like...one or maybe two times shes actually done something important

More than half of the "main plot" stuff before Haibara was introduced (hell, maybe before Jodie was introduced) was Ran but the BO stuff is so much more interesting so naturally that became the main plot instead. And they did a good job at the Shinichi and Ran relationship, especially considering how her character has no right not being horrible (but she isn't horrible thanks to Gosho's genius...although I do think she should have had better character development (to say the least)). At this point, I think she doesn't take away anything from the series, and is used as a character to get some point across to the audiance about a case (the end of episode 528 comes to mind)  or the next plot twist revealed.

With that being said, you kind of have a point. The entire Desperate Revival Arc and the Revival miniarc pratically revolved around her but she only (eventually) realized where he saw Shuichi originally, accidently discovered Jodie's pictures of Shinichi and protected Haibara, noticed a couple of things about Eisuke (looks like Mizunashi Rena) and also is an idiot who revealed that Shinichi is alive to Okiya Subaru, who I think is Bourbon. Actually, she did more than I expected. Huh.

How about saving serial killer!Vermouth in back story? The “reason isn't needed to save livesâ€

[TheBlind]

Then there was the Ran that broke down crying and went into hiding during the Tottori Spider Mansion case while previous cases had established that she would jump out windows, jump on moving cars, run like crazy for help, and etc. to save someone in danger...not hide & cry.

Yelling, "Kazuha!" is a strange way to start to "hide". I didn't even notice she gave up searching for so long to cry until I checked after your complaining and noticed the last time we see her searching was by the truck, where she was still yelling for Kazuha... she'd "hide" right next to where she'd been yelling? I really doubt that. (Heh, and if I want to be really stubborn I'd claim it's just coincidence she's by the truck when Kogoro finds her, and she actually wore herself out searching frantically (if poorly) while the detectives had their tea break.)

I guess were are going to continue this argument where we left off last time,(least the balance is back)

"Ran did search for Kazuha but after they cut back to Mouri and the gang, Ran was hiding. There was no gray area to say "oh maybe she was looking for Kazuha in that spot or she found a clue" because she was in between a truck and wall with her back turned to the truck(the outside). So I think they made it clear she was hiding from something(and really did not want to be found) since Mouri would of not seen her(due to her also squatting, something typical with young children in that situation) if it wasn't for her whimpering.

Like I said in my first post, normal Ran would be crying her eyes out and be near exhaustion looking for Kazuha and when it proved that she could not find her, she would look for anyone to help her. The one thing I personally think she wouldn't do was what she did, give up easily and hid due to a combination of fear(ghost...) and guilt, while she knew someone was in danger."

Like I said before, there is no reason for Ran to be inthe position she was found in(bottom middle panel) that supports she was still looking for Kazuha. The area she was in placed her face directly in front of a wall and her back in front of a truck while crouching, this is a hiding spot(and a common act in young children). Like the first time we had this dance, I'm not saying Ran just magically decided to hide but after not finding Kazuha, she most likely went on a guilt trip which lead her to have normal reaction of just wanting to stop everything..but thing is, this isn't normal for Ran. She's shown she would of done a million more things(continue running around, starting yelling at the top of her lungs for help, find Heiji/Mouri/Conan/anyone) before letting herself be found crying in a position that could be even be interpreted as hiding while a friend(sometimes even total strangers) was in danger.

Another thing that adds that she gave up on her search(permanently or momentarily) and went on a guilt trip in her hiding spot was that she did not react to the maid's voice or her father's voice until he was directly in front of her shoving a flashlight in her face. A person that isn't trying to hide would of reacted much sooner, especially if it was her father because if it wasn't for her heavy breathing/whimpering, Mouri would of never noticed her.

[Obscure]

True. Almost everyone's role have changed , Ran used to play such an important role , but now she's just the girl that appear in the opening and ending themes, Detective Kids used to be the annoying kids the "wannabe detectives" who follow conan around, now they are the "famous" detective boys who are solving many cases and always appear with agasa and the police. Haibara had a small role at first but then BAM ! she  appears almost always , but we dont see her in recent chapters alot i wonder why  , oh and agasa , he used to be the one making a solution for conan's "problem"  but now he's like a babysitter for the kids , and the guy taking care of haibara , and the guy haibara is taking care of.

[James Rye]

True. Almost everyone's role have changed , Ran used to play such an important role , but now she's just the girl that appear in the opening and ending themes, Detective Kids used to be the annoying kids the "wannabe detectives" who follow conan around, now they are the "famous" detective boys who are solving many cases and always appear with agasa and the police. Haibara had a small role at first but then BAM ! she  appears almost always , but we dont see her in recent chapters alot i wonder why  , oh and agasa , he used to be the one making a solution for conan's "problem"  but now he's like a babysitter for the kids , and the guy taking care of haibara , and the guy haibara is taking care of.

Lol´d about the last phrase, good one.

Are we done now with this topic?

[Misztina]

Getting bored? XD

About Agasa: he is still a good sidekick character, but Conan less and less often informs him or asks for his help. :/ I guess that's because the situation is getting more dangerous.

[kirite]

Are we done now with this topic?

Oi oi, if you're not interested in this topic then you don't have to post in it xD.  Afterall the title of this thread it called "Ran's role changed? Other's too?" which is what people are discussing.

Getting bored? XD
About Agasa: he is still a good sidekick character, but Conan less and less often informs him or asks for his help. :/ I guess that's because the situation is getting more dangerous.

Agasa at the beginning:

*grabs Shinichi by the shoulders*  YOU MUST NEVER TELL ANYONE WHO YOU ARE!  And oh here's a cool gadget for you to fight bad guys with 8D.

Well since Haibara took over that role of helpful reminder and Conan hasn't have any new gadgets so... xD

Still I think it's so awesome how he takes care of Haibara and brings the DB to camping and stuff.  It's not everyday you'll see an inventor take in scientist from crime organisations and then let kids boss him around in his free time.  It's also hillarious how patient Haibara is with his antic (takes away his food with a warning glare).

<3 Agasa

----

Oh yeah The Blind and Nyarl are (kinda) continuing their conversations.  I always enjoy reading anything from you two the most ^^. 

[AICHAN]

True. Almost everyone's role have changed , Ran used to play such an important role , but now she's just the girl that appear in the opening and ending themes, Detective Kids used to be the annoying kids the "wannabe detectives" who follow conan around, now they are the "famous" detective boys who are solving many cases and always appear with agasa and the police. Haibara had a small role at first but then BAM ! she  appears almost always , but we dont see her in recent chapters alot i wonder why  , oh and agasa , he used to be the one making a solution for conan's "problem"  but now he's like a babysitter for the kids , and the guy taking care of haibara , and the guy haibara is taking care of.

looooooool! 100% agree with you in the last phrase!

[ranger]

Ran was just interesting, when she had bath-scenes.

lolz wow

is Agasa a millionaire or something?  He always buys shit and takes the kids on vacations (probably like 100+ camping trips by now)

[Eve]

Ran was just interesting, when she had bath-scenes.

lolz wow

is Agasa a millionaire or something?  He always buys shit and takes the kids on vacations (probably like 100+ camping trips by now)

Well... he's an inventor... and apparently quite a famous one, so I'm pretty sure he's quite rich... plus he doesn't need to spend much for his family, so of course he'd spend it on the kids XDDDD

but we dont see her in recent chapters a lot i wonder why 

I think it's because recently she's investigating Okiriya *Or I am hoping so XDDD*

[soratothamax]

My personal opinion is that all the characters can't seem TOO important, so they won't outshine Shinichi. In actuality, Shinichi/Conan is not a very important character to the main plot himself. The BO doesn't know him, the FBI doesn't need him, and he can't create his own antidote.....

But because he is a detective, and he took the antidote, because of his curiosity, he fits into the DC world of detectives, criminals, police enforcement, and scientists. Therefore making him an important character in the universe. The BO can't be taken down without a good detective, though with Akai, that wasn't needed either. That is why I think Goshyo "killed" Akai . He makes the police and FBI not nearly as smart as the BO so Shinichi can be the one to bring them down.

Although Ai's character has continued to stay static, she was part of the BO, which is the main plot. Really, the cases aren't the main plot. They were designed so Shinichi could find his main target:the BO. So Ai even if not evolving now, will have to evolve later. Really, Ai has yet to explain more about her past, has yet to express her feelings about Conan or really the dBoys, and has yet to reveal her crimes in the BO....lately she's only been the d.i.d, but not for long. she has to find evidence from the BO in order to get the data for the antidote, and in turn, it will make her reveal her past.....Ran doesn't have nearly as much importance. Ai is the most important female heroine in the story. All the other females are just....there.

Ran isn't involved with cases that much, neither is she apart of the BO that much. Anything she ever gets involved with will be because of Shinichi or Kogoro. Her own importance is based off of the importance of others....I feel if she was going to be a heroine, she should've been involved with the BO in some large way. But Goshyo makes all of his heroines pointless...the only problem any of his heroines have is telling the "childhood friend" they love them.....which is not the main plot at all.

Shinichi loving Ran and the side-line criminal cases are part of the story, but not the main focus of the plot. The main focus is the BO. I feel Goshyo wants to put emphasis on characters that will move the plot a long and get him closer to turning him back to Shinichi. Ran is not capable of doing that because her role with the bO is only with one character, Vermouth, who also knows Shinichi and his mom and could really care less about Ran. Ran is really as important as the DB. Any of them can be kidnapped, especially if the BO finds out they were hanging with Sherry....Ran is only important because of Shinichi's problems, and really the DBoys are only important because of Shinichi and Haibara's problems. Though the DBs fit into the DC world because they are detectives and contributed to Shinichi finding the BO.

Ran used to be important in the beginning when Shinichi needed a house to stay in as Conan, and he needed a way to solve cases so he can track down the BO. I doubt Kogoro would've let him stay on his own, Ran worked him in. But with the addition of Haibara, he has already found someone who could help him find links to the BO, because ever since she came, the BO has been lurking around the city, and her strange feelings have pointed out all the suspicious characters, accurate or not. So, really now he can stay with Agasa if he wanted.....most of the BO action will more than likely happen in that area anyway, which is the main plot. Ran won't get important until the end, when Shinichi confesses.

Being kidnapped will not make Ran important. Ayumi probably will get kidnapped too for being Ai's friend.....they are the D.I.D.s It's just ashame when Ran is supposed to be the "heroine."

[kirite]

My personal opinion is that all the characters can't seem TOO important, so they won't outshine Shinichi. In actuality, Shinichi/Conan is not a very important character to the main plot himself. The BO doesn't know him, the FBI doesn't need him, and he can't create his own antidote.....

But because he is a detective, and he took the antidote, because of his curiosity, he fits into the DC world of detectives, criminals, police enforcement, and scientists. Therefore making him an important character in the universe. The BO can't be taken down without a good detective, though with Akai, that wasn't needed either. That is why I think Goshyo "killed" Akai . He makes the police and FBI not nearly as smart as the BO so Shinichi can be the one to bring them down.

Although Ai's character has continued to stay static, she was part of the BO, which is the main plot. Really, the cases aren't the main plot. They were designed so Shinichi could find his main target:the BO. So Ai even if not evolving now, will have to evolve later. Really, Ai has yet to explain more about her past, has yet to express her feelings about Conan or really the dBoys, and has yet to reveal her crimes in the BO....lately she's only been the d.i.d, but not for long. she has to find evidence from the BO in order to get the data for the antidote, and in turn, it will make her reveal her past.....Ran doesn't have nearly as much importance. Ai is the most important female heroine in the story. All the other females are just....there.

I don't agree with your point about Shinichi actually.  It's not everyday you come across people with his level of intelligence and perception.  Given he's not the only one but even in a contest of detective he's the fastest when it comes to the correct conclusion, and in addition he tries to understand the people involved and tries to help them the best he can (Araid first case, Spider mansion case, etc...).  Unlike Hattori and Hakuba Shinichi doesn't only have the observational skills of a detective but also a sense to help everyone.

In a way Vermouth further elevated his importance by basically saying "they've been waiting for someone like him for a long time".  Akai Shuichi is also "a silver bullet" but Vermouth doesn't see him as "the one". 

I'm also curious as to your claim that when Haibara looks for the cure she'll reveal her past.  What do you mean by that?

[soratothamax]

I don't agree with your point about Shinichi actually.  It's not everyday you come across people with his level of intelligence and perception.  Given he's not the only one but even in a contest of detective he's the fastest when it comes to the correct conclusion, and in addition he tries to understand the people involved and tries to help them the best he can (Araid first case, Spider mansion case, etc...).  Unlike Hattori and Hakuba Shinichi doesn't only have the observational skills of a detective but also a sense to help everyone.

In a way Vermouth further elevated his importance by basically saying "they've been waiting for someone like him for a long time".  Akai Shuichi is also "a silver bullet" but Vermouth doesn't see him as "the one".  

I'm also curious as to your claim that when Haibara looks for the cure she'll reveal her past.  What do you mean by that?

Well, with Shinichi, yes he's the best and the fastest at it, but that's just it too. Goshyo has to kind of make those characters like Akai seem not as important so that Shinichi can be the best. Really, Akai is more important than Shinichi because "that person" knows him, he's Gin's rival, and he was part of the BO, and is part of the FBI. Because he's more important than Shinichi, Goshyo fears he will outshine Shinichi. So he makes Akai "lack" in something Shinichi has: the ability to be one moment faster in deductions. Also, he gets "rid" of Akai for a moment, so that Akai will not be able to help the FBI, and Conan will eventually be the only "silver bullet." It is Goshyo's tactic for making Shinichi the best character ever....and as a result, many potentially good characters end up doing less than what they were capable doing. for instance....

Ran can fight! She shouldn't nearly be as inaccurate as she is with a black belt, and fainting all the time. But if she was TOO good, Shinichi wouldn't need to protect her AT ALL, which his saving her life is the only way he shows his love for her......but really, Ran should be whooping! But Goshyo doesn't want that quality to outshine Shinichi, who takes down everybody only with a soccer ball.....Really, Ran can fight, and he's weaker than her without his ball.....but Goshyo doesn't want it to seem that way.

Another example...
Akai Shuichi is obviously a skilled FBI member, who has been in the BO, and has enough experience to know the BO's every move...and yet in the Clash of Red and Black, couldn't decipher faster than Shinichi, who had no previous direct experience with the BO, neither knows how the BO works. And Shinichi is only a high school detective...and yet, Akai was not as "fast" at deducing as Shinichi. Even though, it is clear Akai has proven he could jump to the moment even before Shinichi, like in the Target is Kogoro Mouri case, he is still not as "fast" as Shinichi...but it seems deliberate so Goshyo won't have those characters TOO important as to outshine Shinichi.
It is the same with the police force, and the other FBI members, who should be better than Shinichi.

But in actuality, Shinichi isn't really as important as Akai or any BO or FBI member. He's just the helper who is "making" himself involved. It isn't his job, as he isn't a solid detective yet. He's just some teenager making himself involved in the case because of his curiosity and sense of justice...and occasional will to show-off....that's how he got in the fix in the first place. No one asked him to solve the case...

Vermouth saying that "Shinichi was the real silver bullet" made it obvious that Goshyo's intention was to make it in a way that Akai didn't OUTSHINE Shinichi, no matter how much Akai SHOULD be better than Shinichi at this, Goshyo won't let that happen...which is what I was saying....He's trying hard to make Shinichi better than Akai, and prove Shinichi's importance.

but the result of trying to make Shinichi "on top" all the time, it results in making everyone else suck at something they should be good at, and it happens everytime any character is faced with Shinichi.

Does that make sense? hope it does...

As far as Haibara, once she decides to look for the cure through the BO, she might discover that something in her past is the key to her finding the cure, or the key to her taking down the org, or the key to the whole mystery behind "that person." I think the problem so far with Haibara finding a solid cure is that she isn't look where she should look first: in her own family background....
Haibara grew up in the BO. There is no way that her past has nothing to do with the BO in a large way...unless, ... Goshyo pulls one of those "I don't want Ai to outshine Shinichi" numbers...and decides he's just going to make Haibara keep quiet about everything until the end...after Shinichi has find everything out already....

[Nyarl]

Ran can fight! She shouldn't nearly be as inaccurate as she is with a black belt, and fainting all the time. But if she was TOO good, Shinichi wouldn't need to protect her AT ALL, which his saving her life is the only way he shows his love for her......but really, Ran should be whooping! But Goshyo doesn't want that quality to outshine Shinichi, who takes down everybody only with a soccer ball.....Really, Ran can fight, and he's weaker than her without his ball.....but Goshyo doesn't want it to seem that way.

Uh, huh. Ran [url=http://www.onemanga.com/Detective_Conan/493/18/]“whoops itâ€

[TheBlind]

Hide from the world in guilt, I could go along with, but it wasn't fear of monsters or whoever got Kazuha. (Still not sure she's really supposed to be crouching, is that her elbow or knee in the middle bottom panel?)  

I think she was there for a while, too. But, doesn't her being so sensitive and conscientious that it can be a liability in dangerous situations kind of justify Shin'ichi's reason for keeping the secret? (I think it's a vain attempt to keep her from changing/growing up, but if Ran really is that sensitive it's at least more justified than Haibara's stated reason.)

Heh and of course the real reason Ran didn't search effectively or ask for help was that Aoyama needed to give the culprit time to do the elaborate "web" for Kazuha. But, IMO, we'd need to see her in a situation where she really can push aside guilt until it's safe to take time to reflect before declaring this absolutely OOC. (OMG Ran is emo! She should be cold and professional like Motoko Kusanagi or she sucks as a heroine! Nah, as long as she's eventually allowed to grow form her expereinces, rather than continue to collect more and more plot convenient weaknesses.)

It does but it also contradicts many of her past actions, same actions that have Heiji thinking that she's strong enough to handle the truth & Haibara no longer doubting how strong she is. Two Ran's exist in DC.

Yeah the real reason was of course for the case but it could of been done in so many better ways then the one chosen like the usual "Ran appears just after the important conversation claiming something is wrong". As for Ran learning from her experiences, that would be good, but every time you think she's grown it usually results in a plot weakness forced on to her by Gosho.