Ran's role changed? Other's too?

[Misztina]

Hm... even Akemi told Ai that she should find a boyfriend. Maybe Gosho tries to imply that private life is more important than carrreer? That's kinda against carreerist women. That's kinda wrong in one way.
Maybe Gosho isn't fond of modern women and this is his crying out for old-type girls. Then again Eri is kind of a careerist woman, but her reason to be like that is still uncertain.

Nevertheless he often tries to make his female characters look independent or make them to try to find independence. Interesting that even Jodie, an American woman who seemed kinda independent on the first look, in the Halloween Parety and after that she became heavily dependent (though not that much as Ran or Ayumi) on Akai. Hm...

[AICHAN]

Hm... even Akemi told Ai that she should find a boyfriend. Maybe Gosho tries to imply that private life is more important than carrreer? That's kinda against carreerist women. That's kinda wrong in one way.
Maybe Gosho isn't fond of modern women and this is his crying out for old-type girls. Then again Eri is kind of a careerist woman, but her reason to be like that is still uncertain.

Nevertheless he often tries to make his female characters look independent or make them to try to find independence. Interesting that even Jodie, an American woman who seemed kinda independent on the first look, in the Halloween Parety and after that she became heavily dependent (though not that much as Ran or Ayumi) on Akai. Hm...

yeah,i completly agree with what you said,concerning gosho's vision of women ,i was a bit surprised to see Jodie so dependant on Shuu,ok she might love him but still...

[soratothamax]

Hm... even Akemi told Ai that she should find a boyfriend. Maybe Gosho tries to imply that private life is more important than carrreer? That's kinda against carreerist women. That's kinda wrong in one way.
Maybe Gosho isn't fond of modern women and this is his crying out for old-type girls. Then again Eri is kind of a careerist woman, but her reason to be like that is still uncertain.

Nevertheless he often tries to make his female characters look independent or make them to try to find independence. Interesting that even Jodie, an American woman who seemed kinda independent on the first look, in the Halloween Parety and after that she became heavily dependent (though not that much as Ran or Ayumi) on Akai. Hm...

You're right. I believe though, he focuses on dependency and naivety with young school girls. Older women have had a harder life and know how the world is, so they are not so dependent on anyone. This includes Haibara since she's older.....even by a year. She is on the brink of womanhood. So those women who are beyond the age of childhood tend to act in a way that is more independent because they have more experience in the world and have acquired a life.....
Also, I see that there is a difference between Goshyo's portrayal of American heroines (Bo not included), and Goshyo's portrayal of Japanese heroines......

And I noticed that many people parallel in looks, which I think means they act a like (Akemi and Ran and Ayumi have similar hair color and eyes, Shinichi looks like Kaitou Kid and acts as a different Heiji, Haibara and Jodie-Sensei, Kobayashi and Satou, etc, I think Sonoko and Kahzuya are alike...they are both loud lol)

[Schillok]

Those particular girls named above only have one goal: to happily live with the ones they love

I don't see where this is any different from Haibaras goal. Or anyone elses (excluding BO). Of course, everyone wants to happily live with the ones they love. Even myself.
Carreer ambitions, marriage, friends, hobbies and interests, justice, whatever - they are all only to support this goal and add to your own happyness.
So even saying those girls all express the same goal can include very different means to achieve it.

Ayumi is still very young - why should she already have decided on her future carreer? Her driving force is curiosity, to learn and experience as many things as possible and her believe in the good of people and the world. Her interest in Conan has much less influence on what she is doing or how she is thinking than you tried to present.
Ran might be in the age where she has to decide what she wants to become in the future - but she had shown at multiple occasions that she takes studying quite seriously. Sure, we were never told what she wants to study for - but that doesn't mean that she is not interested in anything but marrying Shinichi when he returns. It just mean it was not neccessary to tell us what her other dreams for the future are. Not to mention her interest in history or martial arts, which suggest there is more on her mind than following Shinichi around.
Kazuha... well, she is just the girl traveling with Heiji most of the time, there was barely anything mentioned about what she is doing when she isn't around the dark-skinned detective. But really... do you think that her role in this detecive manga gets improved if we knew her (other) future plans? She has almost no impact on the storyline, she just serves as motivation for Heiji or to create (comic) situations because of their "relationship".

Maybe it is true and their different interests are not expressed adequatly, with a strong bias towards "boy-related" subjects. But on the other hand none of them would really matter for the story, would it? [Imagine Sonoko being heavily interested in rocket science - portrayed perfectly so it fits into her character, mmakig perfectly sense and not because of a boy. Would it really improve the Manga? And would fleshing out that interest really justify spending 3 chapters on it (Without including a normal, Conan-typical mystery)? It might help to characterize Sonoko a bit better... but wouldn't do much else. Except to evoke the need for a similar treatment for about 20 more regulary-occuring characters...]

[Mahjong]

I actually thought for a long time now that Ran just gave up on trying to convince Shinichi to tell her the truth because he would ALWAYS find ways to deceive her, but I'm positive she is quite sure Conan=Shinichi.
Thus she doesn't get screentime in that matter and you could say she is unimportant now because Conan isn't trying as much to be Shinichi, but I am sure she get's her BIG role.

I'm actually kinda hopping she will be kidnapped by the BO at the end or something - just imagine Shinichi/Conan in that situation!  8)

But for now Aoyama is propably forgetting some of the possibilities of his characters...like he has way too much and tries to show them all regularly and due to that the main characters don't get as much screentime as they deserve, plotwise that is.

[soratothamax]

Those particular girls named above only have one goal: to happily live with the ones they love

I don't see where this is any different from Haibaras goal. Or anyone elses (excluding BO). Of course, everyone wants to happily live with the ones they love. Even myself.
Carreer ambitions, marriage, friends, hobbies and interests, justice, whatever - they are all only to support this goal and add to your own happyness.
So even saying those girls all express the same goal can include very different means to achieve it.

Ayumi is still very young - why should she already have decided on her future carreer? Her driving force is curiosity, to learn and experience as many things as possible and her believe in the good of people and the world. Her interest in Conan has much less influence on what she is doing or how she is thinking than you tried to present.
Ran might be in the age where she has to decide what she wants to become in the future - but she had shown at multiple occasions that she takes studying quite seriously. Sure, we were never told what she wants to study for - but that doesn't mean that she is not interested in anything but marrying Shinichi when he returns. It just mean it was not neccessary to tell us what her other dreams for the future are. Not to mention her interest in history or martial arts, which suggest there is more on her mind than following Shinichi around.
Kazuha... well, she is just the girl traveling with Heiji most of the time, there was barely anything mentioned about what she is doing when she isn't around the dark-skinned detective. But really... do you think that her role in this detecive manga gets improved if we knew her (other) future plans? She has almost no impact on the storyline, she just serves as motivation for Heiji or to create (comic) situations because of their "relationship".

Maybe it is true and their different interests are not expressed adequatly, with a strong bias towards "boy-related" subjects. But on the other hand none of them would really matter for the story, would it? [Imagine Sonoko being heavily interested in rocket science - portrayed perfectly so it fits into her character, mmakig perfectly sense and not because of a boy. Would it really improve the Manga? And would fleshing out that interest really justify spending 3 chapters on it (Without including a normal, Conan-typical mystery)? It might help to characterize Sonoko a bit better... but wouldn't do much else. Except to evoke the need for a similar treatment for about 20 more regulary-occuring characters...]

This is my point exactly. Their goals and achievements have nothing to do with the plot, and can not contribute much to the plot. Nothing about them is necessary except the fact they are "swooning" over the guy who fits the story. That barely fits into the plot, but it does by a landslide. To me, those characters are not important enough to move the story along. They will move it slightly, but hinder it in a way too. We're heading towards more and more BO arcs, and judging by Clash of Red and Black, and others, none of them can contribute much. I just think Ran and Kahzuya serve as motivation for Shinichi, if you put it that way. What else does Ran serve her purpose?

Like I said before, they don't fit into the DC world where everyone has goals and ambitions that pertain to regular cases and BO cases such as scientists, creating a inventions, detective, police, etc. They are just school girls. Yea, it's great to have normal characters....but thats what normal characters are....unimportant. They are not meant to drive the story, they just sit a long for the ride.

Those girls have only been specified to have ONE goal. That is narrow-minded. It results in narrow-minded characters. And they've been narrow-minded so long, that it would seem weird if they showed up with more development.
Other characters, yea, have that same goal, but other goals too, so they don't appear as narrow-minded. As i said, Haibara's other goal is to find the antidote. It is not a goal she chose, but a goal she feels she has to do. Goals are not necessarily what the character wants to do in the future, but the goal of the character created. For instance, Shinichi's goal is to find the BO, get the antidote, return home to his woman, and became a famous detective again. Agasa doesn't have any goals, but his ambition is to invent great inventions. It's not the same as anyone else's ambition. Haibara's goal is to create the APTX, so she can live a normal life, and live happily with her friends, and possibly find out her past along the way or finish her father's research......which has been hinted.
The girls mentioned above have the same goal and ambition, which is the same as everybody else's. NOTHING ELSE was ever mentioned. And it's too late to mention it now, and develop them now, with all of the important characters rolling in, like people associated with the BO. Their character goals are all the same.

Ran may have future goals, but the audience doesn't know that. They've never specified it. So, it makes her a bland character, with no other motive but to marry Shinichi. That is what she comes off as. She has no other goals for herself and her own future in DC. She has no other role unless it involves him. She is his "cheerleader" as I said before.

[soratothamax]

I actually thought for a long time now that Ran just gave up on trying to convince Shinichi to tell her the truth because he would ALWAYS find ways to deceive her, but I'm positive she is quite sure Conan=Shinichi.
Thus she doesn't get screentime in that matter and you could say she is unimportant now because Conan isn't trying as much to be Shinichi, but I am sure she get's her BIG role.

I'm actually kinda hopping she will be kidnapped by the BO at the end or something - just imagine Shinichi/Conan in that situation!  8)

But for now Aoyama is propably forgetting some of the possibilities of his characters...like he has way too much and tries to show them all regularly and due to that the main characters don't get as much screentime as they deserve, plotwise that is.

I agree. Goshyo has too many characters. That's the problem. But the unimportant ones will be pushed to the backburner even more-so, and their roles will become obvious.....because if they can't contribute much in DC, other important characters will outshine them. I don't mean to sound mean, but Ran fits that description. Ran can't contribute much to regular cases or BO cases, and if she does, not so much that any one else can't contribute. She can, however, be Shinichi's cheerleader or "motivation"

[kirite]

You're right. I believe though, he focuses on dependency and naivety with young school girls. Older women have had a harder life and know how the world is, so they are not so dependent on anyone. This includes Haibara since she's older.....even by a year. She is on the brink of womanhood. So those women who are beyond the age of childhood tend to act in a way that is more independent because they have more experience in the world and have acquired a life.....
Also, I see that there is a difference between Goshyo's portrayal of American heroines (Bo not included), and Goshyo's portrayal of Japanese heroines......

I don't quite follow your view on dependency and naivety.  For one all woman AND men in Gosho's universe depend on the main hero character(s).  Vermouth depends on Shinichi, Osaka's police force depends on Heiji, FBI depends on Akai etc...

Personally I think the only "naive school girl" in DC is Ayumi and that's because she's young.  However I wouldn't even call her naive even.  Given she has lots to learn about the world but she has seen the hateful/jealous/sad hearts of murderers.  

Like I said to be in "love" at the beginning that means you think about the person you like 24/7 and just want to be with that person.  If you think it's annoying, I agree with you completely xD.  I'll say it's an accurate portrayel of girls AND boys in love though.  Gosho did it right in that sense.  They are NOT mature in matters of the heart, ESPECIALLY Heiji (omfg xD).

If you mean by "devote" as in "give everything for".  Then Ran isn't exactly the best example to go by.  She devotes herself to everyone- as in she'll give everything up (her life) if it means she can save anyone.  Shinichi is the same way, he'll go out of his way to save perfect strangers/murderers (moonlight sonata).  As for the other girls I still don't see what the problem with their behavior if they're only trying to protect the people they care about.  It's not their fault that their significant other has a tendency to jump into bear pits.  They also care about their family and their friends, Ran is completely devoted to Sonoko and will strand all her crazy whims and protect her with her own life.  It's not just Ran either don't you think Haibara will save the DB if she sees the DB in danger?  That's also a sign of love don't you think?  I think since DC has this better looking = better hearted thing going on for main characters I think all the characters are like saturated in love and justice and all that icky stuff.  With that as a default, I don't agree that the only people the girls care about is their significant other, they also care about everyone else.

I also don't agree that older woman = more experience = independent.

I usually associate independent in having the amount of skills necessary to live life in a healthy, happy, productive manor.

Jodie believes evil people stay evil forever, Sato believes she's cursed, Vermouth thought the world is not worth caring about and that she was the most condemed person in the world before Shinichi and Ran changed her views, prior to Ayumi Haibara has learned from her experience that if there is danger she should run away.  In this case growing up in the Org didn't make her stronger, it just made her resign to her "fate" and find way to convince herself being terrified is normal- that's it's for the best.  If it wasn't for Ayumi's view on the world she would continue convincing herself that she's content on running and hiding.

I won't go into the American versus Japanese girls thing because Japanese people have really weird views on American people (they all carry guns, wear sunglasses, have blond hair, girls are "easy", hate Japanese people, ride on motocycles, etc....).  Gosho's better then most but still xD whatever "American" things he picked up he picked up from Hollywood movies.

I'll say how Haibara talks about how she was always teased in her American school because of her hair.  Like The Blind said it's like Gosho's "well they do it too!" with the stereotype thing xD.  I think there is also a hint of "those Americans are making fun of me because I'm a Japanese girl" element to it too (sigh).  A nitpick.  Haibara is half British half Japanese, not American (she did kinda grow up there though...BO style D8)

As for parallel in looks, it's mostly because of Gosho's drawing style xD.  I don't think Sonoko and Kazuha are alike...but they'll make a good romantic couple!

*gets bricked*

I agree. Goshyo has too many characters. That's the problem. But the unimportant ones will be pushed to the backburner even more-so, and their roles will become obvious.....because if they can't contribute much in DC, other important characters will outshine them. I don't mean to sound mean, but Ran fits that description. Ran can't contribute much to regular cases or BO cases, and if she does, not so much that any one else can't contribute.

Hmm okay, I'll put it this way.  DC is a long long LONG series.  Yet there will be moments that we can't forget.  Why?

Because they don't happen very often or they will only happen once.

Of course if I was only looking at characterisation I would rather he condense the series so that there will be decent character development for everyone in every case.  However from a mystery manga standpoint I would rather focus on the case and for everyone to move their giant head and look left so I can see the freakin' clue please.  Ran being the so called "main girl character" as you put it is a character Gosho feels comfortable using to advance most of his mysteries (which is the main plot in my opinion). She's not out of place, she can kick ass if needed, she can make observations if needed, she can call Shinichi if needed, she can convieniently get scared/get kidnapped if needed.  She's like Watson in the way she bounce ideas and her ideas is usually what helps everyone connect the dots (or helps me connect the dots).  I don't need her to become the B.O. or develop a fatal disease to advance the plot.  In reverse that will slow down the plot.

To me the DB, Haibara, Kogoro and Ran are great in cases because they advance the cases quickly and efficiently *heavenly choir* yet add personality and growth in to it to justify DC into being a kid's manga .  If left to anyone else there will be lengthy intros, love stories, weird quirks and other annoying distractions away from the actual people who matter in a case- the suspects and the detectives.  Not that there is anything wrong with love stories and fun, but if I had over 300 chapters of love stories I would read generic Shoujo manga number 376.

I don't think Gosho has too many characters.  If you can distinguish one character from another character looks then that's not too many at all xD.  Not all characters are suppose to be relavant to every part of their universe.  Shinichi isn't relavant to the Osaken police force until Heiji invites him.  Hakuba isn't relavant to the B.O. until he follows them down dark alleys where they will whack him with a bat and force feed him APTX toxin.  Of course as to what is actually the important aspects in DC is up to the reader, but it also make sense for people to read it in a completely different set of expectation.

[soratothamax]

You're right. I believe though, he focuses on dependency and naivety with young school girls. Older women have had a harder life and know how the world is, so they are not so dependent on anyone. This includes Haibara since she's older.....even by a year. She is on the brink of womanhood. So those women who are beyond the age of childhood tend to act in a way that is more independent because they have more experience in the world and have acquired a life.....
Also, I see that there is a difference between Goshyo's portrayal of American heroines (Bo not included), and Goshyo's portrayal of Japanese heroines......

I don't quite follow your view on dependency and naivety.  For one all woman AND men in Gosho's universe depend on the main hero character(s).  Vermouth depends on Shinichi, Osaka's police force depends on Heiji, FBI depends on Akai etc...

Personally I think the only "naive school girl" in DC is Ayumi and that's because she's young.  However I wouldn't even call her naive even.  Given she has lots to learn about the world but she has seen the hateful/jealous/sad hearts of murderers.  

Like I said to be in "love" at the beginning that means you think about the person you like 24/7 and just want to be with that person.  If you think it's annoying, I agree with you completely xD.  I'll say it's an accurate portrayel of girls AND boys in love though.  Gosho did it right in that sense.  They are NOT mature in matters of the heart, ESPECIALLY Heiji (omfg xD).

If you mean by "devote" as in "give everything for".  Then Ran isn't exactly the best example to go by.  She devotes herself to everyone- as in she'll give everything up (her life) if it means she can save anyone.  Shinichi is the same way, he'll go out of his way to save perfect strangers/murderers (moonlight sonata).  As for the other girls I still don't see what the problem with their behavior if they're only trying to protect the people they care about.  It's not their fault that their significant other has a tendency to jump into bear pits.  They also care about their family and their friends, Ran is completely devoted to Sonoko and will strand all her crazy whims and protect her with her own life.  It's not just Ran either don't you think Haibara will save the DB if she sees the DB in danger?  That's also a sign of love don't you think?  I think since DC has this better looking = better hearted thing going on for main characters I think all the characters are like saturated in love and justice and all that icky stuff.  With that as a default, I don't agree that the only people the girls care about is their significant other, they also care about everyone else.

I also don't agree that older woman = more experience = independent.

I usually associate independent in having the amount of skills necessary to live life in a healthy, happy, productive manor.

Jodie believes evil people stay evil forever, Sato believes she's cursed, Vermouth thought the world is not worth caring about and that she was the most condemed person in the world before Shinichi and Ran changed her views, prior to Ayumi Haibara has learned from her experience that if there is danger she should run away.  In this case growing up in the Org didn't make her stronger, it just made her resign to her "fate" and find way to convince herself being terrified is normal- that's it's for the best.  If it wasn't for Ayumi's view on the world she would continue convincing herself that she's content on running and hiding.

I won't go into the American versus Japanese girls thing because Japanese people have really weird views on American people (they all carry guns, wear sunglasses, have blond hair, girls are "easy", hate Japanese people, ride on motocycles, etc....).  Gosho's better then most but still xD whatever "American" things he picked up he picked up from Hollywood movies.

I'll say how Haibara talks about how she was always teased in her American school because of her hair.  Like The Blind said it's like Gosho's "well they do it too!" with the stereotype thing xD.  I think there is also a hint of "those Americans are making fun of me because I'm a Japanese girl" element to it too (sigh).  A nitpick.  Haibara is half British half Japanese, not American (she did kinda grow up there though...BO style D8)

As for parallel in looks, it's mostly because of Gosho's drawing style xD.  I don't think Sonoko and Kazuha are alike...but they'll make a good romantic couple!

*gets bricked*

I agree. Goshyo has too many characters. That's the problem. But the unimportant ones will be pushed to the backburner even more-so, and their roles will become obvious.....because if they can't contribute much in DC, other important characters will outshine them. I don't mean to sound mean, but Ran fits that description. Ran can't contribute much to regular cases or BO cases, and if she does, not so much that any one else can't contribute.

Hmm okay, I'll put it this way.  DC is a long long LONG series.  Yet there will be moments that we can't forget.  Why?

Because they don't happen very often or they will only happen once.

Of course if I was only looking at characterisation I would rather he condense the series so that there will be decent character development for everyone in every case.  However from a mystery manga standpoint I would rather focus on the case and for everyone to move their giant head and look left so I can see the freakin' clue please.  Ran being the so called "main girl character" as you put it is a character Gosho feels comfortable using to advance most of his mysteries (which is the main plot in my opinion). She's not out of place, she can kick ass if needed, she can make observations if needed, she can call Shinichi if needed, she can convieniently get scared/get kidnapped if needed.  She's like Watson in the way she bounce ideas and her ideas is usually what helps everyone connect the dots (or helps me connect the dots).  I don't need her to become the B.O. or develop a fatal disease to advance the plot.  In reverse that will slow down the plot.

To me the DB, Haibara, Kogoro and Ran are great in cases because they advance the cases quickly and efficiently *heavenly choir* yet add personality and growth in to it to justify DC into being a kid's manga .  If left to anyone else there will be lengthy intros, love stories, weird quirks and other annoying distractions away from the actual people who matter in a case- the suspects and the detectives.  Not that there is anything wrong with love stories and fun, but if I had over 300 chapters of love stories I would read generic Shoujo manga number 376.

I don't think Gosho has too many characters.  If you can distinguish one character from another character looks then that's not too many at all xD.  Not all characters are suppose to be relavant to every part of their universe.  Shinichi isn't relavant to the Osaken police force until Heiji invites him.  Hakuba isn't relavant to the B.O. until he follows them down dark alleys where they will whack him with a bat and force feed him APTX toxin.  Of course as to what is actually the important aspects in DC is up to the reader, but it also make sense for people to read it in a completely different set of expectation.

lol you have a point. Ran is useful to throw in a DBoys case that Shinichi initially thinks is unimportant, until he finds out Ran is kidnapped....
Still, that makes her character super dependent on Shinichi. And still Shinichi's "motivation." All the other characters are too, but most people who deal with the BO and FBI or police are dependent on Shinichi the least. Take Shinichi out of the story for a moment....but keep the same story and the same problem.....who would become the main character? Who would the BO be chasing and who would be chasing them? Who would be solving the cases? What characters would be left? (I'm thinking about who would be the main character...hmmm, maybe Haibara, since she is the refugee they are after and would draw the BO's attention,  the BO would be chasing her IF she's not dead, or Akai could,  would be the main character, who has the BO running from the FBI who would be hot on their tail, and police would be solving cases, not so well, and it would take a long time, but it's their job. They would probably hire a local detective like Kogoro or Subaru or Heiji to help......all the other characters....well, probably wouldn't be around, except Agasa, who Haibara probably would've passed out there....depending....she would probably go to school to hide out and meet the friendly detective boys...who knows....)
Like I said there are some characters who are not so dependent on Shinichi. Without him, their character would be intact doing the things they always did. Majority of the time, Shinichi/Conan mingled in THEIR affairs, they didn't mingle in HIS.

When I say naivety, I mean naive hearts. Even Shinichi is young and naive. If he were not he wouldn't be jumping in cases he's not authorized to solve, especially if he hasn't finished high school yet. Does he even have a detective license? It makes for a good story, but he is still childish in that sense.  ;) He's at the age where high school boys take chances, and like to have a rush from doing something they love. They tend to take dares, like speeding in cars, trying new drugs, being over-confident in themselves, it's  apart of the growing process. With Shinichi's new experience, he's growing up, taking less dares, etc, but he's not there yet. And same Ran. She's learning not to put her heart into everything. But at this point she is naive. Caring for someone, maybe not, but expecting a high school boy to be in love with you is naive...(most high school girls, not all, make the same mistakes). After high school, adult life and responsibilities are different. And I don't know if she can handle Shinichi and his job, where he'll be gone most of the time like he is now.....I don't think she thinks about that. Some people love each other, but can't live together....

The more adult DC characters take things more seriously due to the experience they've had in the world. They don't give out their heart so naively, and they actually have finished school and have jobs, or had jobs in the workforce to take care of themselves. They also take their steps with caution, which is wisdom. They make mistakes, but a lot of them are being penalized for the mistakes they made in their youth, and are stuck fixing it. So they now that life isn't a dream-like joy ride, where justice will always prevail and they'll always get what they want in life.

[Nyarl]

One amusing thing about the way people view Ran's character is how they'll read the worst into a scene rather than really think about the full implications. Take 12,000,000 Hostages when Sonoko is claiming that Ran wanted Shin'ichi's help to understand the "微分ç©