Shinichi playing the violin?

[dilbertschalter]

Though I'm not going to change anyone's mind on this (I think I've made the argument before to no avail), I don't see why non-canon material can't be used for discussion of character traits. When it comes to the BO, using 13 as support for an argument should be shied away from because, even though it was made as to not contradict canon (iirc at least) and, similarly, the many ShinRan scenes in the movies don't mean much of anything as far as the romance plot of the manga is concerned. But when it comes to how well someone can sing or use a gun I just don't see much of a downside to using the movies as evidence.

[Treyvoni]

Though I'm not going to change anyone's mind on this (I think I've made the argument before to no avail), I don't see why non-canon material can't be used for discussion of character traits. When it comes to the BO, using 13 as support for an argument should be shied away from because, even though it was made as to not contradict canon (iirc at least) and, similarly, the many ShinRan scenes in the movies don't mean much of anything as far as the romance plot of the manga is concerned. But when it comes to how well someone can sing or use a gun I just don't see much of a downside to using the movies as evidence.

Well I wouldn't call using a gun or singing to be character traits, but rather abilities. They have to be learned with a few exceptions. But the reason that it's hard to accept the movies in that regard is that whenever there is a need for it- Shinichi/Conan suddenly learned the skill 'in Hawaii'. And it is applied to far more than is shown in canon, to the point that the abilities that he has in the movies far exceeds that which he has in the manga. He can fly a plane, a helicopter, drive a boat and a car, sing a perfect 440 hertz, umm and sure others that I'm forgetting.

I love the movies individually, but when you start to accumulate all of them it becomes a bit too much. But that is just my personal opinion as well. The original question was whether or not Shinichi can play the violin. The answer depends on what you want to accept as canon. Movie Shinichi can, manga Shinichi likely has the ability to learn to play the violin, but we aren't certain if he has learned or not.

[kyuuketsuki]

It seems he is gifted in music, not singing... It appears he learned the piano, but there is not much evidence of him playing outside of that one case.

[Nyarl]

Well there is a picture of Him playing a recorder in Episode 18, So the part of him playing a musical instrument is canon, but it is not a Violin. But I believe that was a Manga cover with that though.

And it said that he pretty much sucked at playing that recorder, and that was when it was introduced that he was "tone-deaf". Gosho just re-arranged the facts later on for plot's sake.

See, this is the lack of respect for Aoyama I'm complaining about. There's a very detailed explanation (Treyvoni's) about how Conan was never really portrayed as "tone deaf" in the thread, but we get "arbitrary retcon" posts anyway. Why bother writing detailed analysis if its going to be ignored or dismissed as fanwank out of hand? Dus is another "more Org, more Haibara, Ran sucks" type, too. Seems to me there's a correlation there. Honestly, why follow the series if you don't really respect the author? Why waste energy trying to explain things to wilful idiots?

Sure, it's probably a retcon in the sense that Aoyama didn't have every one of Shin'ichi's flaws in mind from chapter 1, but as early as the end of Moonlight Sonata he was following the piano code by ear rather than sheet music. He was NEVER shown to be "tone deaf". That's just some dumb thing Sonoko says (and might not be a literal enough translation of something more like "can't carry a tune").

It also wouldn't be a retcon if Shin'ichi beats the crap out of someone with some martial arts. The flying kick he tried the first time Ran had to save his ass in the series didn't look like a soccer tackle to me. But, I've banged my head against that wall already on these forums, too.

[kkslider5552000]

See, this is the lack of respect for Aoyama I'm complaining about. There's a very detailed explanation (Treyvoni's) about how Conan was never really portrayed as "tone deaf" in the thread, but we get "arbitrary retcon" posts anyway. Why bother writing detailed analysis if its going to be ignored or dismissed as fanwank out of hand? Dus is another "more Org, more Haibara, Ran sucks" type, too. Seems to me there's a correlation there. Honestly, why follow the series if you don't really respect the author? Why waste energy trying to explain things to wilful idiots?

Sure, it's probably a retcon in the sense that Aoyama didn't have every one of Shin'ichi's flaws in mind from chapter 1, but as early as the end of Moonlight Sonata he was following the piano code by ear rather than sheet music. He was NEVER shown to be "tone deaf". That's just some dumb thing Sonoko says (and might not be a literal enough translation of something more like "can't carry a tune").

It also wouldn't be a retcon if Shin'ichi beats the crap out of someone with some martial arts. The flying kick he tried the first time Ran had to save his ass in the series didn't look like a soccer tackle to me. But, I've banged my head against that wall already on these forums, too.

thanks, I've been wanting to use this again

[kyuuketsuki]

Naryl, fact: there are MANY forms of kicks used by a striker in soccer. Shinichi could have adapted any one of those into an attack, doesn't mean it will be effective of well executed. Also, a tackle isn't exactly the most technical of things. Further more it is not shown that he has any skill in that department. Ran does, Kogorou does, Hattori does, and Kazuha does. Shinichi is the only one without some formal training. We can assume anyone in the MPD has also had basic training for the purposes of police work.

I can tell you from experience that anyone can throw a kick that looks like a martial arts kick without formal training, but to produce power and speed requires proper form and training. Also... if we are thinking of the same kick, then it is TOTALLY a soccer kick, which is why it was caught. Huge wind up, cocking the leg back as far as it could go to generate power, instead of generating power from the other leg and the turn of the hips. A powerful kick it makes, but also a painfully slow one. I've seen plenty of 7 year olds have kicks fast enough to not get caught, in fact that is their best attribute at that size... their speed.

[Freyr]

Though I'm not going to change anyone's mind on this (I think I've made the argument before to no avail), I don't see why non-canon material can't be used for discussion of character traits. When it comes to the BO, using 13 as support for an argument should be shied away from because, even though it was made as to not contradict canon (iirc at least) and, similarly, the many ShinRan scenes in the movies don't mean much of anything as far as the romance plot of the manga is concerned. But when it comes to how well someone can sing or use a gun I just don't see much of a downside to using the movies as evidence.

For many people, unless it is the original author's intention or work, it irks them to think of it as official. I'm a rabid Star Wars buff and the cannon issue is prevalent as so many individuals besides George Lucas have been given the opportunity to work on or create Star Wars. G-Level canon or bust for many--if its not the original author I don't even care. Others take it as psuedo-canon, as in, canon unless a higher authority says otherwise. So the side story stuff is all good unless it contradicts something in the main story. For Star Wars, the "main story" is simply that of the guy that owns the rights, GL, even though there is so much material now it is kinda ridiculous. I'm much more of the latter camp. But even is something changes and makes a story obsolete in a "timeline," can still be fun and doesn't diminish the story just by being non-canon.

Connecting back to Conan, if Gosho came out next issue which showed Conan cannot play a Violin, then he cannot in "canon". For a mystery, definitely have to be careful about that sort of thing so I can get the want to know what is real and what is not. But if it had no bearing on plot advancement, then just a style choice and doesn't really matter. So yeah, basically trying to say that if it is important that he not know Violin for the plot of the overall story, then he should be considered not to. Otherwise, doesn't hurt to have other sources like the movies to add to the characters or story, and shouldn't diminish their story if an element is "false" in the main work.

[Nyarl]

See, this is the lack of respect for Aoyama I'm complaining about. There's a very detailed explanation (Treyvoni's) about how Conan was never really portrayed as "tone deaf" in the thread, but we get "arbitrary retcon" posts anyway. Why bother writing detailed analysis if its going to be ignored or dismissed as fanwank out of hand? Dus is another "more Org, more Haibara, Ran sucks" type, too. Seems to me there's a correlation there. Honestly, why follow the series if you don't really respect the author? Why waste energy trying to explain things to wilful idiots?

Sure, it's probably a retcon in the sense that Aoyama didn't have every one of Shin'ichi's flaws in mind from chapter 1, but as early as the end of Moonlight Sonata he was following the piano code by ear rather than sheet music. He was NEVER shown to be "tone deaf". That's just some dumb thing Sonoko says (and might not be a literal enough translation of something more like "can't carry a tune").

It also wouldn't be a retcon if Shin'ichi beats the crap out of someone with some martial arts. The flying kick he tried the first time Ran had to save his ass in the series didn't look like a soccer tackle to me. But, I've banged my head against that wall already on these forums, too.

thanks, I've been wanting to use this again

Ah, the guy who gets to insult people and be an asshole because he sides with the consensus clique contributes nothing but dismissiveness to the discussion. Surprise, surprise.

[Dus]

See, this is the lack of respect for Aoyama I'm complaining about. There's a very detailed explanation (Treyvoni's) about how Conan was never really portrayed as "tone deaf" in the thread, but we get "arbitrary retcon" posts anyway. Why bother writing detailed analysis if its going to be ignored or dismissed as fanwank out of hand? Dus is another "more Org, more Haibara, Ran sucks" type, too. Seems to me there's a correlation there. Honestly, why follow the series if you don't really respect the author? Why waste energy trying to explain things to wilful idiots?

Seriously?
Ah, the guy who gets to insult people and be an asshole because he sides with the consensus clique contributes nothing but dismissiveness to the discussion. Surprise, surprise.

[...] Gosho is free to do what he wishes, but his work is far from being above criticism (much to the chagrin of some). [...] just because it can be explained away does not validate it as anything but lackluster and predictable plotting.

Yep, I couldn't even be bothered to do a retaliation of my own because that is clearly a ridiculous statement: "Oh, he doesn't think the pace at which the series progresses and doesn't like the female lead character. We can't he just acknowledge Aoyama as the infalliable messiah of literature that he is?"

Well, I guess I have to apologise for saying it is retcon. Because it isn't. In volume 7, as you pointed out, Shinichi is shown as being quite capable of distinguishing different notes to the point that he can figure out a code based on it. At the same time we learn that he cannot read notes and has to ask Ran to do it for him. Then, in volume 8, we learn that he was completely incapable of learning to play the recorder. So he may have perfect pitch, but he doesn't have any musical abilities at all, because he just doesn't care about the subject.
Which may not make much sense, but is not really a contradiction. In the movies, however, he is shown as an avid and apt player of the violin. Which contradicts the canon and is BS.

[Kor]

Ah, the guy who gets to insult people and be an asshole because he sides with the consensus clique contributes nothing but dismissiveness to the discussion. Surprise, surprise.

I find a very amusing irony in this statement.

That aside, there are many ways to have discussions without name-callings. While I'm pretty sure those who are already familiar with your charming personality might not be bothered by your comments, new members however might be bothered. So for their sake, please don't flame others.

[Treyvoni]

Well, I guess I have to apologise for saying it is retcon. Because it isn't. In volume 7, as you pointed out, Shinichi is shown as being quite capable of distinguishing different notes to the point that he can figure out a code based on it. At the same time we learn that he cannot read notes and has to ask Ran to do it for him. Then, in volume 8, we learn that he was completely incapable of learning to play the recorder. So he may have perfect pitch, but he doesn't have any musical abilities at all, because he just doesn't care about the subject.

Which may not make much sense, but is not really a contradiction. In the movies, however, he is shown as an avid and apt player of the violin. Which contradicts the canon and is BS.

I'm sorry for asking this in light of recent disputes, but can you source the fact that he cannot read notes? In volume 7, file 5 page 79 of said volume. Conan/Shinichi asks Ran about the notations next to the notes (which is fairly musical ignorant, yes - but one possible explanation would be that he was thinking too deeply into it, rather than going for the more obvious code. There is also the fact that he needs to maintain the facade of childhood so he can ask some stupid questions on occasion). But on the next page he can read the notes and map them onto a piano keyboard without any hesitation or asking for help, which does show some musical training as it was both the Treble and Bass clef.

Obviously, there are multiple ways to interpret the same events and still be canonical.

[Dus]

Ah, guess I remembered that scene wrong. I think there is another scene where he couldn't read notes, I'll try and find it.

Edit: Found it and turns out I was wrong. In chapter 261, he asks Ran what notes the musical box is missing, but it's because Ran is familiar with the song in question and he is not. And at the end of the case, he demonstrates that he is familiar with both the Do-Re-MI and the I-Ro-Ha system of calling notes. He also knew that the b is called h in Germany. So he does have some theoretical knowledge about music and is able to read notes (which makes more sense, since that makes it easier to figure out the code in volume 7).

I stand corrected, still doesn't mean he can play a musical instrument though.

[Jd-]

[...] Gosho is free to do what he wishes, but his work is far from being above criticism (much to the chagrin of some). [...] just because it can be explained away does not validate it as anything but lackluster and predictable plotting.

Hey, I just got a shoutout!

[Nyarl]

Well, I guess I have to apologise for saying it is retcon. Because it isn't. In volume 7, as you pointed out, Shinichi is shown as being quite capable of distinguishing different notes to the point that he can figure out a code based on it.

Removed for cursing and, much more importantly, flaming someone without even bothering to say something constructive as well. It is one thing to make an argument in heated fashion, it is another for a post to be "lol u dumb". This is an interesting thread, but if the flaming keeps up, it will have to be killed (this goes to others who have posted here as well)

-dilbertschalter

Wondering about whether the abuse led to the re-thinking was an honest question. Intuitively one would expect abuse to harden positions, but Dus actually gave a mea culpa. Maybe folks need to be challenged, not just politely disagreed with...

If you want ask about the degree to which your glorious method of argumentation changed the mind of some foolish person, you can do that via PM.

That doesn't work since I'm still flagging delete

[Dus]

The sad part is that I'm still saying the movie writers just make shit up to suit the plot without regard for continuity and that your hostility had nothing whatsoever to do with me double-checking these pages.
In fact, it almost made Trevyoni shy away from posting and telling me that Shinichi's theoretical knowledge is greater than I had remembered it to be. The fact that he couldn't play/sing an instrument if his life depended on it still stands. Which movie 12 clearly f***ed up.

The reason I said it's not retcon is merely because the fact that he has perfect pitch was established before the fact that he cannot play an instrument. Which is still an odd combination of abilites but not an absolute contradiction.