Shinichi+Ran

[doublemoonlight]

^ I know I am just SlAGGING FRUSTRATED at all bashing of ShinRan that happened currently... 

[sonoci]

Feeding the fire will create more fire.

Feeding the bashing will create more bashing. :X

*cough* Horrible phrase of mine aside, the only way to counter bashing is to remain calm. If things just escalate, they'll...well, escalate. If the bashing has nothing to build on, it can't climb and get worse.

In other words, all of the bashing happening lately is due to the reactions to said bashing. It's no fun to tease stoic people, after all

Spoiler: Prime example that means basically nothing

My family was having a miny vacation. Immediate family, grandparents, cousins, aunts and uncles, the works. Two of my cousins found water guns and - being the average boys they were - decided it'd be hilarious to squirt me and my sister. My sister reacted by squealing and squirming and running. I just remained still.

Two guesses on who they eventually gave up on 

[doublemoonlight]

still I can not help but feel URGE to kick those anti-shinrans outta this thread and keep this thread peaceful.

[ziraulo]

Why do you guys always have discussions like these when I'm at school? Is it because of the time difference or something?

@ Divinely Ethereal:

I know that many people probably told you this, but seriously, try to keep it polite. When you say "idiot" in your posts, it feels like you're bashing anyone who's going to reply to you. We may be debating in here, but please keep it as polite as possible. Chances are, people wouldn't be sharpening pitchforks (whether literally or not) and pointing them at you because they're ShinRan fans, they'll probably do that because you sound rude.

Anyway, if Eisuke was serious about wanting to date Ran, then why didn't he just go and ask her? If you're talking about autonomy, then let me ask you this: Would you have a choice to do something if it hasn't even crossed your mind in the first place? It's not like Shinichi has an official claim; they're not even married. Honestly, he would've had a better chance with Ran if he had the guts to ask her out himself instead of telling some random kid that he's going to ask her out.

And I don't think that Araide even showed some interest in Ran. The only reason why I see him as a possible love rival is because of the cliche manner that he and Ran met at his first appearance. Other than that, I just ignore him.

Once again, the "waiting for 10 years" thing is simply speculation. It may happen, but then again, it may not. It isn't exactly the best thing to build your argument on.

@ IHKF:

Not all girls Ran's age would want to date. Hell, I'm her age and I don't even want to go to prom, much less go on a date! You shouldn't force yourself to do something that you're not even sure about. In my opinion, that's what's happening to Ran: She's not sure whether Shinichi has feelings for her (at least, before London), but she doesn't really have anyone else she has her eye on, so why date? Honestly, I'd rather be single than go out and date some random guy because I want a boyfriend.


And finally, my own opinion on the topic that doesn't involve anyone else:

I prefer ShinRan to other couples simply because most couple nowadays don't have the same type of romance they do. I admire their relationship because despite all that they've been through, all the personal problems, the teasing from the general public, and now even the issue of Shinichi shrinking, they somehow managed to keep it together. It's definitely stronger than any modern romance in my opinion.

[doublemoonlight]

@Divinely Ethereal: I do not think ShinRan is famimist. After all she isn't " Dumbasses in Distress" and plus the fact that she has to wait for Shinnich isn't offensive to women. It just means that she is strong enough to wait on Shinnich and in manga and anime there is no indication that 10+ years have passed so it just means only months have passed in DC world. Unless you mean EVERY ANIME GIRL MUST  NOT AWAIT FOR THEIR ( BOY) FRIEND I SEE HOW SHINRAN IS OFFENSIVE TO WOMEN!

[Hime-Chan]

Yes, but the portion who think like you probably is a whole lot smaller than that that think like us.

Maybe, but the minority has also rights to exist. The majority of love stories in this world aren't like ShinRan at all, so why don't you just stay happy with being the majority without dreaming of destroying the stories which are the minority? To be honest, I like ShinRan not because I feel "connected" with them, like you previously said, but because I like stories where the first love is also the last one and where the couple involved are childhood friends. If it's almost impossible in real life, it's good it's possible in fiction at least. It wouldn't be really nice of you to destroy one of the last rare examples of "first love which lasts till death" stories just to keep yourself happy for a couple of days, if you had the possibility. You already have the majority of the love stories, remember? The concept of "eternal faithfulness" which you seem to hate so much almost doesn't exist even in fiction. Why don't leave to the minority at least something to keep them happy?

Yes, it does have a right to exist. (I support AyuCon, duh. )

No, most aren't like ShinRan. Because love stories usually have healthy relationships. I don't dream of killing the minority's dreams. I'm actually usually one to stand up for the Underdog. But this couple? This relationship? No way in heck. EVER.

I didn't say EVERYBODY felt connected with them, but a large portion of ShinRan fans happen to feel that Ran is the best thing since sliced bread (their vanity). Or they want to be her.

It's not impossible in real life at all, just really really really unlikely to happen. Which is another reason why I doubt ShinRan so much.

First love lasts till death? HAH! XD Don't make me bust my lungs open now! I doubt this is "LOVE" in the FIRST PLACE! XD SERIOUSLY! They're TEENAGERS! WHO HAVE HORMONES! And he has shown nothing but POSSESSIVENESS of her! XD Love my butt.

Happy for a couple of days? Really? Is that SERIOUSLY why you think I'm arguing? No. I'm arguing because this relationship is unhealthy and it isn't actual love and it's about on the same level as Twilight when it comes to their definition of "love".

Eternal faithfulness to somebody you KNOW loves you back is WAY DIFFERENT than faithfulness to a boy you don't even know returns your feelings. Don't confuse the two.

Because the minority doesn't have a healthy definition this time around.

IHKF, you're contradicting yourself when writing this post, you're the one that said that Ayumi will never get over Conan a few weeks back, if what Ayumi feels for Conan is "love", then he's her first crush love.

[IHKF]

Yes, but the portion who think like you probably is a whole lot smaller than that that think like us.

Maybe, but the minority has also rights to exist. The majority of love stories in this world aren't like ShinRan at all, so why don't you just stay happy with being the majority without dreaming of destroying the stories which are the minority? To be honest, I like ShinRan not because I feel "connected" with them, like you previously said, but because I like stories where the first love is also the last one and where the couple involved are childhood friends. If it's almost impossible in real life, it's good it's possible in fiction at least. It wouldn't be really nice of you to destroy one of the last rare examples of "first love which lasts till death" stories just to keep yourself happy for a couple of days, if you had the possibility. You already have the majority of the love stories, remember? The concept of "eternal faithfulness" which you seem to hate so much almost doesn't exist even in fiction. Why don't leave to the minority at least something to keep them happy?

Yes, it does have a right to exist. (I support AyuCon, duh. )

No, most aren't like ShinRan. Because love stories usually have healthy relationships. I don't dream of killing the minority's dreams. I'm actually usually one to stand up for the Underdog. But this couple? This relationship? No way in heck. EVER.

I didn't say EVERYBODY felt connected with them, but a large portion of ShinRan fans happen to feel that Ran is the best thing since sliced bread (their vanity). Or they want to be her.

It's not impossible in real life at all, just really really really unlikely to happen. Which is another reason why I doubt ShinRan so much.

First love lasts till death? HAH! XD Don't make me bust my lungs open now! I doubt this is "LOVE" in the FIRST PLACE! XD SERIOUSLY! They're TEENAGERS! WHO HAVE HORMONES! And he has shown nothing but POSSESSIVENESS of her! XD Love my butt.

Happy for a couple of days? Really? Is that SERIOUSLY why you think I'm arguing? No. I'm arguing because this relationship is unhealthy and it isn't actual love and it's about on the same level as Twilight when it comes to their definition of "love".

Eternal faithfulness to somebody you KNOW loves you back is WAY DIFFERENT than faithfulness to a boy you don't even know returns your feelings. Don't confuse the two.

Because the minority doesn't have a healthy definition this time around.

IHKF, you're contradicting yourself when writing this post, you're the one that said that Ayumi will never get over Conan a few weeks back, if what Ayumi feels for Conan is "love", then he's her first crush love.

No, I'm not. It seems that Ayumi is pretty convinced Conan has feelings for her, which means she would be justified hanging onto him.

At the time the OVA was made, the "confession" in London hadn't happened. Ran had no reason to hang onto him besides the sake of feelings she had as a teenage girl. I don't think i'm really contradicting myself there. xD

Why do you guys always have discussions like these when I'm at school? Is it because of the time difference or something?

@ Divinely Ethereal:

I know that many people probably told you this, but seriously, try to keep it polite. When you say "idiot" in your posts, it feels like you're bashing anyone who's going to reply to you. We may be debating in here, but please keep it as polite as possible. Chances are, people wouldn't be sharpening pitchforks (whether literally or not) and pointing them at you because they're ShinRan fans, they'll probably do that because you sound rude.

Anyway, if Eisuke was serious about wanting to date Ran, then why didn't he just go and ask her? If you're talking about autonomy, then let me ask you this: Would you have a choice to do something if it hasn't even crossed your mind in the first place? It's not like Shinichi has an official claim; they're not even married. Honestly, he would've had a better chance with Ran if he had the guts to ask her out himself instead of telling some random kid that he's going to ask her out.

And I don't think that Araide even showed some interest in Ran. The only reason why I see him as a possible love rival is because of the cliche manner that he and Ran met at his first appearance. Other than that, I just ignore him.

Once again, the "waiting for 10 years" thing is simply speculation. It may happen, but then again, it may not. It isn't exactly the best thing to build your argument on.

@ IHKF:

Not all girls Ran's age would want to date. Hell, I'm her age and I don't even want to go to prom, much less go on a date! You shouldn't force yourself to do something that you're not even sure about. In my opinion, that's what's happening to Ran: She's not sure whether Shinichi has feelings for her (at least, before London), but she doesn't really have anyone else she has her eye on, so why date? Honestly, I'd rather be single than go out and date some random guy because I want a boyfriend.

If she didn't want to date she wouldn't pay her feelings towards Shinichi any mind. She obviously wants to date, she's just tied to somebody she doesn't know likes her or not. Nobody is ever sure when they start dating. The point of dating is to give people a try and see if you like them or not.

[Divinely Ethereal]

This is for Dwalin , O King of Morality:

Shinichi has taken advantage of Ran in his shrunken state. He willingly took a bath with her, more than once. He even had nosebleeds throughout, which is Manga shorthand for lust.  She would have to kick him to the curb just for that, because it's not "moral" to take advantage that way.

Sonoci and the rest: I called Dwalin an idiot just  once and left it at that.  No need to write  essay-length pieces in outraged response. I assure you there is nothing wrong with my comprehensin skills;  a note would have been enough, and I wouldn't have done it again.

As to the users wanting to throw critics out of this thread, this shows your inability to come up with good defensive arguments.  Silencing free speech is not the way to go, because as pointed out, this read is not entitled "FANS". One would think you'd be grateful for my livening up of this otherwise boring space. How many times can you go "Awww Shin and Ran are so cute!" before it gets awfully dull?

And when I called Ran pathetic: Fictional characters/works get critiqued all the time. Some people make a living out of it. They are not real. They do not take offence. And neither should you take it as a personal affront. Ran is not your mother. She is not your sister. Please -.-

Thank you....

[ziraulo]

This is for Dwalin , O King of Morality:

Shinichi has taken advantage of Ran in his shrunken state. He willingly took a bath with her, more than once. He even had nosebleeds throughout, which is Manga shorthand for lust.  She would have to kick him to the curb just for that, because it's not "moral" to take advantage that way.

Sonoci and the rest: I called Dwalin an idiot just  once and left it at that.  No need to write  essay-length pieces in outraged response. I assure you there is nothing wrong with my comprehensin skills;  a note would have been enough, and I wouldn't have done it again.

As to the users wanting to throw critics out of this thread, this shows your inability to come up with good defensive arguments.  Silencing free speech is not the way to go, because as pointed out, this read is not entitled "FANS". One would think you'd be grateful for my livening up of this otherwise boring space. How many times can you go "Awww Shin and Ran are so cute!" before it gets awfully dull?

And when I called Ran pathetic: Fictional characters/works get critiqued all the time. Some people make a living out of it. They are not real. They do not take offence. And neither should you take it as a personal affront. Ran is not your mother. She is not your sister. Please -.-

Thank you....

@ Your reply to Dwalin:

I think we've already established the fact that Shinichi would get a well-deserved beating when he finally tells Ran the truth. Heck, anyone in their right mind would think so. No need to say that over and over again.

@ Throwing people out of the thread:

Yeah, you did liven up the atmosphere. However, too much arguments do get annoying at times. Sometimes, you either fail to get your point across or the other person doesn't get it and you just go around in circles. Happens a lot. Not that I mind arguing, though. I need some practice for my oral defense. XXXDD

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

This is for Dwalin , O King of Morality:

Replied by PM but I do believe this needs some public repeating...

---

Considerations before posting

User bashing is always bad.If you don't like the argument then attack the argument, not the person making it. This extends to categorizing users by the arguments they make or the things they support/don't support.

Do not encourage or support pairing wars or an "opposing sides" mentality. The easiest way to create a battleground mentality is to war over pairings. It becomes all to easy to bash other users.

Be respectful of other pairings, even if you dislike them. Also keep in mind that the proponents of a pairing are independent of that pairing's merit. If you post in a pairing thread critical of the topic pairing, please be extra tasteful and polite because more people will disagree.

---

Breaking the rules or generally being too annoying in a pairing thread has gotten several people banned before as I am sure some of the older users will recall. That's all.

[Hime-Chan]

Ran also agreed to take bath with him, it was kind of stupid on her part I admit, after you're 13, it's kind of awkward to take bath with others (in an innocent way), Ran is as much at fault on this part. Everybody make stupid mistakes, and in the story, it was probably used as comic relief or something.
Have you read other shonen? Where girls have watermelons instead of boobs and wear skimpy clothes all the times, they even fight with barely a scrap of fabric just because some people think it's arousing or whatever, that's even worse I think, because they're just objects. Mangakas also like to make them super thin, like "hello, I'm 160cm high, I weight 42kg, and my boobs defy the laws of gravity", do you think it gives a better image for teenage girls? Boys are expecting super model when japanese girls are mostly flat.
I'd rather read a manga where the characters have flaws like waiting for one guy until you're sure he doesn't return the feeling (because, it happens! you don't need to be a weak little thing to be dependant on someone.) rather than what I said above.
Detective Conan is not a masterpiece in literature anyway, but it at least tells you to use your brain, once you've done that, you can understand that you don't take for reality what you are reading

I hope I made sense ^^

[kirite]

Pffffft I don't mind bashing and arguing too too much actually *eats popcorn* but then I'm a horrible person so what do I know

With that said personally I never found it was in my nature to call people names or get offensive no matter how passionate I am about a point.  Maybe occasionally I will feel frustrated I'm sure we all learned in school how to play nice with others yes?


And um guys.  You don't run across burning bridges for people you don't care about.  
The way you can tell that he likes her more then normal is because he loses his perfect cool attitude where she is concerned.  Thats what haibara always teases him about.  You can argue that the couple is boring or that they won't work out or even that their so call love is just friendship but its best not to ignore actual facts brought on from the series.

If you can't tell from that line in my sig I await the ass beating that ran will deliver at the end <3

[sonoci]

However, too much arguments do get annoying at times. Sometimes, you either fail to get your point across or the other person doesn't get it and you just go around in circles. Happens a lot. Not that I mind arguing, though. I need some practice for my oral defense. XXXDD

This. This so much.

[Borealis]

Long post is going to be long:
I do not mean to insult anyone (It, however, is easy to read my comments with a sarcastiv voice. This, however, is because my personal humor has it in spades)

Spoiler: Divinely Ethereal

I'm sorry, but the popularity of this pairing has me concerned. I know that the majority of you are probably not Guardian-reading Liberal feminist types (1), but anyone with even a semblance of Western background/education (2) should be ticked off at the frankly insulting portrayal of a so-called "idealistic" romance that subscribes to toxic patriarchal norms. The "pure", motherly/nurturing, endlessly devoted/faithful chick who sits at home waiting for her "Samurai" champion (3) to come home, when said champion is a selfish bastard who keeps lying to her and won't let her go (4)... well, what exactly is the allure of such an unequal relationship? I would have much respect for Ran if she stopped weeping like a daft ninny for two seconds (5) and decided to go out once with someone else (6), if only to make him jealous, like, you know, what a normal functioning teenage girl would do (7), but it appears Ran has no self-respect (8). And when they're married, what then? She just sits home making dinner and popping out/looking after brats while he goes off solving cases (9)? Because she's clearly  not even a cool, adventuress type like Yukiko (10) who loves travelling and getting some action. I don't understand why Gosho would want Kudo to shackle himself to such a needy, clingy over-sensitive brat (11), especially since he prides himself on being a Holmes fanatic. If he really wanted to be like Holmes, he'd swear off women altogether. Kudo has absolutely no credibility as a Heisei Holmes, and the climax of the Holmes Arc was a complete joke.

1) Yep, We are ordenary people that see the difference between girls and boys but don't think any of them are better. We (Or at least, I) know that a couple of million years of evolution have left their marks (I would reccomend the books of Allan & Barbara Pease. They point out the differences between the genders and individuals of the same gender)
2) a) DC is asian, not western. Please keep that in mind.
b) I think that everyone here has enjoyed a fairly good education, thank you very much
3) I do not think that faithfulness is bad. I think it is necessary for a healthy relationship. And Ran doesn't just sit at home, she has a very bussy life. She just doesn't date other guys. Ran doesn't seem very outgong to me. She is shy.
4) I am not trying to say that his love for her is entirely pure. He is a teenager, after all. And he isn't a perfect person. Everybody is allowed to be a bit selfish. And every teenager has the right to be a bit of a jerk.
About the lying part: Ok, let's say you just got nearly killed by two strange people you have no clue of and a personal friend of you tells you that it would be better (understatement) not to tell anybody. sarcasm Of course you immediately tell the person that is the most important to you and gets very emmotional /sarcasm (remember that he thinks he is the icing of the cake that is humanity (ordinary teenage mentality) and he has to protect her)
Now, you have been living with that lie (you lie to almost anybody you meet) and found out that those two guys 1) aren't quite as "harmless" as expected, 2) they are not alone 3) god knows who is involved into that whole mess, including FBI, CIA and apearently many who lost loved ones to that oranisation. Telling your loved one about them isn't such a bright idea (especially because this loved one has a tendency to get involved into bad stuff. Also, your facade only works because of the way everyone acts around you, you sure they would be such good actors?) and you have done enough things that would make that person kill you (and that person is capable of it) if you only told the other half of the story.
5) She isn't always on-screen so you might have overseen the fact that that she isn't crumbling into a pool of tears every 20 seconds. I don't drink, smoke, take drugs, f*** with everyone I see or go to wild parties. You just described someone as "functional" who would do all that
6) If by "go out" you mean dates, well you can't blame someone for not wanting to meet people of the other gender (especially if it is likely that they just want to use you. (Remember, Ran is regarded as being attractive and there aren't just gentlemen out there) It seems to me that she wasn't interested in anybody else and why should she force herself to date someone she is not interested in when there is someone she is interested in.
If you mean "meeting friends", well she seems to go to many places with Sonoko and she also seems to get along fine with other girls in her school. We just don't see it on screen often.
7) The attitude you are describing is that of girls I couldn't stand being in a room for more than twenty seconds. For me it is the opposite of a "functional teenage girl"
8) maybe. I have little too. I still wouldn't want to date someonoe I don't even like
9) Believe it or not, some women and men would rather be at home with their children but their job or society doesn't like that. Look at the western society; You have more than two children and for others you are a weirdo (sometimes if you have any children at all) I am all but a cliché girl. I'm mor of a tomboy, to be honest. I still like baking and I want children when I get older. I wouldn't mind staying at home (which is hard work by is's own. Especially if you have children. If you really are a feminist, then you should concentrate more on the competences brought by feminity than how women can do what men can do) but I am still going to start studying in autumn because it is required by society (and our pension system)
10) people are different. So what? I don't want to go on big andventures either.
11) didn't you describe Shinichi like that? Can you really say you never acted like that in your life?
About Holmes fan: I am a fan of the witches in the discworld novels. Do I want to be like them? Hell No! I am not like them and your personality doesn't change even if you want be like someone else. You take over some of their characteristics (wearing similliar clothes, perhaps even speaking like them) but there are things about that person that don't fit you and you don't take them over. Not because you don't like that characteristic but because it isn't you.

Spoiler: Schillok

Why should she become a housewife?
I know, one of the major weaknesses in DC is the lack of characterization of the (non-adult) female cast (1). We hardly know anything about Ran herself, only from times when she is together with Shinichi. Which career does she aspire. She doesn't seem to be interested in law (like her mother) or solving crimes (like her father), but that doesn't mean she has no idea of what she wants to become in the future. The reader just doesn't know, so the lack of her interests leads to the "she becomes a housewife" conclusion.
Actually, this is not only true for Ran, but for Kazuha and Sonoko as well. Even for Haibara we do not know what would become of her if she were able to return being Shiho without danger from the BO. Ayumi might be least effected by this - for one she is still too young to have decided on her future occupation, for the other her constant interaction with the police officers makes it easier to imagine that she might chose to become one in the future as well.

Don't get me wrong: There is a point in your argument. Their interests ARE quite different and they might run in trouble when married and their "love" isn't enough to keep them together anymore (2). Still, there is no way predicting if they would just fall apart (like Eri-Kogoro) or will be able to overcome that obstacle.

But Ran is not a desperate whinny princess waiting obediently for her prince. She just has no interest in anyone else at the moment - and is in love with Shinichi if we believe that confession of hers early in the series. Why should she date a guy she doesn't even like, when there is Shinichi who at least calls her regularly (and only her) and despite not being able to tell her when he will be able to return is clearly missing her? (3)
He is only gone for a few month now. Of course once this period gets longer (and Conan has to accept that there is no way back to become Shinichi - which would never happen the way the manga works) these feelings might finally decay and she would become open to other possible partners. Maybe someone who shares more of her interests. (4)

I don't think Shinichi wants to be like Holmes - not entirely. He should know that Holmes also had some bad characteristics that are not worth trying to aquire - is addiction to narcotics or disregard for anything not related to solving crimes. Shinichi knows that the earth orbits the sun. (5)
Since he already likes (loves?) Ran, he likely won't swear of woman. Maybe prioritize them less than other humans would, but he is able to fall in love.

1) Scratch female and non-adult. This is told from Conan's perspective. No character has ever talked about what they want to become in the future. We don't even know for sure what Heiji wants to become. (It is likely it has something to do with solving cases but he might have other interests as well). Perhaps they don't even know what they want to become. (Not everyone has their life planned out in high school)
2) Who said that people have to share interests to have a healthy relationship.
If you mean that Ran seems to want to stay on one place: Shinichi hasn't shown any signs of being bored of the place he stays right now. He even prefered to stay alone in Tokyo instead of going to america some years prior
3) This
4) my thoughts exactly. It hasn't been years in-universe (and therefore he has called her more often per month than it seems to us)
If it really gets longer and Shinichi gives up, it might actually happen as you wrote. But I am positive as well that it won't happen.
5) *nods* Jup

Spoiler: Dwalin

Unfortunately, today it is considered normal for "normal functioning teenage people" to go out with more than one person and to use others to make jealous somebody else. Many people think there is nothing wrong in being like animals and are not able to understand the value of the concept of faithfulness.

My thoughts exactly. (Well, without the animal part, some stick to each other forever)

Spoiler: Divinely again

She was exactly that in the school play, if only it was only acting. I still think she's a moron. Case in point: She didn't take down a criminal because a fortune cookie told her Kudo wouldn't like it! That was legit. retarded, and awfully embarrassing to watch for a long-term viewer like myself.

Unfortunately, we know from the little side story to Movie 14 that Kazuha wants a (more specifically Heiji's) BABY, which doesn't really help the argument that these seventeen-year-old girls have their life priorities straight, at least where Gosho and his anime staff are standing.

MOST unfortunately, this fragile hope of ours doesn't hold true in light of OVA 9, where Ran would rather remain a pathetic spinster than move on with someone who is NOT Shinichi. Of course, it's all in Kudo's head( and even in his own head he wouldn't let her go, the despicable bastard), but Gosho and his staff are even more despicable if they believe Ran becoming Miss Havisham is not only acceptable but the proper way to go in an alternate what-if-he-doesn't-come-back scenario.

I'm not sure if the whole gender stereotyping/sexism thing in DC is a Gosho&co thing, or a Japanese culture thing (and you're welcome to speculate with me) but things that I've noticed that have offended my sensibilities/sent wrong messages:

-If you're a serious/no-nonsense,  responsible ,extremely intelligent/studious, career-driven girl like Eri, you'll end up with a loser like Kogoro while if you're a frivolus, playful, bat-your-lashes type like Yukiko/Sonoko, or a pretty, naive simple-minded gal like Ran/Kazuha/Aoko/Akemi you'll end up with the 'cool' guys (Kudo Sr and Jr, Hattori, Kaito, Makoto and Akai). Trope *slightly* subverted by Satou/Takagi, but not really, because Takagi still isn't exactly the "cool" guy/ most eligible bachelor type, and at least him and Satou are co-workers for a change.

-Conan's sexism when it comes to Haibara:
a) Conan in one episode tells her : "Oh, so I guess you CAN say girly things after all".
b)Conan going "Haibara?!Na!" to his mum. He figures Haibara doesn't like him because she has no overwhelming urge to talk about her feelings, or make goo-goo eyes at him, or cry, or say his name in an annoying breathy way; he seems to operate under the misconception that these are the symptoms that would be displayed by a "proper" girl with a crush on his person.
c)Conan doesn't do anything to actively discourage Ayumi's crush on him, yet when Mitsuhiko shows interest in Haibara, he jumps in to tell him not to go for it because "she is too difficult". It's not about the age difference; it's because Kudo is not comfortable with  the kind of 'female' Haibara represents, and expects the world's entire male population to agree with his sentiment. Come to think of it, he displays discomfort with any female who appears to be too independent-minded and/or has a big personality like Eri and his own mother. He would probably put the latter two in the "too difficult" box as well.

You're right about Sherlock, of course. He was not meant to be an idealistic, likeable type. Sometimes, I wonder if Gosho has even read the same source material I did. My innerHolmes fan rebelled at Kudo self-righteously declaring to Ray Curtis that "drugs and murder are foul and without excuse", because that is not something canon!Holmes would have been able to claim in good conscience, since, as you said, he was into recreative drug use.  I guess that's why my favourite anime detective is "L", not Kudo. His mild autism and moral relativity is much more characteristic of genius detective types than Kudo's high school vapidness.

Ending Note: I'm a huge BBC!Sherlock fan. I'd like to imagine that in a cross-over with DC, he'd punch Kudo, insult Ran and adopt Haibara

1st paragraph:
a) It was a play, ok? We had roman gods and Spongebob in one play (yes, in the same). Were the actors anything like their roles? No, they were random students who had volunteered and could remember their lines.
b) I think everyone who squeezes themself into too small clothes to impress someone is stupid. Not studying for your A-levels is stupid. Have I done one of them? Yes, Yes I have. Have you never done something really stupid? I also think Gosho went a bit over the top with that one (the criminal was very stupid as well in that scene, mind you)

P2) Anime filler aren't canon. Movies aren't canon. Sidestories even less.
And what is wrong with wanting a baby? (Especially if you are holding a cute one and the hormones are rushing through you) I want to have a family of my own one day as well. You might have other priorities than other women.

P3) 1) OVAs aren't canon. Gosho hardly has a saying in these. 2) It was Conans dream. And we already had the "he is a bloody teenager" part.

P4) It is the fact that a how-old-he-ever-might-be japanese man with not too much knowledge about the female thought process is trying to write romance. Nuff said

P5) Well, Kogoro just became such a looser because Eri left him. (Which kinda sends the message "You got a wife better treat her well or she might leave you and you are nothing without her but she is just fine without you" The girls are just the ones the female readers can identify with so that they stay. And I think that they are different personality-wise from each other. Aoko is noted to look boyish, (I don't think Kaito will ever say that into her face again), hot-headed but intelligent a bit naive (or she tries not to see the truth) and has self esteem-issues. Ran is kind-hearted, superstitious, a bit old-fashioned, calm, emotionaly vulnerable but can kick your ass to the moon. Kazuha is a bit steriotypical Tsundere. The only sources about Akemi come her former boyfriend and her sister who both were in the BO so we can't take her personality for granted. Also, she was cold-hearted enough to rob a bank and see two people die without panicing (and she was at least parly involved in both) I also don't see too many similarities between Sonoko and Yukiko expect they are both extroverted. While Yukiko is more childish, Sonoko has the personality of an average teenage girl who thinks she acts "mature". I am not going into detail how the males are different. I have alreday spent at least half an hour on my post and there are many other replies to come.
Oh, and Satou/Takagi isn't just a *sluight* subversion of your "Trope" (if you say trope, then please also send a link) Satou is an action girl while Takagi is the action survivor/iron woobie http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ActionGirl http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... onSurvivor http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IronWoobie

P6)a) meaning she doesn't just talk like an 80-year old. He didn't mean "girly" like "female" but "childish"
b) 1) his mother likes to tease so he doesn't pay much attention to it. 2) The stereotype of men having no clue about the feelings of women doesn't come from nowhere. Women are wired to read and understand the feelings of others. Men aren't. Haibara gnerally doesn't have her heart on her thoung so...
c) 1) when did he say that? 2) What should he say to her? "No, I don't like you, piss off"? Remember that Genta could crush him three times. When he talks to Mitsuhiko, it is more like: "As a friend, don't try. That's not healthy" in a "not even I know what I got involved into"-fashion.
c2) One is his mother, one is his possible future mother in law and one created a poison that is untracable and nearly killed him. Hm...

P7) Haven't read much of Death Note jet.
P8) Don't know BBC!Sherlock

Don't be daft.  It's part of growing up. You cannot be expected to commit yourself unless you've been out in the real world long enough to know what's best for you.  "Animals"?!WTF! How old are you?

*feels personally insulted*

Idiot. Are you saying that -as in OVA 9- if your lover hasn't shown himself for 10 years, you would choose to remain a spinster-and as in Ran's case- a virgin, and NOT move on? Well, good for you, I'm sure. I shouldn't want any woman to put up with this non-sense, we already have to make enough sacrifices in relationships/gender politics as it were  >:(

Bloody hell... wherever did I mention "harems" or "lechery". Your comprehension skills are astounding, my dear. Yes, people should pursue monogamous  relationships. No, "one and only love" does not work IRL, if you aren't getting any satisfaction from the relationship, if your partner is hardly around, you can end it and move on with another without being deemed "an animal". If your partner dies or disappears, you can learn to love someone else in time.

The ISSUE in Ran's case is that her ENTIRE EXISTENCE is for/around Kudo. It's either " What would Shinichi do?" or " Shinichi would NEVER allow this!" or "Shinichi wouldn't like me to do this." or "I have to live because Shinichi asked me to wait for him(M5)" It's like she has/is nothing without him, and that's when her faithfully waiting for him bypasses "outdated" and becomes "WRONG".

*ignores insults* *not much left*
P1) On the bright side, she hasn't killed herself! Ok, imagine this: For some reason you are trapped somewhere and can't come home and hardly communicate home. You think it is going to last for a short time and tell someone you love to wait for you and they agree. It gets harder and harder for you to communicate and you finally realise you aren't going to come home soon. But after some years, you actually get free and the only thing that has been keeping you alive is the thought about that loved one. But when you get back, you find your loved one-happy with their family, not thinking of you and not even answering their phone for you. You would be heartbrocen. It isn't like this in Shinichi's case but for Ran it would look that way and she is sensible enough not to wish that for anyone, especially someone she loves or has loved.
You said you wouldn't want any woman to put up with that. Would you let a man put up with that and call him unfaithfull if he got another woman?
And please don't try to make this into a political discussion.

P2) My grandparents on my father's side have celebrated their golden marriage this christmas, on the other side, they are going to celebrate their diamond one this year. my two aunts (father's side) have both married their first boyfriends and are still together with them, my father only married his second girlfriend because his first one was nuts.
The relationships aren't always perfect but non is and they are still all together. The only divorce in the entire family is my cousin (mother's side) I am sorry for you if your family had a lot of divorces and break-ups but you can find a partner with whom you can stick together for the rest of your life and sometimes someone is lucky enough that that person is your fist bo/girlfriend.
Shinichi neither died, nor disappeared, Ran is aware that he is still alive somewhere but for some reason has lost contact.

P3) Again, we see the entire thing from Conan's perspective and aditionally something that is related to him.

I know you should not doubble-post but they are becomming too big for me (and my laptop). (MEaning this was only part one)

[Aokochan]

@Borealis: I agree with everything you said. Some of the things you said were exactly my thoughts!