Translation of gin's private

[TheBlind]

[quote="Nyarl"]
I suppose there's not much difference once the “there is a possibilityâ€

[TheBlind]

Gin is more careful then other detectives/members, in the locker room accident, he even searched inside the lockers which made him look like a moron.

. But he was a moron that was right.

[Abs.]

Gin is more careful then other detectives/members, in the locker room accident, he even searched inside the lockers which made him look like a moron.

. But he was a moron that was right.

Seriously, I can't believe he didn't hear Conan's breathing.  I mean, COME ON, he was all breathing heavily and with the locker amplifying/echoing the noise...

He heard Sherry's breathing in the damn chimney...

[ranger]

Yeah, I  think Gin knew someone was hiding in the lockers, but he decided to play it off...

it just seems so un-Gin for him to just giveup, definetely reminiscent of Ai hiding in the chimney

[96383]

I'm impressed. This is something we can talk for years. 

by the way I have a question - recently I have seen some arcticle on some site about Gin and his real name and it said something about a panel around volume 28(or so)where some male name is besides Shihos in a guestbook or something
I've even searched this but I have no idea what this article was talking about and I doubt it's true but just to be on the safe side - does anybody has an idea what that was about? 

You're referring to the Mermaid Case aka And Then There Were No Mermaids.  From what I've gathered, it's 1/2 from the anime and 1/2 from the manga - and the name is not directly beside Shiho's.  Pure speculation at this point, I'm afraid.

No, it is officially confirmed in Aoyama's own words.
It came from an interview from one guide book where Aoyama was asked whether Gin and Vodka had real name, which he replied yes before referring to that guestbook.
Actually you won't see (what supposed to be) Gin's given name, thanks to Aoyama-sensei he revealed it in the interview.

I put "what supposed to be" there because I just have a strange feeling about a guy like him would sign up his real name everywhere. It could be a fake name, or it could be that he has too much confidence and doesn't mind leaking a bit out.

I don't think Aoyama will clear this up, but I can't help wondering what the heck were they doing on that island.
Sightseeing? Now someone please stop me before I laugh to dead. 

.
My preferred pairing of these two would be if Gin acted as a big brother/mentor to Shiho while in the B.O. Which is why he's so intrigued as to why she escaped and why he wants her dead.

Did you notice that Shiho is a sharp-shooter?
For no apparent reason, Gin is on the top of my list for "who taught Shiho to shoot?"
This way I find it easier to imagine how a man like Gin would interact to a girl like Shiho. One common interest to start, and that's it.

[Kor]

that would be weird.

Gin: Hey Shiho, wanna see my gun?
Shiho hesitates...

[TheBlind]

No, it is officially confirmed in Aoyama's own words.
It came from an interview from one guide book where Aoyama was asked whether Gin and Vodka had real name, which he replied yes before referring to that guestbook.
Actually you won't see (what supposed to be) Gin's given name, thanks to Aoyama-sensei he revealed it in the interview.

What do you mean here. Did he actually refer to the guest book while answering the question or did someone bring up the guest book and he just talked around it?

Did you notice that Shiho is a sharp-shooter?
For no apparent reason, Gin is on the top of my list for "who taught Shiho to shoot?"
This way I find it easier to imagine how a man like Gin would interact to a girl like Shiho. One common interest to start, and that's it.

She was part of an evil organization. I'm sure shooting lessons were part of her program, right after her "how to lie perfectly" lessons. .

Besides, she's only used a gun once and this was on a still target. That's not enough to gauge the level of her marksmanship(though I have no trouble believing she's above average).

[Abs.]

No, it is officially confirmed in Aoyama's own words.
It came from an interview from one guide book where Aoyama was asked whether Gin and Vodka had real name, which he replied yes before referring to that guestbook.

Interesting.  So I take it the order (from right to left) is Gin, Vodka, Sherry?  As in, 魚塚三郎 = Vodka?

[Nyarl]

But you did raise a very good question, so I'll throw it back at you. What precedent does Gin have to think Shiho would be at that hotel if he's going on his knowing of her?
The just left the B.O. Shiho we saw/know always chose the "safe move", even if it meant running away. So why would Gin even use his "knowing" of her in his deduction when it would only cause a contradiction?

Because he knows more about her motivations than we do, and one of the main points of the story was to give us that hint?

I find it funny that you frown upon me using Haibara's own words as evidence but then turned around and submit Gin's words as evidence.

All narrators are equally reliable? Seems a pretty obvious to me that Gin would have no reason to lie about how sure he was Sherry would show up even after her bug was discovered. Of course, he was overconfident, because if Conan never told Haibara that the drug was mentioned, Gin really would have been wrong.

She didn't feel guilty when Gin was using it to kill people,she was actually including his killings in her research. The only thing that changed was Conan breaking her defense and opening her eyes to the possibility that maybe she does hold a bit of responsibility for the deaths. But like I said, Gin could NEVER account for that change if he was going off his knowing of her and that means the Shiho Gin knows would of never shown at that hotel. She wouldn't feel responsible.

If you are going to count her claims to Conan as reliable narrative you should remember that she claimed that she betrayed the Org. partly because they started using the drug on people (without her consent (18.9p~7)). Maybe Gin knows that actually did feel very bad about that. I do think wanting to continue her family's/her own research is the most likely reason, though (and that she was more upset the Org. didn't clear the use of the drug with her than what they used it for*).

If Gin knew all this he would of used the APTX4869 to lure Shiho out after she escaped or inform Pisco during the original briefing that Shiho might approach him(due to him caring the drug). But seeing that he showed no signs of ever thinking of such a plan and the fact that he re-briefed Pisco after finding his new evidence...I think it's safe to say he didn't know any of what you are trying to propose.

He'd need to know she's listening to even bother trying such a trap, unless he wants to risk exposing the Org. with some high profile media stunt. He's not relying on her drug obsession to give her a magic drug detection sense, either. Inform, not supplant.

* Need to revise my "Org. is O'ist/Nietzschean egoist gang" idea and post it here sometime. I've seen the bots translate Shiho literally as "will preservation" too many times to ignore.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

But you did raise a very good question, so I'll throw it back at you. What precedent does Gin have to think Shiho would be at that hotel if he's going on his knowing of her?
The just left the B.O. Shiho we saw/know always chose the "safe move", even if it meant running away. So why would Gin even use his "knowing" of her in his deduction when it would only cause a contradiction?

Shiho definitely has not always chosen the safe move. She saw fit to halt her research in protest likely knowing she would face severe consequences including death. The Org probably warned her given that there is a period of time between when her sister died and when she escaped. She would not have been sitting in the gas chamber all that while. The other gutsy thing she did was run away successfully. Shiho is not Kaito Kid, so basically her escape came out of nowhere when you look at it from the syndicate's perspective. Gin noted during Haibara's appearance case (the fake money one) that the org was undergoing a cleansing operation. Shiho had no accomplices since her escape was dumb luck. Assuming the org didn't get any false positives in the internal investigation, to them she either managed it on her own or recruited outside help under their nose. In the syndicate's perspective both of those actions are pretty audacious on her part..

It's much more likely that Gin knows that she wants to continue her parents' research. The other possibility is that Gin knows that she knows that the Org. plans to use the drug in a massive attack which she would feel somewhat responsible for*, and thus would want to research an antidote or prophylaxis to counter. From his POV, it'd be irrational to want to deal with the drug otherwise. She can't expect to randomly bump into Org. assassinations in time deliver an antidote to a victim or prevent the Org. from using the drug in the first place, and presumably Gin doesn't know about the side effect.

If Gin knew all this he would of used the APTX4869 to lure Shiho out after she escaped or inform Pisco during the original briefing that Shiho might approach him(due to him caring the drug). But seeing that he showed no signs of ever thinking of such a plan and the fact that he re-briefed Pisco after finding his new evidence...I think it's safe to say he didn't know any of what you are trying to propose.

BUT now that he has evidence that shows Shiho is willingly to put her life in immediate danger to get something(most likely that drug),these scenarios could become a possibility in his head but don't put the cart before the horse.

Gin did warn Pisco that he thinks Shiho is after the drug. What I find confusing though is that after he finished the call and was telling Vodka she would definitely show up because she is that type of person, Gin then said "she will definitely come and stop us, not even knowing that we will be waiting for her." Why would Gin think Shiho wouldn't know he would show up... he just destroyed the tracker and the transmitter. This line of his doesn't make sense.

Also don't forget the third possibility. From the org's point of view, it is possible that she managed to recruit outside help to escape the gas chamber (or whatever that room was). Given the org's known enemy, the FBI, I can see Gin thinking that she contacted them somehow and asked them to help her out. Also she has an indirect connection to one of the members, Akai Shuuichi, through her sister. Therefore it is plausible that in return for helping her escape, the FBI wants information on the drug she was developing. Shiho has not demonstrated any skill in inventions like Agasa, so Gin, upon finding the bug, might think that she got the device from whoever she is working with. I am surprised that Gin didn't take into account any of her partners at the party showing up and messing with his plans. Perhaps since Gin and Vodka easily snuck in without being detained, neither Vermouth nor Pisco informed them of potential accomplices (V and P were tied up by the investigation after all and I don't think Gin knew that at the time), and Gin caught Shiho in the chimney unguarded caused him to lower his guard a bit...

There is one more bit of evidence showing that it is unusual Gin knows Shiho so well. He is more familiar with her than simple acquaintances would know each other since he can predict her movements based on her personality and motivations. Even though they are both in the org, they have completely different lines of work and it doesn't seem like they would overlap much. Shiho hardly knew most of the other agents in non-science related positions. She hadn't met Pisco since she was a baby, she had only heard of Korn and Chianti, and hadn't heard of Kir. Bourbon is new and thus doesn't count. Conan never asked about Tequila. Vermouth likely had a relationship to the parents because of her her apparent aging wonkiness despite not being in science. Gin is on the assassination side of things, so it is anomalous how well he seems to know her given how she doesn't know much about anyone else outside of the research branch.

[TheBlind]

Shiho definitely has not always chosen the safe move. She saw fit to halt her research in protest likely knowing she would face severe consequences including death. The Org probably warned her given that there is a period of time between when her sister died and when she escaped. She would not have been sitting in the gas chamber all that while.

Exactly. The non-safe move would of been to halt her research immediately with the assumption that the Organization was behind Akemi's death but things didn't seem to occur this way. It looked it Shiho took a while to become uncooperative with the Organization after finding about her sister's death. We can never really know what motivated her to wait so long(looking for evidence to confirm her assumption, or something similar) but the point is she waited, which can be interpreted in a safe move.

The other gutsy thing she did was run away successfully.
Shiho is not Kaito Kid, so basically her escape came out of nowhere when you look at it from the syndicate's perspective. Gin noted during Haibara's appearance case (the fake money one) that the org was undergoing a cleansing operation. Shiho had no accomplices since her escape was dumb luck. Assuming the org didn't get any false positives in the internal investigation, to them she either managed it on her own or recruited outside help under their nose. In the syndicate's perspective both of those actions are pretty audacious on her part..

This is also another "safe move" in the eyes of the B.O. She managed to escape but did not bother to take any valuable information/evidence or report anything to the police, newspaper, or media. As far as the Organization is concerned, she foresaw that she was going to be killed and escaped into hiding while keeping her mouth shut to not draw attention to herself. This is why Gin was so surprised Shiho actually approached him and gave up her safety.

Gin did warn Pisco that he thinks Shiho is after the drug. What I find confusing though is that after he finished the call and was telling Vodka she would definitely show up because she is that type of person, Gin then said "she will definitely come and stop us, not even knowing that we will be waiting for her." Why would Gin think Shiho wouldn't know he would show up... he just destroyed the tracker and the transmitter. This line of his doesn't make sense.

Gin warned Pisco during the re-briefing, not the original one. Shiho wasn't even a factor in his mind during the original briefing.

Also don't forget the third possibility. From the org's point of view, it is possible that she managed to recruit outside help to escape the gas chamber (or whatever that room was). Given the org's known enemy, the FBI, I can see Gin thinking that she contacted them somehow and asked them to help her out. Also she has an indirect connection to one of the members, Akai Shuuichi, through her sister. Therefore it is plausible that in return for helping her escape, the FBI wants information on the drug she was developing. Shiho has not demonstrated any skill in inventions like Agasa, so Gin, upon finding the bug, might think that she got the device from whoever she is working with. I am surprised that Gin didn't take into account any of her partners at the party showing up and messing with his plans. Perhaps since Gin and Vodka easily snuck in without being detained, neither Vermouth nor Pisco informed them of potential accomplices (V and P were tied up by the investigation after all and I don't think Gin knew that at the time), and Gin caught Shiho in the chimney unguarded caused him to lower his guard a bit...

This is a yes and a no for me. Gin was surprised that someone actually came to help her at the end of the case because there was probably evidence that Shiho didn't use any inside or outside help for her escape. That's the only reason I see why he wouldn't take into account an accomplice...unless Gosho just wanted to built up drama.

The bug wouldn't be much of a concern for Gin as there are many possible ways for Shiho obtaining one, like buying one. I doubt he would immediately think that the bug must of came from an accomplice or Akai when there far more reasonable methods of explaining her possession of one.

There is one more bit of evidence that it is unusual Gin knows Shiho so well. He is more familiar with her than simple acquaintances would know each other since he can predict her movements based on her personality and motivations.

I actually thought I did a good job in showing that Gin was basing those predictions off the evidence. I'm still on the side that Gin just used his great detective brain to stay ahead of Shiho and showed why him factoring in what he knows about B.O. Shiho would actually hinder his predictions.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

I actually thought I did a good job in showing that Gin was basing those predictions off the evidence. I'm still on the side that Gin just used his great detective brain to stay ahead of Shiho and showed why him factoring in what he knows about B.O. Shiho would actually hinder his predictions.

I am skeptical of your viewpoints on this. You can spin the time it took her to protest as precaution, but the very act of protesting in the face of death is undeniably a non-safe move. Also, remember that Shiho was locked in a gas chamber and stripped of anything compromising (except the overlooked APTX pill she pocketed). It is highly plausible that Gin thought she intended to take valuable information with her if she had the opportunity. That's why they set a fire in the pharmaceutical company building in the first place: because they were afraid she might leak something. Finally we can't be sure that the room she was locked in and where she worked were the same place. They burnt the place where she worked right away so she may not have even had time to get there to save anything. She has plenty of damaging info in her head anyway. Also Conan has already pointed out the futility of reporting the existence of the organization to the news or the police since they seem like they aren't capable of handling it yet. Haibara made the same decision as Conan, so that doesn't mean that it's "safe," only practical.

Also your view that Gin's predictions are based off her previous actions and do not require him to know her any more than in just passing contradicts with your argument that she only makes safe moves in the eyes of the B.O. If she only makes safe moves, then her approaching Gin first doesn't mesh with her past behavior. She would know her bug was discovered since it stopped signaling when Gin crushed it. From Gin's perspective, Shiho doesn't know that Gin knows it was her bug (vs. someone else's), but I'm sure he thinks that she expects Gin and friends to show up at the farewell party to investigate who planted it. If she had been playing it safe before then, even if there was one contradicting action; that doesn't warrant a 180 on his expectations of her behavior unless he knows her personality better than that. Gin would not say with confidence that she would definitely come if he only thought she was throwing safe tiles.

Gin warned Pisco during the re-briefing, not the original one. Shiho wasn't even a factor in his mind during the original briefing.

Right, because Gin didn't think Shiho would know about it since the "job" was arranged without her knowledge. If he expected her to know, precautions would have been taken or he might have considered planning a trap. And when he found out she knew, he did take precautions and plan a trap.

[TheBlind]

Because he knows more about her motivations than we do, and one of the main points of the story was to give us that hint?

See now you are just being silly. .
You can't place the cart before the horse again. You can't assume that Gin knows Shiho's motivations more than the viewer is being told when you can't even prove that Gin didn't use evidence or logic to predict Shiho's movements in the first place. That's like calling "black magic" in a rock-paper-scissor game, not fair and a very poor argument.

All narrators are equally reliable?

And Gin is a more reliable narrator than Haibara why?
Don't tell me you are going to bring up the events where Haibara is clearly lying/joking to somehow justify that Gin's words supersede Shiho's when the topic is herself.

Seems a pretty obvious to me that Gin would have no reason to lie about how sure he was Sherry would show up even after her bug was discovered.

Why would Gin being wrong be a lie?
It's not like he knows there are people watching him and using his words as canon.
He was overconfident because that's what the evidence pointed to. Again, Gin was confident Conan wasn't in that locker during the "locker event" but that doesn't make him a liar. It just means he had no solid evidence or deduction to fully open that locker and reveal that Conan was in it. In the "hotel event", he had enough evidence and acted upon it.

Of course, he was overconfident, because if Conan never told Haibara that the drug was mentioned, Gin really would have been wrong.

I don't understand what you mean here.

If you are going to count her claims to Conan as reliable narrative you should remember that she claimed that she betrayed the Org. partly because they started using the drug on people (without her consent (18.9p~7)). Maybe Gin knows that actually did feel very bad about that. I do think wanting to continue her family's/her own research is the most likely reason, though (and that she was more upset the Org. didn't clear the use of the drug with her than what they used it for*).

Given that two pages later she denied any responsibilities in those killings(and was genuinely surprised to be called a murderer),  you can't assume she felt bad. Another explanation,which the anime supports, is as a scientist she was upset that the Organization was using her incomplete drug as a killing tool. This doesn't mean she necessarily felt anything for the people being killed by it as she was using them as part of her data.

He'd need to know she's listening to even bother trying such a trap, unless he wants to risk exposing the Org. with some high profile media stunt. He's not relying on her drug obsession to give her a magic drug detection sense, either. Inform, not supplant.

If he knew what you claimed, he could of easily dropped the trap after finding the listening device in his car instead of destroying it. You also still didn't explain why he wouldn't inform Pisco of Shiho's possible presence during the initial briefing if he knew what you claim.

[Chekhov MacGuffin]

Because he knows more about her motivations than we do, and one of the main points of the story was to give us that hint?

See now you are just being silly. .
You can't place the cart before the horse again. You can't assume that Gin knows Shiho's motivations more than the viewer is being told when you can't even prove that Gin didn't use evidence or logic to predict Shiho's movements in the first place. That's like calling "black magic" in a rock-paper-scissor game, not fair and a very poor argument.

Sorry to jump in someone else's argument, but using evidence to predict her actions and having more-intimate-than-passing-acquaintances knowledge of someone are not mutually exclusive. He could be using both.

Of course, he was overconfident, because if Conan never told Haibara that the drug was mentioned, Gin really would have been wrong.

I don't understand what you mean here.

Haibara was angling towards NOT going to the party, a move which would have defied Gin's predictions as he didn't take into account an accomplice of hers calling the shots, until Conan mentioned the APTX 4869 was at the party. Then she wanted to go.

He'd need to know she's listening to even bother trying such a trap, unless he wants to risk exposing the Org. with some high profile media stunt. He's not relying on her drug obsession to give her a magic drug detection sense, either. Inform, not supplant.

If he knew what you claimed, he could of easily dropped the trap after finding the listening device in his car instead of destroying it. You also still didn't explain why he wouldn't inform Pisco of Shiho's possible presence during the initial briefing if he knew what you claim.

You might have missed it because of an edit conflict, but in my above post I noted that Gin didn't think Shiho would know about the party target since the "job" was arranged without her knowledge. If he expected her to know, precautions would have been taken or he might have considered planning a trap. And when he found out she knew, he did take precautions and plan a trap.

[TheBlind]

I am skeptical of your viewpoints on this. You can spin the time it took her to protest as precaution, but the very act of protesting in the face of death is undeniably a non-safe move. Also, remember that Shiho was locked in a gas chamber and stripped of anything compromising (except the overlooked APTX pill she pocketed). It is highly plausible that Gin thought she intended to take valuable information with her if she had the opportunity. That's why they burnt the pharmaceutical company in the first place: because they were afraid she might leak something. Finally we can't be sure that the room she was locked in and where she worked were the same place. They burnt the place where she worked right away so she may not have even had time to get there to save anything. She has plenty of damaging info in her head anyway. Also Conan has already pointed out the futility of reporting the existence of the organization to the news or the police since they seem like they aren't capable of handling it yet. Haibara made the same decision as Conan, so that doesn't mean that it's "safe," only practical.

According to Shiho, she knew that the Organization killed her sister but did not fully protest until she realized they were never going to give her an official answer as to why.
Like I said, this can be interpreted as a "safe move" in the eyes of the B.O.(not saying I believe this is a safe move) because of the fact that she waited so long to stop her research.

As for the location of her "chamber", you might have a point. The manga never states the location where she was locked up but the anime states it was a "small room in the lab". In that scenario, she would have(in B.O. eyes) ample time and opportunity to steal valuable research data and incriminating evidence after her escape. Also everything related to her was destroyed immediately after her escape was noticed, making things difficult for us the viewer. We have nothing to go by as to when the B.O. discovered she was gone, so there might of been enough time for her to recover information even if she was kept in a separate place.

Finally Conan's reason for keeping the police out has nothing to do with the B.O.'s expectations of Shiho. Conan's main reason for not revealing anything about the B.O. to the police was because they originally didn't believe him due to his child state. After he saw was he was truly facing, this reason was replaced by the lack of evidence to take down such a giant. Shiho(in the B.O. eyes) doesn't have the problem as she's an adult and has valuable information in her brain about the Organization. Enough to get papers selling even if the police decides to bury it due to B.O. influence. Point is her NEVER making the attempt gives reason to the B.O. to believe Shiho decided to stick with the safest move in staying hidden.

Also your view that Gin's predictions are based off her previous actions and do not require him to know her any more than in just passing contradicts with your argument that she only makes safe moves in the eyes of the B.O. If she only makes safe moves, then her approaching Gin first doesn't mesh with her past behavior. She would know her bug was discovered since it stopped signaling when Gin crushed it.

Yes, which is why Gin was so surprised she would make that move. So with that, he logically thought of the only thing that the B.O. has that would make Shiho do something that drastic for her character, which would be APTX4869.

From Gin's perspective, Shiho doesn't know that Gin knows it was her bug (vs. someone else's), but I'm sure he thinks that she expects Gin and friends to show up at the farewell party to investigate who planted it. If she had been playing it safe before then, even if there was one contradicting action; that doesn't warrant a 180 on his expectations of her behavior unless he knows her personality better than that. Gin would not say with confidence that she would definitely come if he only thought she was throwing safe tiles.

You said it yourself. Gin never leaked his triumph card which is why he was so confident Shiho would be at that hotel because he gave her a small window as a trap. Also, like I said before, Shiho placing that bug on him tells Gin that she's willing to step foot in that hotel to recover something related to APTX4869(which he would of been wrong off anyway).

Right, because Gin didn't think Shiho would know about it since the "job" was arranged without her knowledge. If he expected her to know, precautions would have been taken or he might have considered planning a trap. And when he found out she knew, he did take precautions and plan a trap.

Which was my point to Nyarl who brought up the issue that there was a possibility of Gin knowing* before hand.

*Of Shiho's desire for the drug before the bug was found.