Unpopular Opinions about the Detective Conan

[irishock]

-Car landing during the end of the 5th movie was BS
-Characters have grown stale for the most part
-Mysteries pre-Haibara were better

[Conan-chandesune]

-Car landing during the end of the 5th movie was BS
-Characters have grown stale for the most part
-Mysteries pre-Haibara were better

Why you say so bro? The most recent completed mystery in the manga was good. I think we have grown better at deduction, not the other way round. Also, characters are not stale at all.

Spoiler:

I found the recent chapters compelling in the terms of characters too. Makoto, Kid, and even Sonoko.

I rest my case. Peace!!

[k11chi]

-Car landing during the end of the 5th movie was BS
-Characters have grown stale for the most part
-Mysteries pre-Haibara were better

Why you say so bro? The most recent completed mystery in the manga was good. I think we have grown better at deduction, not the other way round. Also, characters are not stale at all. I found the recent chapters compelling in the terms of characters too. Makoto, Kid, and even Sonoko. I rest my case. Peace!!

Well, it´s a thread about unpopular opinions after all.

Spoiler:

At the moment characters Amuro, Sera, Subaru, Conan, Makoto are very interesting and I really want to see Amuro appear again, rather sooner than later.

[Kudo Shinchi]

Spoiler:

I don't think the Mystery Train case was as poorly executed as some make it out to be. It certainly wasn't the best BO confrontation, but it was still great in its own right. A good mystery case, good suspense, revisiting of old plot points like the Itakura case and Elena's tapes, the long awaited showdown between Yukiko and Vermouth, and all around good action. It seems most of the complaints surrounding it come from Kid's involvement and Conan's plan, but I fail to see Kid as a plot device in this case because his appearance was foreshadowed extensively, so he didn't come out of thin air. Conan's plan was very imperfect and he was lucky it succeeded, but I don't mind that because its realistic; he made it up on the go. After all, he didn't know the BO would be on the train, did he? He couldn't have planned it in advance.

Also, its not like Conan got away with blackmailing a criminal into helping him; he's going to pay for it, because it was thanks to Kid talking too much that Akai had to interfere, which led to Bourbon becoming suspicious of Akai's death once again despite the evidence saying otherwise, and also led to him remaining close to Conan, putting everyone in danger. His actions had consequences.

Also, I disagree with the notion that Conan is a Gary Stu or male Mary Sue. He's far from being a perfect character. Yes, he solves every case he stumbles into, but that's his strength; he's a genius detective. Besides, unlike Yuusaku, he actually has to investigate, think hard, and put the pieces together to arrive at a conclusion. More so, he isn't all-knowing; he's been caught off-guard before, most notably when during the Black Footprint case, when his carelessness resulted in him being cornered by Gin in a locker; only luck, not his own abilities, saved him then. Similarly, Vermouth successfully got away from him in the climax of the Vermouth arc, destroying his recording device and forcing him to spend an entire other arc trying to get the boss's email address. Even in cases he has messed up; the hole in his deduction in the Nocturne case led to him being kidnapped by the culprit, and it took Okiya, Sera, and Amuro working together to save him.

More so, he has an abundance of character flaws; he's arrogant, although less so as Conan, he's reckless at times, he's secretive, paranoid, mostly untrusting, incorrectly feels as though he can handle anything alone, he's a perfectionist (a trait which which caused his failure to propose to Ran during Desperate Revival, since he wanted to wait until just the right moment and waited too long), he has difficulty forming close relationships (though this is being cured by his time as Conan), and so on. He is a bit hypocritical, and is willing to break the law to see justice done, or at times take the law into his own hands (DB barbeque case. Also, he reacts realistically as a human being to tough situations. When there was a chance that his idol Ray Curtis could be a murderer, he vehemently denied such a possibility, and spent most of that case in denial. When he did confront Ray, he had a hard time keeping his composure and became mildly depressed for a bit afterwards. So my point is, he's a more realistic character than he seems to be given credit for.

[Kor]

Well, it´s a thread about unpopular opinions after all.

While that's true, I think this thread is much more interesting when people discuss and/or at least explain their opinions with examples and stuff. Not saying people are obligated to do so, though.

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@Kudo Shinchi

Spoiler:

A plot device can be foreshadowed, but it will still be a plot device. Even if Peter Jackson foreshadowed the Army of the Dead or the eagles in the LOTR movies (I'm referring to the movies because I don't completely remember how they were handled in the books), those were still devices to solve problems the protagonists couldn't have solved on their own.
As far as it goes with the consequences of the case, what I originally referred to was the fact there is seemingly no consequence as far as Kid's concerned. The relationship between him and Conan didn't really change. According to a Gosho's interview (correct me if I'm wrong), Kid isn't going to be integrated into the plot and will not be appearing in any more B.O. cases. So really, if there are no consequences as far as Kid's character is concerned, then he was really there to solve a problem and nothing more than that. Also, what Chekhov said - Conan put his company at risk, and this whole thing relied mostly on luck.

On your notion that the case was good because it revisited old plot points, a showdown and good action, etc. I'm gonna have to ask: Yeah, and?
This case could have had all of the above AND being executed better. It's not like Gosho had to do it the way he did. He's the writer, he could have handled the whole thing better and not make it rely on convenience or luck. Just because it was a B.O. confrontation and somewhat advanced the plot, doesn't mean I should forgive its flaws.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Spoiler:

Just because the culprit or Conan didnt use "that" trick instead of "this" hardly make it a flaw. Obviously Conan would have used his boots and tranquilizer if Kid wasnt there but there´s nothing much you can do on a highspeed train.

Spoiler:

I don't like to resort to meta arguments, but Kid's only role in that case was to provide a solution to the problem. The only plan Conan presented was the one which involved Kid. Also, speculating what Conan would have done isn't an argument, since this is purely a speculation based on your imagination.
If there are no consequences to Conan's actions and Kid's involvement, then it was one of the lazier ways Gosho chose to resolve a B.O. encounter.

Also, you're implying Conan had another plan but still chose to risk Kid's life or to make him involved in some way.

If taking a risk makes the trick unusable then i´m mickey mouse. A vase not breaking? Lol.

We can have a discussion without being so snarky.

Whatever believe what you will but note this has nothing to do with this thread to begin with...

Togop said he thinks some of the latest cases were flawed. That's an opinion. Someone asked for examples and he provided some examples. You decided to argue against his examples and he replied.
There's nothing wrong with such a discussion here.

Spoiler:

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, Gosho once said in an interview that KID won't be involved in BO cases (way before the mystery train).
But KID's father taught Vermouth and Yukiko, so KID is always involved passive with the BO plot because of that. So even if Gosho says he won't use KID for the BO anymore, it could just mean that KID won't be showing up to disguise as someone. But he can still be used passively maybe.

I also thought that there wasn't a real explanation/conclusion for the mystery train yet. We saw the solution for the murder. But why Okiya, Yukiko and co were there and what they exactly planed (discussions between Conan and Okiya for example) weren't shown.
So I thought that there would be more explained about it in the future? :V (Because Okiya's identity wasn't fully revealed yet either. In the sense of: "Hi! I'm Akai" like Bourbon/Amuro did :x) But maybe I'm wrong.

Spoiler:

Chek, about the "realistic behavior of the two bullets" part, you DID say to follow plot-logic in such cases and plot logic dictated the entire train case...............................

Spoiler:

I agree that following plot logic is a good thing, put I contend your assumption "plot logic dictated the entire train case."

Following plot logic would be saying it's okay to accept Vermouth has an aging problem because APTX exists and already demolished the-people-should-age-normally presumption. Boarding the train is ignoring common sense (and not boarding is a perfectly valid common sense option) for the sake of making drama. For all of Conan's words about not wanting to put Ran in danger, he sure ignored them this time. It's not like practical solutions don't exist in DC, Sera already attempted to reach a safe practical end in the Mouri Agency Hostage Crisis by getting the hostage taker shot, and damn the case anyway.

The main problem with the train case I think is that Conan went out of character in terms of how he managed it. He didn't know all the risks, and instead of trying to mitigate them as best he can like he usually does (See him locking Haibara in the basement in the Vermouth arc and stirring up the crowd around Scar Akai) he decided to risk his loved ones. Furthermore the crux of his plan relied on nabbing and forcing Kaitou Kid, one of Conan's strongest and most unpredictable opponents, to cooperate. It's like Conan KNEW that it was going to be Vermouth and Bourbon only and there would time to stop the train before something else bad happened to it. Precognitive Conan is not plot logic.

Spoiler:

I agree too, it was a bit weaker. But there is the general problem with BO cases. Because if Gosho wants Conan to make a perfect plan, he'd need insider info on the BO. But Conan can't get every info, otherwise the BO will seem too weak :/ Thus those BO cases are more "luck" oriented in general imo.
Because the BO could always just throw bombs or poisonous gas at Conan on a whim XD

And I think Conan took Ran and co with him, so that Haibara won't get suspicious. But yeah, that's still a shitty reason to bring everyone in danger :x But then again, he can't just live every day in fear, shut in everyone into the basement and read some Sherlock Holmes D:

[Kudo Shinchi]

Spoiler:

A plot device can be foreshadowed, but it will still be a plot device. Even if Peter Jackson foreshadowed the Army of the Dead or the eagles in the LOTR movies (I'm referring to the movies because I don't completely remember how they were handled in the books), those were still devices to solve problems the protagonists couldn't have solved on their own.
As far as it goes with the consequences of the case, what I originally referred to was the fact there is seemingly no consequence as far as Kid's concerned. The relationship between him and Conan didn't really change. According to a Gosho's interview (correct me if I'm wrong), Kid isn't going to be integrated into the plot and will not be appearing in any more B.O. cases. So really, if there are no consequences as far as Kid's character is concerned, then he was really there to solve a problem and nothing more than that. Also, what Chekhov said - Conan put his company at risk, and this whole thing relied mostly on luck.

On your notion that the case was good because it revisited old plot points, a showdown and good action, etc. I'm gonna have to ask: Yeah, and?
This case could have had all of the above AND being executed better. It's not like Gosho had to do it the way he did. He's the writer, he could have handled the whole thing better and not make it rely on convenience or luck. Just because it was a B.O. confrontation and somewhat advanced the plot, doesn't mean I should forgive its flaws.

I do believe I agreed that the case could have been handled better and that the success of Conan's plan relied on luck, so we're together on that. What I was saying is that I don't see the case being as bad as some make it out to be. Conan's plan being imperfect and relying on luck is I see as actually being a good thing, as its realistic that it wouldn't be good since he made it up on the fly. More so, it didn't go without a hitch, since because of Kid's blunder Bourbon began to re investigate Akai's supposed death.

Now, I think that many have forgotten that the MT case is not the first time that Kid's story crossed paths with the BO. Toichi, the original Kaitou Kid, taught Vermouth her disguising skills in the first place, after all. Also, the Night Baron character that Yuusaku created which was pretty obviously based on Kid, is used as a name for a BO virus. This is simply the first time Kid is involved so directly, but its not like he had zero ties with the BO before this. So involving him with the BO isn't really that much of a plot device; if he never affects the BO plot again it could be argued that yes, his appearance was a mere plot device, but we don't know that he won't. If I remember correctly, his exact words were that Kid probably won't appear again. He's not sure, so he could be considering putting him in again. And regardless of what Gosho says, the last panel with Kid in the MT case seemed to be foreshadowing something...

Also, looking at the case, I'm not sure what Gosho could have done too differently. Its clear his objective was having Sherry fake her death by the end of it. Vermouth of course wouldn't do it, Yukiko couldn't do it, since she was holed up with Verrmouth. The only master of disguise left with Kid, and since his identity has been subtly involved with the BO in the past, why not? You could argue that Sherry's death could have been faked without resorting to death in an explosion, but it needed to be an explosion or something similar so that the BO wouldn't check for a body in the aftermath, since they'd assume it was destroyed. Also, Kid's blunder was needed as it was what indirectly led to Bourbon's suspicions resurfacing.

A lot of people seem to be writing off the whole case just because of a climax that could have been executed better; I'm not saying to forgive the flaws of the case but to look at its many merits as well. The actual murder case was fun and interesting, which is a major and important aspect since this is a mystery manga/anime, the pacing was smooth and well-done, the interaction between Yukiko and Vermouth was exciting, old plot points were explored in natural ways, the end of the case was foreshadowed adequately; really it was basically the end of the case that was of inferior quality to the rest. Calling a seven-chapter manga case bad when only one the chapters waasn't well-written seems to be a bit much. Of course, if a person thinks the entire case was badly written, climax and all, that's a different story and an opinion they're entitled to.