Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[PT]

Re: Yamamura and Hinder - I added that in my rules already.

As for the groups: that should be a GM call, I think. But GMs should use common sense when picking roles to make sure it's not gonna be too much. It's a balance thing.

I honestly don't care much for Spy or Deduction at all But I dunno what that should be changed to.

As for Heiji/Shinichi/Conan, I kind of see that as the same issue with Ran/Makoto though. People just need to be careful about giving out info.

[Paix672]

I don't really think Pry is overpowered, honestly. I mean, if BO knows you can investigate, they could still figure out if you're a meitantei or police via Observe.

[Kleene Onigiri]

@Pry: xpon said it once, it's kinda like stealing a gun from someone or knowing that person doesn't have a gun XD
But generally, I don't think pry is too overpowered. It's powerful, and strong in some cases, like with Heiji. But you still need other info too in order to figure out a role completely.
But Heiji can still defend against it, when he doesn't say he ca investigate. Usually, when you tell both of your abilities you're narrowed down to 3 roles. Then, 1 observe by the BO you're either a dead Conan or you're Shinichi/Heiji. Then, depending on more info, like shinichi died, or they know conan is in the game etc., it's a dead Heiji XD
But if they only say they can interrogate, Heiji can hide among Eri, Kujo, Shinichi, Conan, Hakuba, Yusaku, Kogoro. And Pry won't help in that case. XD

Pry is also a nice ability for town. But then Gin and Vodka could get problems when they say they can trick/interrogate and then be pryed on D: So in town hands it could be more powerful :V

@deduction/spy: The "problem" was, that BO were found out too fast. Thus making it reusable again quite fast too again.
Especially in big games, the chance that there are a lot of police is high. (and I already kicked out yamato to have 1 arrest and 1 heal less in the game :V)
So a solution could be, to rise the amount of people on the list. To 1/2 or 1/3 of the overall player #.
So, for the last game, there were 31 players. So it's either a list of 15 or of 10.Or in between.
Once the number of players goes down, spy or deduction can't be used if you can't get 10 legitimate people on it (so for spy. there can't be any BO's on it. For deduction, not the person himself etc.)
Since spy and deduction is especially good at the end of the game.
But then the problem arise, that at the end of the game, detect isn't such a good ability anymore as in the beginning. Which makes the role drop in usefulness a lot :V
Anyway, I think PT changed/clarified with spy and deduction, that Gin and snipers can't be on the deduction list, and for spy, that you'll get to know KID and not his disguised role. Also, blamed killings will appear on the list too :V

But revealing a deduction list is always risky for the player too D: He could accidently PM a BO with it, thus revealing himself to the BO *_*

@travel: I don't like the idea with travel Tho I don't like travel in general XD
But with hinder a BO can pose being a traveler now too. Since all actions on him/her will fail (besides arrest maybe).
And giving a BO travel is hard, because there can be a lot of flaws. BO running away from being lynched or begin arrested. Then he can run away so he doesn't have to kill, making others kill faster again :V

[PT]

Anyway, I think PT changed/clarified with spy and deduction, that Gin and snipers can't be on the deduction list

.....No. No, I didn't. Why would I do that?

Okay, Gin is understandable, since I think his killing action blocks it iirc. But the snipers?

[Kleene Onigiri]

Anyway, I think PT changed/clarified with spy and deduction, that Gin and snipers can't be on the deduction list

.....No. No, I didn't. Why would I do that?

Ah, I told you about it and you said you'll look into it. XD That's why the "I think".
But Gin can't be on the deduction list anyway. Because all investigations and even arresting Gin for the killing will be false/fail. Thus, the deduction list can never be solved, thus it should fail completely imo when Gin kills.

Snipers depend. Sniper description is: "Their identity will never be revealed" and the examples on them are made before deduction came in. So if they are never revealed, not by sonoko etc. then I though that applies to deduction too. Meaning deduction would also fail with snipers.
Should be clarified whether you make it like that (thus their identity wont be revealed in any way) or if deduction is a exception.

[PT]

I don't think the snipers should be an exception on the deduction list. Their identity isn't revealed in the case of Sonoko/protectors, but I don't think that should prevent them from being on the deduction list.

[Schillok]

About deduction...

I had the idea that the user of detection would have to submit a list of names that they want to check for that night. They can put as many names as they like one their list.

Example: I (Okiya) submit the following order: Detect - Kleene, Akonyl, PT, Paix.
If either one of them was the killer during that night, I get a "true" result (but not who it was). If not, I get a "false".
This is obviously weaker than the current ability (either I have low chance of having the murder on the list or my list is so huge that it would take ages to check all.), so Okiya and Yusaku should be able to use them each round, without having to find the killer first.
Also, the BO can finally fake an own list without getting exposed by a real deductor. It would also make two deductors a synergistic combination instead of giving redundant results like they do now (what is the use of getting the same list twice?). Also, the BO doesn't have to fear losing their first killer as quickly as they are in risk of doing now. Ohh, and deduction can finally become investigated like most other night abilities. And so we could also add spy (with the same keyword) on the list of investigation-able actions. 
(If a player on the list was blamed for killing the target, the result would give a "true" result as well, even if the real killer was not on the list.)


Considering Yusaku: Maybe we should give him Pry instead of interrogate. Pry feels like a weaker version of interrogate, so we could have him use pry and deduce each night now. Just like Okiya would be able to detect and deduce during the same night now. Pry would - just as it does now - find police, FBI/CIA and BO.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Getting the same list twice and it's purpose:
If you wouldn't get the same list, but the list would be:
Akonyl, PT, Kleene, Schillok
and the other one get's the list: Kleene, xpon, Paix, Akonyl

Then... guess who could possible be the murderer?


@pry: Like said, giving it to the town would give Gin and Vodka a hard time. And every other BO that tries to act like a civilian.

[PT]

I thought about giving Pry to the town, but if it comes up "not in a group" then that person is basically proven town right there. So it's a little too powerful for the town.

[Yurikochan]

I thought about giving Pry to the town, but if it comes up "not in a group" then that person is basically proven town right there. So it's a little too powerful for the town.

Pry would be way too powerful in the hands of a townie. :x

[Schillok]

Getting the same list twice and it's purpose:
If you wouldn't get the same list, but the list would be:
Akonyl, PT, Kleene, Schillok
and the other one get's the list: Kleene, xpon, Paix, Akonyl

Then... guess who could possible be the murderer?

That is if both lists get a "true" result. Like I said, I wanted to change the ability so that you have to submit the list of names you want to check by yourself when you want to use the ability. So you had to submit the list with "Akonyl, PT, Kleene, Schillok" yourself (thus eliminating a large list of other players). Chances are, such a small list would not contain the real killer. And even if it does, there is still the chance of blaming.

I thought about giving Pry to the town, but if it comes up "not in a group" then that person is basically proven town right there. So it's a little too powerful for the town. 

Right, I didn't consider that. So bad for finding BOs but too good to find townies...

[Yurikochan]

So pinch became auto arrest since it had the ability to stop kills...(it wasn't round 18, since they just lost the disguise) So the next round it gained auto arrest...With Vermouth's killing action, it can't stop her. So maybe Vermouth's killing action should be the next two phases after a successful kill. So it makes Nakamori a bit less useless then what the previous makes him...

Also instead of the pinch being successful, Nakamori should get an automatic trick/frighten if he pinches Vermouth during the two phases.

Also I still think pinch shouldn't be investigatable...

I had some other suggestions, but I can't think of them ATM. ^^

[Akonyl]

I don't see why he should get an automatic trick/frighten in that case, in the case of Vermy being under MoD then and Nakamori pinches her during the day, if he gets "frightened" he's almost more certain that the person he pinched is Vermouth than if he just pinched her at another time and got her put in jail as a possible Kid suspect.

and I don't really remember the auto-arrest being added in as a means to stop kills, I remember it just being added in so he wouldn't have to wait a phase to arrest the person (in which case he may already be dead by another BO or the BO has been allowed to have another action in that spare time), but I don't really have a problem with making Vermy's action take up the two phases afterward instead of the killing phase + 1 after (though I don't really think it's necessary either)

most of the BO's Killing Actions are almost always useful, Vermouth's in most cases won't be because it's so situational, so I don't see why it shouldn't work when it's used correctly.

though I do sorta agree with Pinch being non-investigatable, as is the case with a few other role-defining abilities (like Lawsuit). Or at the very least, give it a keyword that's shared with other roles.


A few other thoughts during this round:
Uehara: While it wasn't an issue this round, I'm a little iffy about what Safeguard could be used for in future rounds. In its current state, if any townie is about to be lynched in a game Uehara is in, they can just shout "I'm " in the thread and Uehara has no reason not to use Safeguard on them, getting them identified, fully protected and proven (because they avoided being lynched), and at this point they can be protected from killing/poisoning by other roles (Healers/protectors/Kazuhas) until two days later when Uehara can stop them from being poisoned again. Basically, for how little risk is involved in the ability, you can save quite a few day victims pretty easily. Also, if Uehara's a lover, this combined with Lovey Dovey effectively makes one person unlynchable and unpoisonable. Splitting the ability into Safeguard(APTX) and Safeguard(Lynching) to make Uehara choose between the two would solve most of this imo.

CEslander: While the way it works now is understandable, I still think it's a bit weird. CE only works on the crimes of past phases (and likewise, it'll take a phase before Framed crimes show up on CE), but CEslander can be used to slander CEs the phase of them happening. While the distinction isn't that large and it probably won't make much of a difference, it might be good for CEslander to be retooled some way in the future so that it works at the "same speed" as CE and Frame (So CEslandering someone N1 would result in them having slandered results on N2 rather than N1)

[aly_angelflight]

CEslander: While the way it works now is understandable, I still think it's a bit weird. CE only works on the crimes of past phases (and likewise, it'll take a phase before Framed crimes show up on CE), but CEslander can be used to slander CEs the phase of them happening. While the distinction isn't that large and it probably won't make much of a difference, it might be good for CEslander to be retooled some way in the future so that it works at the "same speed" as CE and Frame (So CEslandering someone N1 would result in them having slandered results on N2 rather than N1)

Aww, but that would make the hillarious situation of KID-Eri/Kujou CE'ing the CE Slandered person on N1 and thus thinking they are Vermouth disappear.

[Stopwatch]

most of the BO's Killing Actions are almost always useful, Vermouth's in most cases won't be because it's so situational, so I don't see why it shouldn't work when it's used correctly.

^That sums up my feelings on the matter, though I'm probably biased

though I do sorta agree with Pinch being non-investigatable, as is the case with a few other role-defining abilities (like Lawsuit). Or at the very least, give it a keyword that's shared with other roles.

Yeah, that'd be a good idea, perhaps something like if the auto-arrest succeeds it shows up as arrest, but the rest of the time it's non-investigatable...?

A few other thoughts during this round:
Uehara: While it wasn't an issue this round, I'm a little iffy about what Safeguard could be used for in future rounds. In its current state, if any townie is about to be lynched in a game Uehara is in, they can just shout "I'm " in the thread and Uehara has no reason not to use Safeguard on them, getting them identified, fully protected and proven (because they avoided being lynched), and at this point they can be protected from killing/poisoning by other roles (Healers/protectors/Kazuhas) until two days later when Uehara can stop them from being poisoned again. Basically, for how little risk is involved in the ability, you can save quite a few day victims pretty easily. Also, if Uehara's a lover, this combined with Lovey Dovey effectively makes one person unlynchable and unpoisonable. Splitting the ability into Safeguard(APTX) and Safeguard(Lynching) to make Uehara choose between the two would solve most of this imo.

Hmm... yeah, that'd work (when I first read this I thought a penalty might help, but the BOs could take advantage of that much too easily )

CEslander: While the way it works now is understandable, I still think it's a bit weird. CE only works on the crimes of past phases (and likewise, it'll take a phase before Framed crimes show up on CE), but CEslander can be used to slander CEs the phase of them happening. While the distinction isn't that large and it probably won't make much of a difference, it might be good for CEslander to be retooled some way in the future so that it works at the "same speed" as CE and Frame (So CEslandering someone N1 would result in them having slandered results on N2 rather than N1)

However that'd give SOers even less power than previously, if you changed SO to be slightly better to compensate though, it's probably be a good idea .
EDIT:

CEslander: While the way it works now is understandable, I still think it's a bit weird. CE only works on the crimes of past phases (and likewise, it'll take a phase before Framed crimes show up on CE), but CEslander can be used to slander CEs the phase of them happening. While the distinction isn't that large and it probably won't make much of a difference, it might be good for CEslander to be retooled some way in the future so that it works at the "same speed" as CE and Frame (So CEslandering someone N1 would result in them having slandered results on N2 rather than N1)

Aww, but that would make the hillarious situation of KID-Eri/Kujou CE'ing the CE Slandered person on N1 and thus thinking they are Vermouth disappear.

Considering the last three roles I've had I... have mixed feelings on that happening