Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Akonyl]

And only two roles can get arrested.

Eisuke, Asami, Yukiko and Kid for the town. Which ones did you forget? (Without the help of blame, which hasn't been helpful in getting people arrested anyway.)

and if a blamed townie was in prison, and became the center of a townie alliance, I wouldn't care anyway. Would be the BO's own fault there

[Schillok]

@ Arrest: After thinking about it for a while... why don't we allow actions ON arrested players in general? So they can still be lynched, killed, APTXed, interrogated, whatever. But obviously they won't be able to do anything themselves and even lose all their passive abilities (including disguises). I mean: Is there any reason why we didn't allow it in the past?


@ Arresting: Mhh, so the GM wouldn't have to mention arrests in the thread anymore if they failed? Actually, i have no special opinion about that one. Might be worth a try though.


@ Pisco: Guess I didn't read him properly. I thought it would work on all crimes the target performed that night. So even if  Gin were out there slandering 2 targets and killing none of the crimes would return as true. Neither did I read about not being able to erase the same crime twice. I guess in this incarnation it is a bit more moderate and could work. Though, some issues should be cleared first - the influence on detection and betrayal and if it should be able to copy the ability with Calvados. And also if "erase" should be the keyword for both "erase body" and "erase evidence" and if it should be a crime itself.


@ Satou: No matter the duration, the detained target still loses its night actions and can't vote the following day. I think it is too much, especially for a repeatable town ability. Even as a BO ability it would be ridiculous. Imagine Vermouth detaining Gin when he is about to be lynched, then releasing him again and detaining again the next day whoever BO target gets targeted by the town then! Though, with the suggested change on how arrest works it would not work anymore.


@ Jirokichi: Didn't we change that he would contact a random police when one of his gems was stolen? I think we should change it that way even if it wasn't. And yes, he would get in contact with KID in disguise as well that way. Not sure about Toichi who would lose his costume soon (or Yuriko who does so as well).

[PT]

@ Arrest: After thinking about it for a while... why don't we allow actions ON arrested players in general? So they can still be lynched, killed, APTXed, interrogated, whatever. But obviously they won't be able to do anything themselves and even lose all their passive abilities (including disguises). I mean: Is there any reason why we didn't allow it in the past?

I don't see the point in being able to kill/lynch/APTX someone in jail, tbh. They're already out of the game as far as numbers go - why bother wasting the time to kill them?

@ Jirokichi: Didn't we change that he would contact a random police when one of his gems was stolen? I think we should change it that way even if it wasn't. And yes, he would get in contact with KID in disguise as well that way. Not sure about Toichi who would lose his costume soon (or Yuriko who does so as well).

It's already that way, I think. Although the rules state that he'd get in contact with Nakamori, and then a random police officer if Nakamori isn't around. But we should probably just change it to "a random police"

Regarding suspension: it would be just as easy for someone to lie and say they're the suspended police officer when they really aren't, so I don't see how it's a big deal to remove it from the phase change posts.

Detention: How about changing it so that the same person can't be put in detention twice?

[Akonyl]

@ Arrest: After thinking about it for a while... why don't we allow actions ON arrested players in general? So they can still be lynched, killed, APTXed, interrogated, whatever. But obviously they won't be able to do anything themselves and even lose all their passive abilities (including disguises). I mean: Is there any reason why we didn't allow it in the past?

I don't see the point in being able to kill/lynch/APTX someone in jail, tbh. They're already out of the game as far as numbers go - why bother wasting the time to kill them?

why bother killing them?

Last I checked, the reason why was the reason this conversation started in the first place. And if it's such a non-issue, then why not allow it?

@ Jirokichi: Didn't we change that he would contact a random police when one of his gems was stolen? I think we should change it that way even if it wasn't. And yes, he would get in contact with KID in disguise as well that way. Not sure about Toichi who would lose his costume soon (or Yuriko who does so as well).

It's already that way, I think. Although the rules state that he'd get in contact with Nakamori, and then a random police officer if Nakamori isn't around. But we should probably just change it to "a random police"

Regarding suspension: it would be just as easy for someone to lie and say they're the suspended police officer when they really aren't, so I don't see how it's a big deal to remove it from the phase change posts.

Detention: How about changing it so that the same person can't be put in detention twice?

Yeah, it should just be a random officer, imo. That way, Nakamori won't be nerfed anymore for abilities that aren't even his :V

Arresting: After the fact, maybe (but then you run the risk of claiming it when the true person claims it at the same time), but even so you're ignoring the common case of "Watch me, I'll prove I'm a police, next phase a policeman will be suspended", which the BO has no way of manipulating without a vermy-cop.

Detention: Not being able to detain the same person twice is fair, imo.

[Yurikochan]

@Ako: Not everyone trusted me til I started helping the town, and even then Schillok and others didn't trust me. I think jail should stay the same and no actions. Cause what's the point if BO can go and townies can't. To be quite honest.

I gave up my vote and actions, cause I was most likely dead. It's not really fun when the game ends on night 4. Especially due to pacts. I haven't had been as excited in a game as I was for this one. And the BO played smart cause they won, at least townies HAD a chance because of the alliance.

[Akonyl]

@Ako: Not everyone trusted me til I started helping the town, and even then Schillok and others didn't trust me. I think jail should stay the same and no actions. Cause what's the point if BO can go and townies can't. To be quite honest.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "BO can go and townies can't", but trying to equate a BO in prison to a townie in prison is bad imo. The only time it's ever a deciding factor for the BO when someone's in jail is times like Dus's round, where the remaining BO are all inactive and so the person in prison needs to control their actions, otherwise it makes virtually no difference because there's multiple other capable people in the BO to do the orders anyway. When it comes to a townie in jail on the other hand, they can be used to form fairly large alliances where identities can be kept relatively safe, because there's no risk of the person in jail dying. I don't really see the two as being comparable.

I gave up my vote and actions, cause I was most likely dead. It's not really fun when the game ends on night 4. Especially due to pacts. I haven't had been as excited in a game as I was for this one. And the BO played smart cause they won, at least townies HAD a chance because of the alliance.

saying it like this makes this sound as if the only reason the town had a fighting chance was because you managed to make the alliance, when the town would have had a much fairer chance at surviving without it had they not revealed so much information about themselves early on. The only reason the BO almost won on Day 4 was because starting on Day 2, we were able to poison 2 people every single day for the rest of the game. Had 6 people not been APTXed, the game would have went very differently.

and you didn't give up your vote and actions, because as stated you were slated to die anyway. It's not really a sacrifice if it's going to happen either way.

[PT]

why bother killing them?

Last I checked, the reason why was the reason this conversation started in the first place. And if it's such a non-issue, then why not allow it?

Eh, fair enough. Go for it. Might be an interesting change, anyway.

Arresting: After the fact, maybe (but then you run the risk of claiming it when the true person claims it at the same time), but even so you're ignoring the common case of "Watch me, I'll prove I'm a police, next phase a policeman will be suspended", which the BO has no way of manipulating without a vermy-cop.

I ignore it even when it happens in-game. But that's just me.

Honestly though, I still don't understand why it's such an issue to change it now. To me, it's the same as proving yourself through your actions.

[Akonyl]

Honestly though, I still don't understand why it's such an issue to change it now. To me, it's the same as proving yourself through your actions.

yes, but the point is that while you can BS things like interrogation, investigation, obvserving, etc, you can't BS an arrest because it will be immediately apparent that it never happened, which is a problem considering that of the 37 town roles, 8 of them are police, which is a pretty hefty portion of them. Not to mention, many of the investigator roles are policemen, which is unfortunate for Gin because he can basically just claim to be Akai and hope. Especially unfortunate for Korn, who if he wants people to believe he can stake-out, will be found out immediately when they find out he can't arrest.

Sure, there's other actions that require the other person to be PMed the result (stealing, discombobulation), but arresting goes a step further in that not only does the "receipt" get shown in the thread for everyone to see as a fact, but really there isn't much of a reason for it to do so because it affected nobody else other than the police officer.

as for "why it's such an issue to change it now", the same thing can be said about pretty much every rule in the game then. Pisco existed long enough with just Erase, why would we have to give him bribe? Lovers existed long enough by themselves, why'd we have to give em lovey-dovey?

[Yurikochan]

@Ako: Not everyone trusted me til I started helping the town, and even then Schillok and others didn't trust me. I think jail should stay the same and no actions. Cause what's the point if BO can go and townies can't. To be quite honest.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "BO can go and townies can't", but trying to equate a BO in prison to a townie in prison is bad imo. The only time it's ever a deciding factor for the BO when someone's in jail is times like Dus's round, where the remaining BO are all inactive and so the person in prison needs to control their actions, otherwise it makes virtually no difference because there's multiple other capable people in the BO to do the orders anyway. When it comes to a townie in jail on the other hand, they can be used to form fairly large alliances where identities can be kept relatively safe, because there's no risk of the person in jail dying. I don't really see the two as being comparable.

I gave up my vote and actions, cause I was most likely dead. It's not really fun when the game ends on night 4. Especially due to pacts. I haven't had been as excited in a game as I was for this one. And the BO played smart cause they won, at least townies HAD a chance because of the alliance.

saying it like this makes this sound as if the only reason the town had a fighting chance was because you managed to make the alliance, when the town would have had a much fairer chance at surviving without it had they not revealed so much information about themselves early on. The only reason the BO almost won on Day 4 was because starting on Day 2, we were able to poison 2 people every single day for the rest of the game. Had 6 people not been APTXed, the game would have went very differently.

and you didn't give up your vote and actions, because as stated you were slated to die anyway. It's not really a sacrifice if it's going to happen either way.

I was the one that figured out the bomber, and Breva's victim. And that Xcomm was Akemi. Which we would have undetained just to re-arrest, and you can ask Kirby but I did at first freak out and say that you could be Tequila. Since I read Schillok's PM wrong. Haylie as Gin was my idea to arrest (Since Parkur caught the slandering of Miiko, and DT interrogated her. (again as I told Kleene, my two suspects for Gin were her and Hayley) So yeah, I'd like to have my credit for asking Parkur to arrest her.

Parkur and I alliances before I was in jail. As did DT and I as you know. Plus I had all from there alliances. Which ended up dying.

And at least BO has control of inactive members. (I think that started round 15, cause it sure as heck wasn't round 14.) But the inactive townies we can't do anything about and it can make and break a game for both the sides.

@Dus: If we arrested him that phase you guys would have killed me, also revealing he was Vermy for his disguise. We thought we'd go for a lynch, and there was no problem arresting him the next night. Though if I had been in contact with Kirby we could have done both arrests. By the way the BO revealed themselves day 4. the day we arrested Hayley. Cause a townie would have followed my lynching.

[Akonyl]

I was the one that figured out the bomber, and Breva's victim. And that Xcomm was Akemi. Which we would have undetained just to re-arrest, and you can ask Kirby but I did at first freak out and say that you could be Tequila. Since I read Schillok's PM wrong. Haylie as Gin was my idea to arrest (Since Parkur caught the slandering of Miiko, and DT interrogated her. (again as I told Kleene, my two suspects for Gin were her and Hayley) So yeah, I'd like to have my credit for asking Parkur to arrest her.

Parkur and I alliances before I was in jail. As did DT and I as you know. Plus I had all from there alliances. Which ended up dying.

I'm... not quite sure what you're trying to get at here :V I never said that you didn't find things out, because if I thought you didn't do anything this round, I wouldn't be saying all this stuff about how this is an unfair advantage just like I've been saying it could be for multiple rounds now

And yes, you were allied with DT/Parkur beforehand, but that doesn't change the fact that you managed to rally the rest of the town afterward while being safe in prison.

And also yeah, I was sorta surprised that xcom wasn't released on Day 5 so that he could be arrested on Night 6 (as you all had reason to believe you'd have caseclosed lynched that day and not have to arrest her instead).

And at least BO has control of inactive members. (I think that started round 15, cause it sure as heck wasn't round 14.) But the inactive townies we can't do anything about and it can make and break a game for both the sides.

I'm not sure if the BO does actually, just members who say that person X can take their actions and then they go off somewhere.

And while inactive people suck, not gonna lie, a game shouldn't be balanced around thinking that there will be any.

[CTU]

Actions on an arrested person sounds like a good idea to me I'd like to see a jailhouse poisoning if it came down to that

Also I'd like to see the ORG have a role which can break somebody out of jail, but that might break the game or something

[Yurikochan]

If I was in jail or not  the town should have figured out the BO when you all voted together, to go for the tie. ^^

But I think jail is fine, and it was an approach no one tried before. (and I really wasn't ready to die which was my fault one way or another, so I totally played suicidal. And told everyone I was KID. Cause I was just waiting to die. Like I said even in jail not everyone trusted me. And I didn't blame them. And Parkur didn't come out and tell people we were allianced together. In fact I was suspected when I was let out of jail. And again I totally freaked out.

Yeah, inactive people suck. But I'm pretty sure BO can control members a lot better than before now. XD!

[PT]

Also I'd like to see the ORG have a role which can break somebody out of jail, but that might break the game or something

Well, they had Vermouth-Eri this round and that was pretty dangerous. (And I'm still not entirely sure why they didn't bust Ako out instead of Yuriko... since they suspected she'd be re-arrested anyway.)

[Yurikochan]

Also I'd like to see the ORG have a role which can break somebody out of jail, but that might break the game or something

Well, they had Vermouth-Eri this round and that was pretty dangerous. (And I'm still not entirely sure why they didn't bust Ako out instead of Yuriko... since they suspected she'd be re-arrested anyway.)

Thank you for saying it. <3

[Schillok]

Also I'd like to see the ORG have a role which can break somebody out of jail, but that might break the game or something

Well, they had Vermouth-Eri this round and that was pretty dangerous. (And I'm still not entirely sure why they didn't bust Ako out instead of Yuriko... since they suspected she'd be re-arrested anyway.)

Because they knew Akonyl was just detained since spy is no crime anymore, hence Akonyl did not commit a crime yet. Since they obviously also knew he was not blamed for anything, they knew they would get Akonyl sooner or later. Which turned out to be very late.
Again, I think Satô needs some major changing. Before she makes for some very bad experiences. While an ability that fakes an arrest, stops its target from doing anything, stops his/her voting and keeps him/her out of the game is interesting, it is not something a character without any disadvantages and two other very relevant abilities should have. And I don't mean only forbidding her to detain the same player twice. That would only mean Satô detains a different player each night, not really solving the problem that the ability is a super-powered discombobulate. Though, if we accept the changes in killing people in prison it would at least remove the "protection" part of her ability.

I am asking again: Did we have some specific reason why we did forbid actions on players that were arrested? Some kind of balancing that came up in the earlier rounds that we forgot about? If not, we could just allow it. Making jail a less safe place - but possibly allow the town to find out if they might not have just arrested one of their own by chance... A teenager in jail with dead Haibara and Anokata already confirmed? Must be a townie (Vermouth would lose her disguise in jail.)!
About re-arresting: I think I suggested it already, but you should not be able to get arrested for the same crime a second time. So if you slandered Kleene night 1 and got arrested for it, once you get out they can't arrest you for it again. Though, they could arrest you for slandering her night 2 again, or any otehr crime she committed at some point.

@Ako: Not everyone trusted me til I started helping the town, and even then Schillok and others didn't trust me. I think jail should stay the same and no actions. Cause what's the point if BO can go and townies can't. To be quite honest.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "BO can go and townies can't", but trying to equate a BO in prison to a townie in prison is bad imo. The only time it's ever a deciding factor for the BO when someone's in jail is times like Dus's round, where the remaining BO are all inactive and so the person in prison needs to control their actions, otherwise it makes virtually no difference because there's multiple other capable people in the BO to do the orders anyway. When it comes to a townie in jail on the other hand, they can be used to form fairly large alliances where identities can be kept relatively safe, because there's no risk of the person in jail dying. I don't really see the two as being comparable.

I guess what Yurikochan meant was: What is the point of jail if only BO could be arrested?
However: I think being in jail should be an inconvenience for the arrested player, so I think making jail not safe anymore would help to make sure an arrested townie does not become the player the BO wants to see dead (but are unable to kill) anymore. If we really want a safe haven, it would be abroad for a traveler. So it is not like that strategy is disappearing completely.
Beside, it would also help with criminals: If a/the target of Natsuki, the Bomber or Okuda becomes arrested, they don't have to get a new target anymore: They can still kill the arrested player. This solves one of the problems they could encounter.   

I gave up my vote and actions, cause I was most likely dead. It's not really fun when the game ends on night 4. Especially due to pacts. I haven't had been as excited in a game as I was for this one. And the BO played smart cause they won, at least townies HAD a chance because of the alliance.

saying it like this makes this sound as if the only reason the town had a fighting chance was because you managed to make the alliance, when the town would have had a much fairer chance at surviving without it had they not revealed so much information about themselves early on. The only reason the BO almost won on Day 4 was because starting on Day 2, we were able to poison 2 people every single day for the rest of the game. Had 6 people not been APTXed, the game would have went very differently.

and you didn't give up your vote and actions, because as stated you were slated to die anyway. It's not really a sacrifice if it's going to happen either way.

Well, I must admit that the game is most fun when you are a townie, forming an alliance and figure out the BO by putting things together.
Though, what happened this round to a large extend somehow was the following:
People were skipping the most important step in forming the alliance: Figuring out who to trust and who not. It is okay to make the wrong decision - trusting a BO because he tricked you - it is part of the game. But the game is not supposed to be decided by pre-game and night-1 - alliances. Because in the end this would mean the game would be determined right the moment the roles are distributed, it would all depend on luck if your dream alliance is consisting only of townies who can tell each other everything safely, or if you have a BO among you that can get the whole group killed any time the BO wants. Being suicidal shouldn't be rewarded.
It is okay if it works from time to time, but if half of the players act that way (or some players every game) it should be punishing to the town. The BO is supposed to be the ones who are taking the risks. The town is supposed to act calmly and solve the mystery by combination, luck, communication and a bit of recklessness and bluffing from time to time...


Also, I would probably not have trusted you that fast if things wouldn't have gone worse that quickly...
Yeah, the arrestings were pretty good, but all the APTX victims were not worth it. Sure, one townie for a BO is great. Two for one early in the game as well. But I think the town could easily have reached the same number of remaining BO (3) if they had played more careful (though a bit slower)... with more townies remaining.