Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Dus]

I like the changes proposed to Pisco, but could he erase the evidence for killing as well? Toichi also sounds intriguing.
Satou: I had intended for her to keep people locked up for three days, as it was used, but I think 3 phases would also be fine. Which reminds me: Why was Akonyl put into detention anyway?
Criminals: Maybe we should slightly change Natsuki, so that the identity of her victims is revealed (but not the will, and the killing still can't be stopped). This makes it harder to find out who the criminal is and makes cooperation between them and the BO less likely.
breva: She found us by exploiting a glitch in the system, allowing to root out BOs with the forum stats. Not that it really changed anything, I would have checked her for crimes that night anyway.

Arrests: I'm not sure how this would play out, but why not introduce a random factor, that allows inmates to break out from prison, let's say 10% each phase?

[xpon]

sorry for double post.. i am on my phone....

actually, if we put a rule that if the BO won, the criminal will lose.

because if BO win, they will kill all people who is not their member.

that way, the criminal is like kaito kid... who fear police... but is bo enemies....

that way we will have 1 bo kill at night and 1 random kill......

the criminal objective should be changed though.....

because 2 coordinated night kill is way over power.

[Dus]

actually, if we put a rule that if the BO won, the criminal will lose.

The BO can't win as long as there are cops left in the game though. Can Okuda's victim be BO as well?

[Kleene Onigiri]

@Criminal: I don't think you need to prevent the criminal from finding the BO. Because the criminal could also kill of BOs (which is worse for the BO, since they will have a limited number anyway because the criminal is in the game).
Also, one criminal could aim to kill a BO too (like he has to kill Gin).
And natsuki is kinda on the side of the town... how do you wanna prevent a criminal+town alliance?

Balancing is hard. I don't know. But if the criminal didn't find the BO, then the BO could have easily lost, since the criminal could kill off half of the BO easily too :V


@arresting:
Having a townie getting arrested on purpose, so he can avoid getting APTXed and can be the center of the town. It would be like in the rounds, where there was no APTX, and all townies claim a role and the rest, that doesn't claim a role, is therefore BO. We could just remove APTX altogether then
It's too strong if that happens. And KID doesn't want to get arrested, so getting arrested on purpose is also kinda strange role wise. And "loosing" 1 townie isn't so bad because you can coordinate the town then and make a big alliance, that the BO can't stop anymore.
Now the question is, "will this happen so easily? Why would I trust someone that is arrested?". Well, it happened. And once that small group, in which one is arrested, lynches a BO, then 80% of the town that isn't in the alliance yet will trust that arrested player.
The chance is slim that this happens. But so is the chance, that Vermouth disguises as Jirokichi. But for the case that vermouth disguises as Jirokichi, it was solved by not letting her disguise at all. I think Vermouth also can't disguise as Nakamori.... Because otherwise, IF that case happens, then the BO side would have a great advantage.
But IF a trusted townie get's arrested, then the town side will also have a great advantage. But the BO can't do aynthing about it. I think that's not good.
A possible solution is, that the arrested players can't communicate. But that's kinda meh :V
Or, the BO can APTX the one in jail. Or they can make a night kill on the jailed person (which will have a draw back on the BO too, since they have to kill a player that is "out" anyway).
The main problem is, that the jailed one can freely talk in the thread.

Also, another thing. I think, once someone was released from jail, all his crimes should be rested to 0. (All crimes, also blamed ones). Otherwise, the town could just rearrest that person again.
Or Vermouth disguised as a police officer would also rearrest a townie. Which makes the ability kinda useless then.
Problem are disguises.
Either the person looses his disguise and won't be disguised anymore at all. Or he/she get's a new disguise randomly.
Or he get's out and will have a 2 phase delay on his old disguise (so if released on day 2, he'll start beingdisguised again on night 4 (night 3 and day 3, he/she won't be disguised)

@detention: yeah, should be 3 phases. Tho, here is also the problem of forming a town-center. And I think you shouldn't be able to use detention on the same player over and over. But instead, detention an Akonyl, then Kleene, and then you can use it on Akonyl again.

@Pisco: I like that idea If Toichi get's in the game, I'm in favor of that
If Toichi doesn't get into the game, then maybe changing it so, that Pisco can "erase wills permanently" once a game or for the current night/day. So, even if that person isn't erased, there won't be a will shown. (which can be powerful)

@Toichi: A role to get the BO waste their APTX :x But he could get lynched easily because he doesn't get results (which makes him look like a BO)
Usually, you don't have so many APTX victims :V And there is already KID and Yukiko and Kazuha, that can make a APTX fail.
That's why I think, if toichi get's in, pisco can be changed too :V

@lynching:
If a traveler outside of Japan get's lynched, the votes should be shown. Because a protector could have saved the victim too. Or that person was a lover. So it's not definite why the player survived :V
And travelers can always travel away, so they can kinda protect themselves anyway.

@suspension:
Personally, I think there are too many police officers that use the suspension being shown on the thread in order to prove themselves. It's a easy method to prove themselves. And thus the BO can't pretend to be a police officer, which limits the BO for possible roles they can pretend as (especially for Gin with investigate).
I'd suggest that a suspended police officer won't be shown anymore. Instead he just get's a PM.
If Yusaku makes a false arrest order, then either it will be shown that all police officers are suspended or just all police will get PMed.

@Bomber: Maybe the bomber should know how many police officers are in the game? Not sure.

@spy/deduction: I think you should be able to investigate deduction/spy

Not sure if I wanted to say anything else :V

[Dus]

I honestly don't see why there needs to be a rule to prevent townies from getting arrested on purpose. It's still a loss to the town, unless you can count on being released again. And keep one thing in mind: Had I been house-searched, then two thefts would have turned up and I could have claimed Kid just as much as Yuriko.

[Schillok]

so if i am criminal... i just need to say in the thread this: "contact me please... i am criminal"

If you want the town to lynch/arrest you, sure.

actually, if we put a rule that if the BO won, the criminal will lose.

The BO can't win as long as there are cops left in the game though. Can Okuda's victim be BO as well?

Yes, his victim could be a BO as well.  Though, I guess a GM will manipulate the outcome to change it into a townie all the time.

actually, if we put a rule that if the BO won, the criminal will lose.

because if BO win, they will kill all people who is not their member.

that way, the criminal is like kaito kid... who fear police... but is bo enemies....

that way we will have 1 bo kill at night and 1 random kill......

the criminal objective should be changed though.....

because 2 coordinated night kill is way over power.

Well, the condition for the criminal is already that he must win the game before the game ends (meaning town, BO or lovers won). So for Okuda there is little reason to work together with any side, or avoid working with any side. He could ally with the town and kill BOs if he wanted to gain their trust and find his real target. Or pretend working with the BO to find out who to kill.

The main problem is the Bomber. Because he is very interested in working together with the police as long as his target are police, and the BO will be interested to help him. Because as said before, the BO can't win as long as there is a single police remaining. It might be a bit more tension if the group the bomber kills is allowed to change (to FBI/CIA, detectives, teenagers, disguisers, observers/stake-outers BO, whatever). Still, the 2 coordinated kills has to be balanced by the starting number of BO in most cases. Unless we allow the Bomber to get groups that are overlapping between town and BO (teenagers, disguisers, observers/stake-outers, etc.). Finally, that is quite specific and up to the GM.

I like the changes proposed to Pisco, but could he erase the evidence for killing as well? Toichi also sounds intriguing.
Satou: I had intended for her to keep people locked up for three days, as it was used, but I think 3 phases would also be fine. Which reminds me: Why was Akonyl put into detention anyway?

Again, I think we should keep crimes crimes. They are hard enough to be found out already (except for Eri, but I would much rather change her than Pisco), they can be blamed and are the major way the town is able to find and punish the BO.

About Sato: There is no reason necessary to put anyone in detention. Which is why the ability seems so... overpowered. Again, it might work if it was her only power, but the way it is she is a police with super-discomb-frighten-heal.

Criminals: Maybe we should slightly change Natsuki, so that the identity of her victims is revealed (but not the will, and the killing still can't be stopped). This makes it harder to find out who the criminal is and makes cooperation between them and the BO less likely.

Yeah, I agree on that idea. Maybe even leave the will. Just make her killings unstoppable so she does not start attacking healed townies each night when she notices her list only contains townies and cooperates with a healer. But otherwise her killings shouldn't be any different from the other criminals. Which makes it also riskier for the BO to contact the criminal since Natsuki is very well interested to get each BO exposed and make the town win once she is finished killing 4 people from her list.

breva: She found us by exploiting a glitch in the system, allowing to root out BOs with the forum stats. Not that it really changed anything, I would have checked her for crimes that night anyway.

Well, that is still unfortunate. I mean, using a glitch to find BO. Imagine a townie did that and also exploited it. Not sure how much Breva could be blamed though. Because... well, it would be yet another night without coordination between the criminal and the BO. And imagine her killing you that night by chance which would have turned around everything.

Arrests: I'm not sure how this would play out, but why not introduce a random factor, that allows inmates to break out from prison, let's say 10% each phase?

We should keep the randomness as little as possible. During the role distribution it is perfectly fine. Also for some abilities like spy, detect and betrayal. But not for something major like getting out of jail which would turn around whole games if suddenly a BO (or multiple BO) returns to game by chance and makes the BO win because of a 10% event.

[Kleene Onigiri]

I honestly don't see why there needs to be a rule to prevent townies from getting arrested on purpose. It's still a loss to the town, unless you can count on being released again. And keep one thing in mind: Had I been house-searched, then two thefts would have turned up and I could have claimed Kid just as much as Yuriko.

Then I don't see why Vermouth can't be disguised as Jirokichi or Nakamori or arrest someone for blamed actions

[Dus]

I honestly don't see why there needs to be a rule to prevent townies from getting arrested on purpose. It's still a loss to the town, unless you can count on being released again. And keep one thing in mind: Had I been house-searched, then two thefts would have turned up and I could have claimed Kid just as much as Yuriko.

Then I don't see why Vermouth can't be disguised as Jirokichi or Nakamori or arrest someone for blamed actions

I don't see the connection at all.

[Kleene Onigiri]

breva: She found us by exploiting a glitch in the system, allowing to root out BOs with the forum stats. Not that it really changed anything, I would have checked her for crimes that night anyway.

Well, that is still unfortunate. I mean, using a glitch to find BO. Imagine a townie did that and also exploited it. Not sure how much Breva could be blamed though. Because... well, it would be yet another night without coordination between the criminal and the BO. And imagine her killing you that night by chance which would have turned around everything.

We told pofa about it. And I dunno if it was on purpose, since it was because of the online viewing stat, where you could see caseclosed viewing the BO thread
That's why there will be a rule/change that every mafia player has to be in offline status, or the online viewing will be disabled.

And like Dus said, he was about to cross-examine breva. And we knew breva can observe. So we would have found her anyway (or she could ahve found Dus with the deduction list) SO it didn't change much. It would have been bad for the BO if she would have been town.

[Kleene Onigiri]

I honestly don't see why there needs to be a rule to prevent townies from getting arrested on purpose. It's still a loss to the town, unless you can count on being released again. And keep one thing in mind: Had I been house-searched, then two thefts would have turned up and I could have claimed Kid just as much as Yuriko.

Then I don't see why Vermouth can't be disguised as Jirokichi or Nakamori or arrest someone for blamed actions

I don't see the connection at all.

[Akonyl]

btw.. 7 BO + 1 Criminal who work with the BO is far more dangerous then 13 BO !!!!!!!!!!!

considering the massive amounts of poisons we dropped this round and the fact that we barely made it out alive, yeah I doubt that.

Which is why I suggest changing Eri anyway. Cross-examine is already a good ability that could be her only action and still make her good. Let us at least remove VoR from her.
I guess poisoning in prison is the easiest thing to solve a townie getting arrested to become unkillable. Though... a traveler stying abroad is exactly the same. I don't think it is necessary to remove that tactical possibility from the town. And seriously: Most of the time, how many would trust an arrested player they know nothing about? I think the punishment of losing a townie who won't b able to influence the game in any way except for coordinating townies (losing his/her actions and vote) in the process should be fair enough.
Also, this strategy was not enough for the town to win last game. So it is nothing that requires immediate attention.

it's true that a traveler could possibly do the same thing, but they also have a harder time proving they're who they say they are because their actions are very easily black-suitcaseable, whereas Kid and Discombobulators' crimes both aren't able to be fully black-suitcased.

And if it's not too bad for the town to have such a tactical advantage, then why not change lovey-dovey back? Last I checked you were one of the people who was more vocal about that. (Note: I'm not actually advocating changing lovey-dovey back, but I'm just saying that it's the same argument for this as it was lovey-dovey).

As for it not being enough for the town to win last game, I fail to see how that means anything. Just because everyone got poisoned doesn't mean that this could have been carried out a bit better and been much more devastating. The only reason the BO won was we were able to poison 2 people a phase for phase after phase after phase, which is something that shouldn't happen anyway. The presence of an imbalancing factor in the midst of a badly played game doesn't make the imbalancing factor any less of a problem.

Akonyl brought up several things I wanted to mention. The detention thing should have been obvious, but I had already told Kirby three days in the PM before I realized what that meant.  So yeah, let's change the wording there.

I said it in the game thread already: I think we should change detention completely. People did not like the idea of giving Akai and ability that discombobulates and protects at the same time (as his only ability beside vindicate). Here we have an ability that discombobulates and heals AND frightens AND protects from APTX for 3 phases. On Satô, who can already investigate 3 and arrest normally as well.
I don't think it makes for a good play. If Akonyl were a townie he would be pretty much out of the complete last game, without any chance. Without even knowing WHY he was arrested. (As Bourbon at least he knew what happened.) It helped hiding that many townies (myself included) played badly last game but a single ability should not be able to do that.

If we keep detention the way it is now... I don't think it would be a good idea. You can be sure that if I become Satô, I would discomb-frighten-heal at any possible chance, no matter of the target. And I would use my other abilities to play "normally" as well.

as for your last part: The only reason I was out of the game so long was the bad wording. 3 phases normally isn't that bad.

As for the rest of it, Kleene suggested something about a time-out between being able to use Detention, at least on the same person, so maybe restrictions could be placed on how many times / how often she could use it.

And to avoid quoting everything else:

Schillok:
Pisco: I realize that Bribe saves the problem of abroad travelers or people in jail, but if bribe's intended to be the only solution to such a large problem, it seems pretty unfair to just attach it to one role and then be like "oh sorry, you just happened to be a BO group that can't do anything about this."

And if I remember correctly, you previously touted how immensely powerful you thought policemen were due to their ability to arrest, all this does is makes arresting less effective and makes the BO able to blend in a bit better. After all, isn't "less BO who can blend in better" the game design we were aiming for as we made the BO more powerful? Your mention about deducings is a fair one, though in the way it's worded, those would still point out the culprit, only investigations/stakeouts are false. It's a reverse black suitcase, and just as BSing "X kills Victim" doesn't put you in the deduction list or Kir's list, this won't take you out. However, all of your complaints on disguises, face pinchings and house arrests for disguises gloss over the fact that it specifically says you can't erase evidence of disguises. House search will work the same as always, unless the person's only crime was the one that was erased.


Toichi: If his White Suitcase could extend to the day, then just as the BS doesn't, a fake accompany wouldn't do anything to the target or give them a message. However, if Grand Disguise was also stretched to the day as well, then he could accompany someone for real once.
1) If he Grand Disguises on a Night where one of those passives would give him information, yeah he would (doesn't a Kid disguised as James get it?)
2) Not sure about this. How do the rules say that Kid should treat this situation? Though, maybe he shouldn't, as it'd be an effect that persists past the Grand Disguise phase, which isn't really desired.
3) Maybe there should be a special provision for face-pinching getting him caught, so yeah why not. The "Disguise investigations will fail" part is so that the BO can't just check him for disguises before poisoning him, which would render his point moot.


Dus:
Pisco could erase the evidence for killing, but only one killing, just as he can only erase the evidence for one slander, one discombob, etc. Also remember that Pisco can never erase his own killings because he's always erasing the body then. Unless maybe we make it possible for him to decide not to erase the body

Satou: You had intended? Iirc I was the one who suggested the entire ability and it was intended to be 3 phases.


Kleene:
Toichi: This role is in no way intended as a "whoa man too many people got APTXed this round" role, I actually had the idea for him before the round started, but didn't want to say it just as a round was starting.

travelers: Ah, yeah that's true I'd forgotten about protectors. So maybe the votes should be shown after all :V

[xpon]

@akonyl.
are you sure your answer are not biased.....

and you made it out barely because the parkur yuriko pact is so wonderful..

if they dont do that.. this round will end before day 4

[Yurikochan]

I actually think Kleene's answer for getting arrested is biased for BO's side. It wasn't a great idea. But I would die either way. As much as I love Hayley, she gave herself away as BO almost as much as I gave myself away as KID.

I don't want to talk about the reason I gave myself away to Hayley, but I got arrested due to waiting to be APTXed. which would happen sooner or later. Parkur and I were awesome. And only two roles can get arrested. besides with detention now. So that wouldn't help cause they just APTX you after you get out of detention. It wasn't guaranteed my allies knew other cops. Since Parkur was the cop that was suspended. So it was fate it all worked out.

[PT]

And only two roles can get arrested.

Eisuke, Asami, Yukiko and Kid for the town. Which ones did you forget? (Without the help of blame, which hasn't been helpful in getting people arrested anyway.)

[Yurikochan]

And only two roles can get arrested.

Eisuke, Asami, Yukiko and Kid for the town. Which ones did you forget? (Without the help of blame, which hasn't been helpful in getting people arrested anyway.)

Eisuke and Yukiko.