Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[PT]

and if Vermouth and Irish are killed later, he can at least be trusted, even if there's no way to break him out of jail.

Abs. will point out "BUT HE COULD STILL BE IRISH!!!!!!!!!1111one"

Better?

and that's true about kid, but there's the possibility that the police isn't saying why they arrested criminal X to stay hidden to the criminal possibly *cough*, thus letting akemi or someone claim they were pinched instead, so kid may not be 100% trustable.

Then Nakamori, at least, would know and could be in contact with Kid and pass information to other trusted sources.

[xpon]

No, because heal/protect counts as the same action when investigating unless I am remembering wrong/the mechanics changed on me while I was distracted

And there's a pretty big pool of healers and protectors

healing is healing (healeing + first aid)

but love dovey and protect is same..

so only 2 possible right? not 4!

[Akonyl]

I left out house-search because it has such a strong penalty against the player for being used indiscriminately, whereas face pinch and detention don't.

the difference is that house search penalizes the user temporarily, but face-pinch can penalize the town almost permanently. Just because an ability isn't a hindrance to the player themselves doesn't mean it doesn't carry a strong penalty (like akai's vengeance often ends with).

Detention doesn't have much of a penalty, right, but it's also not permanent and isn't indicative of BOness at all. So, if someone gets detained and then breaks free, the town has no way of knowing they're actually BO or a criminal or what, other than that Satou thought they looked funny.

[Schillok]

No, because heal/protect counts as the same action when investigating unless I am remembering wrong/the mechanics changed on me while I was distracted

And there's a pretty big pool of healers and protectors

healing is healing (healeing + first aid)

but love dovey and protect is same..

so only 2 possible right? not 4!

Well, but somehow the BO has to learn that you can protect or heal in the first place. So unless you say out loud that you have that ability you are safe from being APTXed. (Or at least as safe as any other role.)
Your troubles start when you tell others to make yourself more creditable - that's the trade-off that each player has to consider.

I left out house-search because it has such a strong penalty against the player for being used indiscriminately, whereas face pinch and detention don't.

the difference is that house search penalizes the user temporarily, but face-pinch can penalize the town almost permanently. Just because an ability isn't a hindrance to the player themselves doesn't mean it doesn't carry a strong penalty (like akai's vengeance often ends with).

I don't get what you mean by that. Using house-search against Yukiko or KID has exactly the same effect (the same "penalty") as face-pinching them. In addition to that there is also the penalty for the user if he uses it against an innocent. However face-pinching a non-disguised player will give Nakamori valuable information without a disadvantage for him or his target. (Sure, there is the "You got pinched" message from the GM for the victim but Nakamori could just as well use that to his advantage.)

[Akonyl]

I left out house-search because it has such a strong penalty against the player for being used indiscriminately, whereas face pinch and detention don't.

the difference is that house search penalizes the user temporarily, but face-pinch can penalize the town almost permanently. Just because an ability isn't a hindrance to the player themselves doesn't mean it doesn't carry a strong penalty (like akai's vengeance often ends with).

I don't get what you mean by that. Using house-search against Yukiko or KID has exactly the same effect (the same "penalty") as face-pinching them. In addition to that there is also the penalty for the user if he uses it against an innocent. However face-pinching a non-disguised player will give Nakamori valuable information without a disadvantage for him or his target. (Sure, there is the "You got pinched" message from the GM for the victim but Nakamori could just as well use that to his advantage.)

what I was saying was that pofa said that face-pinching didn't carry a penalty for its misuse, but I'm saying that it still does carry a penalty, the only difference is that it's to other townies rather than himself, which is still detrimental to the townies winning the game.

Megure's search will point out Kid (and usually the BO as well) though through their other crimes, so it's much easier to actually prove a Kid that was house searched on.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Sorry it pop up with something else now. But afaik, Kir and James should have

-Investigate 1 and Special Investigate 1
and not just
- Special investigate 1

So they have 2 investigates that they can do in the same phase. Tho the thing they investigate is one in the past and one in the current phase.

@Police:

How about this?

Police can do all actions in the same night: Investigate, Arrest and House Search (if available)

Megure, Police Inspector
Night action: Investigate 3
Night/Day action: Arrest
Night action: House search

(so yeah, can do all 3 in the same phase if he wants to)

Shiratori, Police Inspector
Night action: Investigate 3
Night/Day action: Arrest
Night action: House search


Satou, Assistant Police Inspector
Night action: Investigate 3
Night/Day action: Arrest
Night/Day action: Detention


Takagi, Police Sergeant
Night action: Stake-out
Night/Day action: Arrest


Chiba, Police Officer
Night action: Stake-out
Night/Day action: Arrest


Nakamori, Police Inspector
Night action: Investigate 3
Night/Day action: Arrest
Night/Day action: Pinch Face


Yumi, Amor
Night action: Investigate 3
Night/Day action: Arrest
Prep. action: Amor (leave it like it is atm)


Officer Tome, Crime Scene Investigator
Night Action: Special Investigate 1
Night/Day Action: Arrest


@investigating heal/protect:

Keywords:
Kill: Kill / Attack / Murder
Investigate : Investigation / Special Investigation
Observe : Observation / Stake-Out
Protect : Protection / Lovey-Dovey / Bone Breaking
Heal : Healing / First Aid
Discombobulate : Discombobulate
Steal : Stealing
Deduction: Spy/Deduction
Interrogate: Interrogate/Cross-examination
Poison: Poisoning
Pinch Face: Face-pinching
Give Gem: Give Gem

Actually, Observe and stake out can't be figured out from investigating either.
Heal and First aid can't be seperated (as long as you don't tell the person)
Protect, lovey-dovey and bone-break can't (thus, Akai can try to help the protectors with saying he can "protect")
Spy/deduction: Uhm... just noticed. Can you investigate that anyway? Since you don't have a target. But then you'd need to investigate "Kleene uses deduction"

[Akonyl]

Actually, Observe and stake out can't be figured out from investigating either.

this seems pretty "eh" to me, as part of the reason korn/chianti were given those actions was so they could blend in with the town, and if they can't be investigated, this is ruined. Also makes it a bit harder for takagi/chiba/jodie/camel to prove themselves.

Spy/Deduction, atm I don't think they can be investigated, but disguising doesn't have a target either (though it does have a role you need to guess). For Spying at least, I think you should be able to investigate it, as it's a crime, and otherwise you're really only gonna have megure arresting for it anyway when he house searches bourbon.

I'm fine with those police changes though

[Schillok]

Kir and James already have Investigate 1 OR Special Investigate. Having both seems too much to me, especially since they have other abilities as well.
I am really worried about the "power creep" that is happening for the town roles.

Yeah, each role should be fun to play and be useful. But not every role needs to be "powerful".
There is nothing wrong with Shinichi or Heiji being stronger than other townies. The BO has to play against superior numbers of townies - even seemingly small improvements to townies makes it so much harder for them when too many from the town received them.

If it was me I would return the police to their former state: Only Megure can house-search (but can't arrest as long as he has house-search) while the other police only have arrest and investigation or stake-out. And newcomer Nakamori with 2 investigations and face-pinching.
Police are so strong at the moment anyway - the BO can not win as long as there is one of them alive and they can turn around games with a single correct arrest that the BO thought they had won already. So if anyone really wants to change them: Maybe we should rework the OTHER townies first?


Because if we keep on adding new powers to townies then nobody can stop me when I suggest giving the Detective Boys some new ability. Mhh, maybe invincibility for them (Can't be killed because they are sleeping)? Considering they only have their shared identification ability it seems fair, right?
[Answer: No.]


Observe and Stake-Out can be investigated normaly. Though, it is not possible to differentiate which ability they used (if it was observe or stake out).
And no, Spy and Deduction can't be investigated, nor special investigated. And yeah... it means that a Spying BO can only be arrested by house-search. Which I am fine with - Bourbon is probably smart enough to hide the prove of his crimes well enough that a simple arrest won't be enough to prove what he was doing.

[Akonyl]

ah, I hadn't noticed that. Yeah, James/Kir should have "investigate or special investigate", not both, as the change was made when special investigate was made to solely past actions.

And while I do agree with you that power creep is bad, I would not agree that roles should be made stronger than others by design. People didn't think drawing the vanilla townie role was fun in round 1, and they'd dislike it to be a normal policeman rather than megure as well if he was just a "super policeman" like he used to be. Aside from that, a game that goes something like

Gin, Vodka, Megure, Shinichi, Araide
would be a better town list in all ways than
Gin, Vodka, Old Takagi, Shinichi, Araide
and that shouldn't ever be the case imo. Yes, Megure may be better than current Takagi, but takagi has an ability that makes him inherently different and useful in different ways than just being sub-megure. If you recall into the far past, my first suggestions to the police were always to weaken Megure. It was only after I realized that nobody wanted to make him weaker (other than making his house arrest weaker, but still holding him above satou) that I suggested buffing Satou with the detention ability.

I just say: If you really think that nakamori's 3 investigates are too much, then all the police who can investigate should have two. But I still don't think that's the case.

investigating Spying or not isn't that big a deal to me, and it may be too easy to nab bourbon on Night 1 because of it, unless perhaps you have to say "bourbon spied on X", where X is one of the people who ended up in bourbon's list or something.

[Schillok]

And while I do agree with you that power creep is bad, I would not agree that roles should be made stronger than others by design. People didn't think drawing the vanilla townie role was fun in round 1, and they'd dislike it to be a normal policeman rather than megure as well if he was just a "super policeman" like he used to be.

Because being a vanilla is boring. There is nothing you can do. But as a "normal policeman", there is a lot you can do. You have your investigations (or stake-out) so you can gather information yourself, make yourself allies or look for the BO (with some luck). And you have arrest which can have a huge impact on the game. This is much different than a vanilla, having to rely on the results of other players (or just guess and hope for the best).

About roles being differently powerful: It is the same as saying "KID disgusing as a normal policeman is better than a policeman, so the policeman should be stronger and KID should not be able to use all of his abilities".
Does anyone playing have a problem with the current rules that he is bothered about "how much more powerful his role was, if he was KID disguised as his role instead?" Yeah, it would be nice to be stronger. But even then each role should have enough interesting aspects already so there is no need for additional abilities. Of course if there is a role remaining that is "really bad" or "boring" I would not object in making it a bit better.
I just don't think any police role is in that state ATM.

Aside from that, a game that goes something like

Gin, Vodka, Megure, Shinichi, Araide
would be a better town list in all ways than
Gin, Vodka, Old Takagi, Shinichi, Araide
and that shouldn't ever be the case imo. Yes, Megure may be better than current Takagi, but takagi has an ability that makes him inherently different and useful in different ways than just being sub-megure. If you recall into the far past, my first suggestions to the police were always to weaken Megure. It was only after I realized that nobody wanted to make him weaker (other than making his house arrest weaker, but still holding him above satou) that I suggested buffing Satou with the detention ability.

Seeing it from the BO side again: Wouldn't it be much better if they had Vermouth disguised as Eisuke/Asami instead of Vodka instead? Then they wouldn't have to worry about interrogations on her. And she would still be able to trick anyone she wants.
So here we are in the same situation: One selection of roles is stronger than the other one.

[Yes, I know, Vermouth could be investigated for disguising instead. But that is a rather small disadvantage normally. On the same way someone could argument that normal arresting is better since you can't arrest a townie with an ability that is considered a crime by accident if you were actually looking for a murderer.]

I just say: If you really think that nakamori's 3 investigates are too much, then all the police who can investigate should have two. But I still don't think that's the case.

I still consider face-pinching a "super-investigate for disguises" that justifies him having one investigation less. And again, being a police makes him already a very strong threat to the BO which they pretty much HAVE to kill in order to win.

investigating Spying or not isn't that big a deal to me, and it may be too easy to nab bourbon on Night 1 because of it, unless perhaps you have to say "bourbon spied on X", where X is one of the people who ended up in bourbon's list or something.

On the same way you would be able to investigate deduction then. And... the BO knows who the murder for that day is. So Gins investigations could cover 5 townies at once and tell them quickly if one of them could be Yusaku/Okiya. No, we should keep it univestigationable.

[Akonyl]

replying point-by-point without quoting:

what is "boring" is entirely subjective though. The fact that a policeman can do something may be good and all, but megure can house search as well, which makes him more fun for most people, I would think. Vanilla townies can do stuff too by lynching, it's just much less than other characters. Megure > Old Takagi > Vanilla, and while it may be more extreme in the ccase of takagi vs vanilla, it's still the same issue between megure and takagi. Just because you think vanilla is boring and a normal policeman isn't doesn't mean that the argument can't be extrapolated for others.

Kid- is different though, as yes, he may be able to use more abilities, but he's catchable with arrests and every investigator in the game (including Gin, disguised BO and calvados) can easily pin him by saying "I think this person is Shinichi, so I'm gonna investigate them disguising as Shinichi". As the actual role, the only people able to do this are the DBs, but Kid remains vulnerable to the BO. While this disadvantage may not balance out his strength otherwise to some, it's a disability that the roles themselves don't have, so he's not just a "role, but more powerful" as you're saying he is.

Yes, none of them are in that state of "X is stronger than Y always", but I'm talking about your reverting to the "old police", where megure's just the top man.

As you pointed out, Vermouth-Asami is vulnerable due to her disguise, which I would argue makes her more vulnerable than you think. And aside from investigations, there's also face-pinching (which, if disguising is as powerful as you're trying to make it sound, is necessary and so why should Nakamori be nerfed, then?)

And if you're going to equate face-pinching to investigating, why not equate house-search to a super investigate + special investigate on disguising, killing, tricking, stealing, spying, erasing, etc? The abilities are inherently different and I think the fact that Nakamori can easily arrest Kid/Yukiko with it as well is enough reason that he shouldn't be reduced to two investigations because of it.

As for your comment on Deduction: I see what you mean, but I don't necessarily see why they should be tied together. Spying should be investigatable because it's a crime, and thus you need to be able to arrest someone for it. When you arrest someone for something, you always say something that would have been investigated as true. So you say "arresting Akonyl for slandering pofa on Night 1", just like you'd investigate "Akonyl slanders pofa" on night 1. How do you arrest someone for spying? Is it just "I arrest Akonyl for spying on Night 1"? Then you should be able to investigate "Did Akonyl spy?" on night 1, imo, and my suggestion was a way to make that more specific. If the only way that it can be arrested for is via House-Search, then I really don't see why it's a crime at all.

Just because Deduce and Spy both give back lists doesn't mean that they should both be investigatable, or uninvestigatable, etc. They are two different abilities, after all, just like healing and protecting.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Actually, Observe and stake out can't be figured out from investigating either.

this seems pretty "eh" to me, as part of the reason korn/chianti were given those actions was so they could blend in with the town, and if they can't be investigated, this is ruined. Also makes it a bit harder for takagi/chiba/jodie/camel to prove themselves.

Spy/Deduction, atm I don't think they can be investigated, but disguising doesn't have a target either (though it does have a role you need to guess). For Spying at least, I think you should be able to investigate it, as it's a crime, and otherwise you're really only gonna have megure arresting for it anyway when he house searches bourbon.

I'm fine with those police changes though

I formulated it wrong with "can't be figured out".

Observe/stake-out can be investigated. But if you check for "Kleene Observed Akonyl", I could also have used stake-out or the other way round. That's what I meant :V


Well, Spy/deduct should be so that you can investigate it, at least I intended it to be like that (otherwise I wouldn't have given them keywords. Since you just need Keywords for investigatable stuff anyway). But schillok is usually like: "nu~ you can't!"

Kir and James already have Investigate 1 OR Special Investigate. Having both seems too much to me, especially since they have other abilities as well.
I am really worried about the "power creep" that is happening for the town roles.

No, Round 19 just has "Special investigate" written there. Tho it should be Special investigate and investigate, since special investigate was changed and can only be used for past actions now. That's why I mentioned it

And I think it's better to give them Special investigate 1 AND Investigate 1 instead of OR.
Since Tome has special investigate and arrest. Compared to Tome, James and Kir should be far better. And you can just use investigate for current phase actions anyway. So it wouldn't make them too powerful.

If it was me I would return the police to their former state: Only Megure can house-search (but can't arrest as long as he has house-search) while the other police only have arrest and investigation or stake-out. And newcomer Nakamori with 2 investigations and face-pinching.
Police are so strong at the moment anyway - the BO can not win as long as there is one of them alive and they can turn around games with a single correct arrest that the BO thought they had won already. So if anyone really wants to change them: Maybe we should rework the OTHER townies first?

Afaik, you're the one who included Tome, who also has arrest. While other people didn't want to give tome the arrest ability

Because if we keep on adding new powers to townies then nobody can stop me when I suggest giving the Detective Boys some new ability. Mhh, maybe invincibility for them (Can't be killed because they are sleeping)? Considering they only have their shared identification ability it seems fair, right?
[Answer: No.]

I think this thread is a discussion Everyone has different experiences with the roles and rules.
I gave gin the power to do 2 slandering and investigating. Playing wise, this change totally backfired on me But I think that change was good, since the town improved, and Gin, one of the highest members, was pretty useless. Since no one cared about slandering. Since it was pretty unlikely that it would happen before with so many players playing.

Observe and Stake-Out can be investigated normaly. Though, it is not possible to differentiate which ability they used (if it was observe or stake out).
And no, Spy and Deduction can't be investigated, nor special investigated. And yeah... it means that a Spying BO can only be arrested by house-search. Which I am fine with - Bourbon is probably smart enough to hide the prove of his crimes well enough that a simple arrest won't be enough to prove what he was doing.

If we leave it like that, then the keyword deduct/spy should be removed XD Since it's irritating then Because the keywords are for investigations/stake-out use.

[Kleene Onigiri]

I don't see a problem with spying not being able to be investigated.
It's similar to conias Stalking. While conia is stalking, no one can detect him doing that XD But when you house search conias house, you'll find his stalking reports. Which makes it clear that conia was stalking
Also, you can't investigate blame, which is also a crime. So it's ok.

Also, I planned it that okiya and Bourbon are similar. So, if spy can be investigated, deduction should too. Or if not, both shouldn't.

[Akonyl]

Fair enough on the spying/deduction point. However, something else that needs to be considered is that this is the one case in the game where there's one keyword to two actions: One crime and one non-crime.

If Bourbon spies, and I try to arrest him for spying, the arrest would work. If Okiya deduces, and I arrest him for spying, he doesn't? Or he does?

If he does, then deducing is a crime, which is weird. Okiya, the smelly townie criminal... how unfortunate for him. D:
If he doesn't, this makes an easy way for Okiya to prove himself to police (see that crime I just did? Try arresting me for it :V)

As for james/kir, maybe they should be given both investigates each night, maybe they shouldn't, that's up for debate. I was just saying that during this round, they were supposed to be able to do one or the other, I'm pretty sure.

[Schillok]

what is "boring" is entirely subjective though. The fact that a policeman can do something may be good and all, but megure can house search as well, which makes him more fun for most people, I would think. Vanilla townies can do stuff too by lynching, it's just much less than other characters. Megure > Old Takagi > Vanilla, and while it may be more extreme in the ccase of takagi vs vanilla, it's still the same issue between megure and takagi. Just because you think vanilla is boring and a normal policeman isn't doesn't mean that the argument can't be extrapolated for others.

But there has to be an end to it at some point. Just because more powerful = more fun doesn't mean that actually making everyone more powerful would really lead to "more fun for everyone" game. Yeah sure, Shinichi with Investigate, Interrogate, Observe, Heal, Protect AND Reveal Culprit surely is more powerful than he is now (Ohh, and it can be justified easily, canon-wise)... but would it really be more fun to play that way? What if everyone was that way?
It would be horrible for the game.

IMO Megure, Shiratori and Nakamori are the most powerful roles in the game right now. Which is why I would really like to tone them down. Nakamori just seemed easiest. But you are right, we could use the chance to work on Shiratori and Megure as well. So: Instead of making them more equal to each other it would be much better to make them worse - make them more similar to the other police.
In the end it would mean more fun for everyone.

As for your comment on Deduction: I see what you mean, but I don't necessarily see why they should be tied together. Spying should be investigatable because it's a crime, and thus you need to be able to arrest someone for it. When you arrest someone for something, you always say something that would have been investigated as true. So you say "arresting Akonyl for slandering pofa on Night 1", just like you'd investigate "Akonyl slanders pofa" on night 1. How do you arrest someone for spying? Is it just "I arrest Akonyl for spying on Night 1"? Then you should be able to investigate "Did Akonyl spy?" on night 1, imo, and my suggestion was a way to make that more specific. If the only way that it can be arrested for is via House-Search, then I really don't see why it's a crime at all.

Just because Deduce and Spy both give back lists doesn't mean that they should both be investigatable, or uninvestigatable, etc. They are two different abilities, after all, just like healing and protecting.

Then let's just not make Spying a crime anymore. If you can't be arrested for it there is even less need to make it able to investigate. I prefer the idea of some actions not being able to be investigated. (In my case: Actions which lack a target - like Betray (which despite its name is no crime as well), Deduce or Spy.)

No, Round 19 just has "Special investigate" written there. Tho it should be Special investigate and investigate, since special investigate was changed and can only be used for past actions now. That's why I mentioned it

It was already mentioned: That was a mistake by the GM that game because we changed how Special Investigate works on a short notice.

Afaik, you're the one who included Tome, who also has arrest. While other people didn't want to give tome the arrest ability.

He is police. All police can arrest. So Tome can as well. Did we need anymore reason?
(Seriously, just like all Detectives have Interrogate - it is what ties them together.)

And... despite being Tome only for one night I think he is fine. A police, so a huge danger to the BO but not too good.

I think this thread is a discussion  Everyone has different experiences with the roles and rules.
I gave gin the power to do 2 slandering and investigating. Playing wise, this change totally backfired on me  But I think that change was good, since the town improved, and Gin, one of the highest members, was pretty useless. Since no one cared about slandering. Since it was pretty unlikely that it would happen before with so many players playing.

Well, making BO better is much less of a problem to me. Stronger BO means we could have less of them in the game and still have a good and fair game. But the more BO there are (to compensate for too powerful townies), the less forgiving the game becomes. I don't want the time back where 2 misslynches during day 1 and 2 meant the BO would win quickly afterwards.
Also: If we notice a role is too weak - for example because the number of players in a game increased over the time - there is no reason not to fix it. Again, my main concern is that certain roles might become too strong. And for the moment I see the main problem with some police, particularly with Shiratori, Megure and Nakamori. (We will see about Satô. The others seem to be fine.)