Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Schillok]

And if someone is disguised as Ran and get's injured:

a) Kogoro doesn't get sober, because it's not the real ran:
Ran* tells Kogoro that it was her that protected someone. Kogoro would then know that this Ran is disguised (in case it's really Ran)

Yeah. That is the risk of disguised Ran. Though... which role would that affect? There is only Kid and he had other ways to "prove himself".

b) Kogoro get's sober, even if the Ran that got injured was someone disguised
Then, Kogoro wouldn't know that Ran is disguised (in case the Ran player PMs Kogoro)

Of course, you could say: who would tell his role to someone? But Ran being injured is kinda useless then. So she can only be proven with special investigate or identify :V (afaik)

Maybe I didn't say it clear enough, but that's what I meant

Why special investigate and identify?!?
When Ran protected someone and got injured:

- no one gets killed, proving that there was a protection
- Ran gets to know the identity of the attacker

So she should have enough credibility up her sleeve at that moment. Making it a bit harder to 100% prove herself is not a big deal (and makes the town need some coordination, which would allow the BO to use this trick against them. Somehow.)



I didn't like the "Kogoro gets also sobber when Ran gets inured"-clause anyway. Though, it was there to make Kogoro a bit stronger, so I am fine with it. But there is no need to extend it also to disguised Rans. Finally: With disguises (permanent and temporary) it is possible that there is more than one Ran in the game. So in exact the same way Kogoro will know that the Ran who made him sober when she got injured was disguised when the real Ran (or Vermouth/Kid disguised as Ran; meaning both had the same disguise) dies/gets her role exposed.
No, we really should keep it only to non-disguised characters. If at all. Because I think finding a BO through protection is already worth it, no need to turn Kogoro on earlier. Because... well, he will become sobber sooner or later anyway, the "injured Ran" clause was only invented to prevent him from being useless if Ran got injured while protecting and the BO does not kill her to not turn Kogoro sobber.

Numabuchi... is even harder. Maybe we can leave the old "survive to win" condition, but add some other way for him to win? Like by killing a BO he would be allowed to win with the town? That way the BO can not work with him, because all he needs to do is kill one of them and he has his victory guaranteed. Would make him the opposite of the police-hater. Though, it does not have any synergy with his "paranoid self-stakeout". Again, more input on what we do with him might be good.

His purpose is to kill the BO anyway, I don't really see why that should be made his specific win condition. That's sort of like making Conan's win condition that he has to successfully interrogate a BO, and if he doesn't he doesn't get to win. If it's something that the player's going to be trying to do actively in the first place, you shouldn't penalize them for when they don't manage to carry it out.

I don't like the idea of any players on any side having to themselves survive the entire game to win with the rest of their team, tbh.

And I don't like the idea of having criminals on the side of the town. The town consists of Detectives and Police (and other idealists) who would never agree to such methods. Criminals must be different from the other townies. 

[Akonyl]

and the police force doesn't like Kid either, yet they work alongside him too.

But, that is completely different. Why is Akemi on the BO, helping Gin and killing her own sister? Why can Okiya, Akai and Bourbon all be in the same game? Why does anyone know about the BO other than Conan/Haibara/Agasa/Eisuke/the FBI anyway? Why is Akai killing people when he gets killed, anyway? Yes, the game is a Detective Conan game, but that's taken a back seat to balancing and fairness anyway.

Your issue is just about the flavor of the game, while the issue that I'm talking about though is one that actually pertains to the game itself and having it be fun for everyone involved. It's not fun to be stuck with a role that has a 10% chance of winning just because people thought it would work neat that way.

[Schillok]

Your issue is just about the flavor of the game, while the issue that I'm talking about though is one that actually pertains to the game itself and having it be fun for everyone involved. It's not fun to be stuck with a role that has a 10% chance of winning just because people thought it would work neat that way.

Actually, it is not just about the flavor. It is also not fun to play a role that should kill itself to increase its chance to win.


Imagine it is Night 2, you are Numabuchi you have no idea who the BO is. Which is the best action?
The problem is: The best action (probably) is to not kill and get yourself killed as a consequence. As long as you are killing randomly (which you will have to do, most of the game) you don't improve the chances of the town to win.
If there are 2/3 town and 1/3 BO, then after 3 kills you will most of the time have killed 2 towns and 1 BO afterwards. All you do is decrease the number of players, but you do not change the ratio between BO and town in the long run. The problem is: The town gets stronger, the longer the game goes on. Town will want long games (few deaths) to use its long-game advantage. Numabuchi will do exactly the opposite of that.

So, the best action fro night 2 in most games will be... to do nothing. To get yourself killed by not killing. So you have become a worse version of old Ran (who killed herself while protecting). At least old Ran had saved a townie and found a BO when she died. And she would not die on night 2, usually.
I would rather play a unique role that has a lower chance of winning than a role that increases the chances of its side by doing nothing and dying on night 2 (or stay alive by killing random players, decreasing the chances of your fraction winning).

Maybe the conditions of being not arrested and alive at the end of the game are too harsh. But just winning with the town has other consequences for that role I would rather avoid in advance.
There should be a good idea of something "in the middle" of our ideas...

[Akonyl]

Actually, it is not just about the flavor. It is also not fun to play a role that should kill itself to increase its chance to win.


Imagine it is Night 2, you are Numabuchi you have no idea who the BO is. Which is the best action?
The problem is: The best action (probably) is to not kill and get yourself killed as a consequence. As long as you are killing randomly (which you will have to do, most of the game) you don't improve the chances of the town to win.
If there are 2/3 town and 1/3 BO, then after 3 kills you will most of the time have killed 2 towns and 1 BO afterwards. All you do is decrease the number of players, but you do not change the ratio between BO and town in the long run. The problem is: The town gets stronger, the longer the game goes on. Town will want long games (few deaths) to use its long-game advantage. Numabuchi will do exactly the opposite of that.

So, the best action fro night 2 in most games will be... to do nothing. To get yourself killed by not killing. So you have become a worse version of old Ran (who killed herself while protecting). At least old Ran had saved a townie and found a BO when she died. And she would not die on night 2, usually.
I would rather play a unique role that has a lower chance of winning than a role that increases the chances of its side by doing nothing and dying on night 2 (or stay alive by killing random players, decreasing the chances of your fraction winning).

Maybe the conditions of being not arrested and alive at the end of the game are too harsh. But just winning with the town has other consequences for that role I would rather avoid in advance.
There should be a good idea of something "in the middle" of our ideas...

this is only if Numabuchi will never find leads ever. It's not uncommon for the thread to go "either DT or James Rye is BO, which one?", end up lynching one and being wrong, and having to wait until the next day to take care of him, whereas Numabuchi could just take care of him the next night and leave the next day open for a new BO. This was also the case for Breva and xpon last round, who people suspected but had to wait to take care of (because Kleene was lynched before xpon, and because a policeman needed to be found and told what to arrest Breva for first).

If your problem is with Numabuchi killing himself, this is also something Natsuki could easily do as well, by proclaiming her role in the thread and getting APTXed quickly afterwards, yet nom didn't do this (though her win condition never said anything about losing if you get APTXed). People will, for the most part, play to play, and thus I don't really see it being an issue of Numabuchis offing themselves to save the town (after all, old Rans hardly ever protected either that I can think of, because they preferred to stay in the game rather than save someone else). Though if you think it'll really be a problem, you could say that if Numabuchi kills himself because he refused to kill, he loses.

[Dus]

But would the BO even want to APTX Natsuki? Only if they're afraid of her hitlist, an announcing it would be a bad idea anyway:
=> No BOs on the list, she gets to live
=> BOs on the list, she's taken care of

[Akonyl]

announcing her role doesn't mean that she'd announce her hitlist, necessarily. I would imagine they'd want to take care of her semi-quickly anyway, because once someone has claimed an identifiable role, DBs and others can form alliances with them, and thus get in contact with other townies who had the same idea as well.

[Dus]

Or a BO could announce that they're Natsuki.

[Akonyl]

and then be immediately found out as false by DBs (thus obviously BO, because what townie would wanna claim natsuki?), or found out as false once they fail at proving their ability to special investigate/interrogate.

[Dus]

Like something like that has never been done before I still thinking announcing that you're Natsuki is a dubious strategy, unless you're fairly sure you have only townies left on your list.

[Akonyl]

about as dubious as killing yourself just because you're Numabuchi, imo.

[Dus]

Agreed

[Schillok]

this is only if Numabuchi will never find leads ever. It's not uncommon for the thread to go "either DT or James Rye is BO, which one?", end up lynching one and being wrong, and having to wait until the next day to take care of him, whereas Numabuchi could just take care of him the next night and leave the next day open for a new BO. This was also the case for Breva and xpon last round, who people suspected but had to wait to take care of (because Kleene was lynched before xpon, and because a policeman needed to be found and told what to arrest Breva for first).

Well, that would make things worse for the BO but... I can see the way that role can be useful. Though again, flavor-wise this would be Numabuchi pursuing the BO instead of running away. I guess he is cornered so it is acceptable though.

If your problem is with Numabuchi killing himself, this is also something Natsuki could easily do as well, by proclaiming her role in the thread and getting APTXed quickly afterwards, yet nom didn't do this (though her win condition never said anything about losing if you get APTXed).

Ohh. I thought she would only win when she is alive... didn't know that APTX and night killings were not included. Actually, I didn't even think about that possibility. Maybe we could do the same for Numabuchi? He loses if he gets lynched, arrested or kills himself? But can still win with the town when he gets killed at night or by APTX.

People will, for the most part, play to play, and thus I don't really see it being an issue of Numabuchis offing themselves to save the town (after all, old Rans hardly ever protected either that I can think of, because they preferred to stay in the game rather than save someone else).

Well, but you made it sound like the problem was about "winning" in the last post. If people cared only about winning and less about playing this would be the better choice, sometimes. And honestly, I don't want to be put in such a situation where my own chance of winning increases by killing myself. (Yeah, the same could be true for a BO being sacrificed so one of their members would gain trust. But... that did - to my knowledge - not happen yet either. And at least the consequence of the sacrifice would be more evident and stay in the memory much more than being buried by statistics like Numabuchi killing himself.)

Though if you think it'll really be a problem, you could say that if Numabuchi kills himself because he refused to kill, he loses.

Well... this sounds like an improvement.
BTW... what happens if Numabuchi tried to kill but got discombobulated? Will he have to kill himself?



Anyway, I had an idea. Yeah, another one. Why shouldn't we use the paranoia status a bit better?
How about that he learns after each night which players did target him with actions during that night (and the previous day - or the preparation phase, during night 1). The next night he can only kill a person from that list (So someone who got to close to him, and who is he now paranoid of.) He will only kill players who he feels threatened by.
We could leave his self-stakeout. And it would actually help him a bit. If he learns that he was investigated and observed that might have been by BO roles. So he could go out and kill one of them.

Example:
Dus is Numabuchi and was tried to be befriended by Sonoko (Player A) and KID tried to take his role (Player B). During night 1, Satou investigated him (Player C) and Gin slandered him (player D),
After night 1 he will know:
a) That he was investigated and slandered.
b) On his list of possible victims are now: Player A, Player B, Player C, Player D - though he will not know who was the one slandering him (nor who were from preparation phase and who from night 1).

During night 2 he has to kill one of them (for example player A). After night 2 he will now again learn the results from the self-stakeout and get more names for his list of players who targeted him during the day (Player E) and during the night (Player F). So during night 3 he can now choose to kill B,C, D, E or F...
(Should we allow him to kill a player who lynch-voted for him as well?)

As I said, it is just an idea. There are some weaknesses. For example for players who do not get targeted by abilities because they are less famous/less active. And also because of the chances that he has to kill a protector because it is the only target on his list...
Also, he should erase his targets so it becomes less obvious who he is when players write down their last actions in their wills.
Still... I think it reflects the "paranoid"-status a bit better. Though, the role just got more complicated once more.

[Akonyl]

Ohh. I thought she would only win when she is alive... didn't know that APTX and night killings were not included. Actually, I didn't even think about that possibility. Maybe we could do the same for Numabuchi? He loses if he gets lynched, arrested or kills himself? But can still win with the town when he gets killed at night or by APTX.

that might be alright as well, as those are for the most part things he should be able to avoid himself, whereas just getting killed by the BO isn't really.

Well, but you made it sound like the problem was about "winning" in the last post. If people cared only about winning and less about playing this would be the better choice, sometimes. And honestly, I don't want to be put in such a situation where my own chance of winning increases by killing myself. (Yeah, the same could be true for a BO being sacrificed so one of their members would gain trust. But... that did - to my knowledge - not happen yet either. And at least the consequence of the sacrifice would be more evident and stay in the memory much more than being buried by statistics like Numabuchi killing himself.)

Different issues about winning. I didn't say that people only care about winning, because not everybody does, however even people who don't care all about winning don't want to have a role that has zero chance of it. For example, I don't care so much about winning that I'd kill myself so that my side has an easier chance to win, but I also don't want to be stuck with a role that has a snowball's chance in hell of winning, either. I can't say for sure about others, but I would guess that some others share similar feelings.

We've actually had a very similar conversation before, about having roles which are intentionally weak in the game. You said that it was a good idea, as such roles could attempt to bait the BO to keep them away from stronger roles, yet here you're mentioning that you don't want a role whose strategy consists of getting itself killed? Not exactly sure which stance you have here.

Well... this sounds like an improvement.
BTW... what happens if Numabuchi tried to kill but got discombobulated? Will he have to kill himself?

that would just be mean, so I see no reason why he should die in such a case.

He'd just have to be given an extra night to complete the killing (so, basically just don't count the discombobulated night). The only problem with this is if he gets in contact with an Eisuke who chain-discombobulates him to keep him from killing, but then Eisuke's taken himself out of the game for the most part anyway, which is almost as bad as being killed by Numabuchi in the first place.

Anyway, I had an idea. Yeah, another one. Why shouldn't we use the paranoia status a bit better?
How about that he learns after each night which players did target him with actions during that night (and the previous day - or the preparation phase, during night 1). The next night he can only kill a person from that list (So someone who got to close to him, and who is he now paranoid of.) He will only kill players who he feels threatened by.
We could leave his self-stakeout. And it would actually help him a bit. If he learns that he was investigated and observed that might have been by BO roles. So he could go out and kill one of them.

Example:
Dus is Numabuchi and was tried to be befriended by Sonoko (Player A) and KID tried to take his role (Player B). During night 1, Satou investigated him (Player C) and Gin slandered him (player D),
After night 1 he will know:
a) That he was investigated and slandered.
b) On his list of possible victims are now: Player A, Player B, Player C, Player D - though he will not know who was the one slandering him (nor who were from preparation phase and who from night 1).

During night 2 he has to kill one of them (for example player A). After night 2 he will now again learn the results from the self-stakeout and get more names for his list of players who targeted him during the day (Player E) and during the night (Player F). So during night 3 he can now choose to kill B,C, D, E or F...
(Should we allow him to kill a player who lynch-voted for him as well?)

As I said, it is just an idea. There are some weaknesses. For example for players who do not get targeted by abilities because they are less famous/less active. And also because of the chances that he has to kill a protector because it is the only target on his list...
Also, he should erase his targets so it becomes less obvious who he is when players write down their last actions in their wills.
Still... I think it reflects the "paranoid"-status a bit better. Though, the role just got more complicated once more.

it fits, however that then potentially destroys his very purpose, which is to kill potential leads that he finds, as more likely than not, the person who people suspect hasn't happened to act on him the night before. So, if Numabuchi finds out on Day 3 that people suspect Kleene of being Gin, he can't kill her on Night 4 unless she slandered/investigated him on Night 3, forcing him to kill someone who probably ends up being a townie.

[Detective Tommy]

I don't exactly like the idea that he kills only the people that does actions on him... But I have no ideas on making him more balanced, so I guess it's the best thing we got.

[Abs.]

So let's say only Schillok(Megure) had done an action on me on Night 1, and no one had done any actions on me during the prep phase.  I guess my(Numabuchi) hitlist would just consist of...  Schillok?

Btw IIRC Natsuki had the condition where even if she died, the hitlist people would still die night after night until 4 of them were dead...