Homosexuality: A Survey

[Jd-]

I cannot say I agree with this one (LET ME FINISH, PLEASE) because I think YOU are DESPERATELY AND UTTERLY WRONG in understanding the Bible.

Wait, so you are saying that the Bible rightfully outlaws homosexuality and/or gay marriage? Because that is what it means to disagree with that statement. The word rightfully is there for a reason. That statement has NOTHING to do with my own knowledge, but I again am not surprised that you have difficulty understanding something even that elementary. That statement simply asks: "Does the Bible or any other religious text rightfully make it illegal for gays to marry?" It has nothing to do with my interpretation of it. It has to do with YOUR interpretation of it, not mine. Glad to know where you really stand on the issue, though.

By the way, while you go on being condescending again and making assumptions: I am willing to wager that I not only know more about the Bible, have read more of it, have read it more often, and can quote from it more freely than you, but that I also understand the principles, fables, and morals presented in it better than you do. If you would like to take me up on this challenge, I would be more than willing to have a worthy adjudicator elected from this topic to oversee the debate (dilbertschalter seems worthy of the task, as he knows as much about the Bible as anyone I've seen). I read the Bible almost daily and have absolutely no qualms with having my knowledge of the scripture put to the test, especially by someone that has yet to demonstrate they know anything about it.

[PhoenixTears]

I am "playing the victim" because I feel offended, even though you probably didn't mean to offend me (at least at the beginning), just like you felt offended when I didn't mean to insult you.

How could you possibly care about my feelings and not respect me at the same time? Are you joking?

The difference is that when I felt insulted by you, I didn't pull the victim card, I just continued backing up my points.

And no, I'm not joking. I do not like hurting people, whether I actually like or respect the person or not.

[Dwalin]

I cannot say I agree with this one (LET ME FINISH, PLEASE) because I think YOU are DESPERATELY AND UTTERLY WRONG in understanding the Bible.

Wait, so you are saying that the Bible rightfully outlaws homosexuality and/or gay marriage? Because that is what it means to disagree with that statement. The word rightfully is there for a reason. That statement has NOTHING to do with my own knowledge, but I again am not surprised that you have difficulty understanding something even that elementary. That statement simply asks: "Does the Bible or any other religious text rightfully make it illegal for gays to marry?" It has nothing to do with my interpretation of it. It has to do with YOUR interpretation of it, not mine. Glad to know where you really stand on the issue, though.

By the way, while you go on being condescending again and making assumptions: I am willing to wager that I not only know more about the Bible, have read more of it, have read it more often, and can quote from it more freely than you, but that I also understand the principles, fables, and morals presented in it better than you do. If you would like to take me up on this challenge, I would be more than willing to have a worthy adjudicator elected from this topic to oversee the debate (dilbertschalter seems worthy of the task, as he knows as much about the Bible as anyone I've seen). I read the Bible almost daily and have absolutely no qualms with having my knowledge of the scripture put to the test, especially by someone that has yet to demonstrate they know anything about it.

What I meant is that I prefer to disregard the Old Testament because, as I said, I don't believe it to represent outright God's will for the present time. The question of homosexuality is openly discussed only in the Old Testament, as far as I know.

I read the Bible almost daily

May I ask you why, if you don't believe in God?

[Kor]

I'm not entirely sure on how to put it, but with free will I think that God (or whatever you'd like to call it ) is actually - and ironically - putting his own faith in people for them to do the "right" thing.

And if the old testament teaches us anything is that this decision was a really bad one on God's case, as the people he himself has chosen have done repeatedly the so many stuff he told them not too.

This is an aspect of the bible which I have always found a bit amusing. The bible constantly makes it sound like God is just a human.

What I meant is that I prefer to disregard the Old Testament because, as I said, I don't believe it to represent outright God's will for the present time. The question of homosexuality is openly discussed only in the Old Testament, as far as I know.

So doesn't that mean that God's will is outdated.

[Jd-]

What I meant is that I prefer to disregard the Old Testament because, as I said, I don't believe it to represent outright God's will for the present time. The question of homosexuality is openly discussed only in the Old Testament, as far as I know.

What you said was not correct and neither is what you've just said here. Re-read the statement and decide whether you agree or not. I again say that it has NOTHING to do with what I believe: Do you believe that the Bible or any other religious doctrine rightfully outlaws gay marriage? It's that simple.

I read the Bible almost daily

May I ask you why, if you don't believe in God?

As I stated elsewhere in this topic:

Part of educating yourself is familiarizing yourself both sides of an issue.

In other words: "It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment."

I read everything, from both sides, with equal consideration when forming my opinions. I am involved in the study of human psychology and the psychology of faith and delusion is part of that. Throughout my lifetime, I intend to be as familiar with the other principle holy books as I am with the Bible and will do so proudly. If you agree with the scientific method, you have to avoid being blinded by bias. That is how I am able to understand the Bible so easily.

[Dwalin]

So doesn't that mean that God's will is outdated.

What can I say? I can say only what I personally think about this, but I don't think it would interest to anybody here. I will say it, if you want, feel free to delete it.
I think people at the times of the Old Testament and before were cruel, without any morals. The Old Testament isn't exactly a model for today because, in my opinion, it was partially made up by people and because they simply wouldn't have understood anything else more similar to the modern concept of "being good". For example, the Old Testament says "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", that means that you have to answer to an offense with the same offense, while before there was just reasoning like "kill and fight when you feel like it". It wasn't even vengeance, but just pure violence without anything resembling order, even cruel order. There is no reason to follow the Old Testament now because people have changed and are ready for other, more strict morals.

I again say that it has NOTHING to do with what I believe: Do you believe that the Bible or any other religious doctrine rightfully outlaws gay marriage? It's that simple.

I believe the OLD TESTAMENT wrongfully outlaws gay marriage. It's that simple.

[Jd-]

I believe the OLD TESTAMENT wrongfully outlaws gay marriage. It's that simple.

So it is, then, possible that the New Testament or any other religious doctrine the world over does rightfully outlaw gay marriage, right? That is what you continue to imply. This is not about the Old Testament, and homosexuality does not need to be in the New Testament for this question to be answered. It is a philosophical and humanitarian question. Is it possible in any way that the Bible or any other religious doctrine can be used as rightful means to legally prohibit gay people from being married? You continue to answer the question as you want it to be while skirting the issue and gleefully opting to interpret it how you want instead of how it is (again demonstrating you live for the strawman). I don't know if there's a language barrier at work, but it is certainly starting to seem that way.

Also: Your take on the Old Testament is senseless. You need to do more research. Well, you actually to do any research, because from that post, it's almost too clear you've never done any whatsoever. You have yet to demonstrate you have any intellectual hold on the Bible (or any other subject), whether it be the New Testament or the Old Testament.

Don't forget:

Misconstruing something someone has said and creating an argument from it does not suddenly mean you have a point.

[kkslider5552000]

i saw Dwalin post and immediately knew i missed a trip on the fail train

honestly, just use the term "true fans" and you will be at least pratically everything I hate about people, especially on the internet.

[Dwalin]

So it is, then, possible that the New Testament or any other religious doctrine the world over does rightfully outlaw gay marriage, right? That is what you continue to imply.

I am NOT implying that, please stop making fun of me. I already said I agree with your statement about the rights and freedom of homosexuals. What do you want me to do? Go to the street and start shouting "give the homosexuals more rights"? I continue posting not because I am a troll, I just hoped to reach an agreement and wanted to reconcile myself with others. If you are giving me only 2 choices:
1) Become your puppet or a parrot that repeats every word of yours
2) Get out of the thread
then why don't you just say so? I have nothing, NOTHING against the idea of giving the homosexuals equal rights. But I also have my religion and my faith which seem so ridiculous to you and which I don't see as being in contradiction with your principles. You said that you would defend anybody's freedom of believing in what he/she wants, so why are you so determined in catching me saying something that contradicts your logic?
By the way, maybe you are right about the language barrier.

i saw Dwalin post and immediately knew i missed a trip on the fail train

honestly, just use the term "true fans" and you will be at least pratically everything I hate about people, especially on the internet.

Here it's definitely something about me not understanding some English expressions. Do you mean you hate me? For what?

[kirite]

@Dwalin:

So...you support the rights and freedoms of homosexuals...and support a religion and faith who discriminates against homosexuals.  I think that's what's giving people some confusion.

I know Catholic friends who are homosexuals.  When they were growing up they believed they were evil, horrible, disgusting, flawed people and hid themselves away from everyone including their family.  They put on a mask and let no one in, getting sicker and sicker of themselves.  I find when I grew up with them, they were the most violent, angry and intolerant people I know. 

Now that we're all older, they came out of the closet, and is all together happier people.  However in the end they know in the eyes of their family and the church they are sinners.  There is nothing wrong with supporting your religion per say, however a religious doctrine that makes people feel terrible for being themselves.  It's not exactly hard to see why people are so angry is it?  Just as you want them to understand I would hope you understand where all the "negative feeling" is from.  Not that there is much negative feeling here?

Has anyone called you fag?  Useless?  Trash?  Has anyone told you to hurry up and die?  I don't think so.  Sure there are jabs here and there but I don't feel much hostility here.  It's a pretty peaceful forum really. 

[Dwalin]

@Dwalin:

So...you support the rights and freedoms of homosexuals...and support a religion and faith who discriminates against homosexuals.  I think that's what's giving people some confusion.

I know Catholic friends who are homosexuals.  When they were growing up they believed they were evil, horrible, disgusting, flawed people and hid themselves away from everyone including their family.  They put on a mask and let no one in, getting sicker and sicker of themselves.  I find when I grew up with them, they were the most violent, angry and intolerant people I know.  

Now that we're all older, they came out of the closet, and is all together happier people.  However in the end they know in the eyes of their family and the church they are sinners.  There is nothing wrong with supporting your religion per say, however a religious doctrine that makes people feel terrible for being themselves.   It's not exactly hard to see why people are so angry is it?  Just as you want them to understand I would hope you understand where all the "negative feeling" is from.  Not that there is much negative feeling here?

Has anyone called you fag?  Useless?  Trash?  Has anyone told you to hurry up and die?  I don't think so.  Sure there are jabs here and there but I don't feel much hostility here.  It's a pretty peaceful forum really.  

I don't follow everything in the Bible (especially the Old Testament) to the letter, it's full of allegories. I am not an enemy of homosexuals and, as I said, morals are changing. Why couldn't I be a Christian without having to argue with the supporters of homosexuals?
And also, in my opinion, you can't take the Bible apart by logic alone. People may disagree with that, but at least could do it in a polite way.  

[mangaluva]

Actually, you can very easily take the Bible apart with logic. My RMPS class went through Genesis and came up with over 20 logical impossibilities and contradictions, IIRC. Can't find my own jotter right now. That's just the first book...

[Jd-]

So it is, then, possible that the New Testament or any other religious doctrine the world over does rightfully outlaw gay marriage, right? That is what you continue to imply.

I am NOT implying that, please stop making fun of me. I already said I agree with your statement about the rights and freedom of homosexuals. What do you want me to do? Go to the street and start shouting "give the homosexuals more rights"? I continue posting not because I am a troll, I just hoped to reach an agreement and wanted to reconcile myself with others. If you are giving me only 2 choices:
1) Become your puppet or a parrot that repeats every word of yours
2) Get out of the thread
then why don't you just say so? I have nothing, NOTHING against the idea of giving the homosexuals equal rights. But I also have my religion and my faith which seem so ridiculous to you and which I don't see as being in contradiction with your principles. You said that you would defend anybody's freedom of believing in what he/she wants, so why are you so determined in catching me by saying something that contradicts your logic?
By the way, maybe you are right about the language barrier.

Stop victimizing yourself and please for the love of all that is READ THIS LINK.

Misconstruing something someone has said and creating an argument from it does not suddenly mean you have a point.

It is not an effective debating tactic. It is childish. Read the link if you intend to contribute further to this discussion (not that you've made any contribution so far) because, if you do not, I fear you will continue to embarrass yourself further. Stop victimizing yourself.

Misconstruing something someone has said and creating an argument from it does not suddenly mean you have a point.

Beyond that, NO ONE SAID THOSE WERE YOUR TWO OPTIONS. Stop victimizing yourself. No one said anything about my beliefs. If you do not agree with the sentiment that no religion, including your beloved Bible that you don't even seem to know anything about, should be able to rightfully prohibit by law the ability of gay people to be married, then you are saying that the Bible or another religious doctrine CAN rightfully prohibit by law the ability of gay people to be married. This is a question that does only have two options. Either you agree with the statement saying that religion should not be able to legally prohibit gay people from being married or else you disagree and think religion can rightfully legally prohibit gay people from being married. There is no middle ground. Agreeing with me or anyone else on this does not make you wrong about everything else. It's a simple demonstration of loving your fellow man. If you are that insecure, I'm not sure you're ready for any sort of discussion on anything. Stop victimizing yourself.

Misconstruing something someone has said and creating an argument from it does not suddenly mean you have a point.

Let me say this one more time:

If you're going to reply to someone, reply to the points of their argument instead of picking out random sentences that you feel you have some sort of argument against. If you cannot demonstrate that you can suitably siphon out those points in a manner that is reasonably adequate, it is better to not try to do so.

If that wasn't clear enough, let me add this:

Selectively replying to someone's argument and avoiding many if not all of their points that clearly prove you are wrong [b]does not make you right. It only makes you appear even more wrong than before when you continue to reply to just one or two sentences and do so falsely without even considering the original context or even the original point itself.[/b]

[Dwalin]

Jd-@
I am not debating, I am just trying to defend myself. Have been since you and others accused me of implying homosexuals are immoral, for which I apologized. No need to write such long posts and to repeat the same sentences. I am not that stupid and you know that even if you pretend not to. I understand that everybody with a different opinion in this thread is frowned upon, but why not just reconcile before I go away? I agree religion shouldn't outlaw gay marriage, I am just saying I don't follow EVERYTHING in the Bible to the letter, because I think it was never the original intention.

[Edogawa4869]

I don't follow EVERYTHING in the Bible to the letter, because I think it was never the original intention.

Excuse me for asking, but if this is indeed the case, then why do you seem to follow that particular passage?

(Please note that I could be totally wrong in my understanding of your arguments thusfar, so please forgive me if that's the case.)