I'm still annoyed at the Revival/Shinichi's Return/Shirigami-sama case

[dilbertschalter]

this is an interesting thread topic, let's try not to get off-topic.

[Freyr]

this is an interesting thread topic, let's try not to get off-topic.

This.

It is interesting to see how polarizing that part of the Shirigami case is between fans: those that found it weird and those that accepted it. Really, it could have meant nothing more than a hint to the astute to figure out the climax as far as we know. Or Gosho may have thought of reasons like I detailed earlier. Or he just wasn't thinking and did something weird, till he gets on here and tells us, we'll remain in the dark.

Same goes for how he has handled the relationships. It is easy to separate the different eras (a la pre-Haibara/127) and see that they do feel different. Kk is right in that the early stuff really is connected solely because of the romantic comedy with Ran/Conan. Then it's like "okay green light, they like this stuff, time to make a story out of it." Explores Haibara's part for a while, then sees what he can do with Vermouth, then the FBI, onto Bourbon, onto... wherever he ends up.

The story has changed drastically since the times of the early romance-without-plot, since Haibara was introduced, since... His motivations, goals, structure, have all been re-evaluated constantly to tell the story he wants to tell (at his own pace). And until we know his ultimate goal with the characters, hard to say if he is going about it correctly or not. All we do know is DC is not the same now as it was before, for better or worse.

[Misztina]

Without reading any other comments, sorry I will do that later, and sorry for repeating a anything.

I think the Desp. Revival arc was brilliant, well done in every aspect. BUT I do agree that the other too Shinichi revival's were not as good as they could have been. I felt like they were rushed and were not as well written as Desp. Rev..

I have some minor complaints, like why has no one done anything about Haibara's comments that she was gonna trick Shinichi into taking the antidote?

It was pointed out by some people, but it was not really the main concern there. I would have loved to see her tricking Shinichi into taking the pill actually. Mght have been more fun. ^^

But my real problem was Ran. Why can she suddenly...basically "sense" when Shinichi is not actually Shinichi?

Well, that's again Gosho's fault, since he already hinted ages ago in the Gomera costume case that a girl can sense her beloved one even if that person wears a costume, because she knows every move and etc. about that person. I think Gosho wants to keep this (beautiful) motive for the end, although it was played out to some extent in the Desp. Rev. arc already.

Why can't she sense Conan=Shinichi then? I think this is more complicated. First of all, back in the begining she did see the resemblance, but was fooled by Conan and Agasa. Then again, it happened, with the photo case. She was fooled a bit by Yukiko and Conan, but she actually stayed alarmed and realized she wasn't wrong at all, which lead to the Desp. Rev. arc, where she was fooled again and last but not least, her last suspicion was also cleared with a clever move from Conan, Agasa and Ai.

Ran fights heart with reason, and up until now reason won. DC is about reasoning, is about the brains, so her feelings (being around reasoning detectives) were/are oppressed. She looks like a fool, we even laugh at her, how can you not realize taht he is Shinichi, you stupi girl?, but if we wouldn't know that Conan=Shinichi and all the background stuff, we would think the same or something similar as Ran. People tend to forget this.
Also, she has a very distorted image of Shinichi, that's mainly his fault, for acting as such an arrogant brat that lead to Ran to think he is a playboy like guy. Ran up until now  did not realize that Shinichi is not that mature in his heart, or rather he is naive and dreamy too, his heart is not corrupted, just because he acts like a cool guy.

Why did Gosho throw away the only real drama the Shinichi and Ran relationship had anymore? The only real possibility that doesn't involve a stupid twist ending for Shinichi X Ran not being blatantly canon was the ending of episode 308 before Akai appeared with the "do hearts grow apart when separated?" thing. While Gosho dropped the ball with any attempt at continuing the odd Conan/Ran/Haibara love triangle (you know, to make room for more Detective Boys and Eri's cat), the lack of Ran and Shinichi stuff could have been somewhat justifed by this. This seemed like the perfect opportunity, no, this WAS the perfect opportunity to do that. But that will never happen as Ran loves Shinichi and knows him so well that she only has feelings for the real Shinichi and always will, yippee! 

The outside world provides many scary examples of how relationships can go wrong (murders, misunderstandings) and Gosho tries to keep Shinichi's and Ran's love as pure as possible in order to show, that this can happen. Continuing the love triangle would have been only good in shoujo's anyways, and would make this attempt a failure. ShinXRan's feelings might be uncertain sometimes sue to lack of trust and everything, but that is as far as Gosho wants to go.
Gosho has principles, has plans, but... he did not plan DC to go for this long so that is the reason (in my opinion) why things are a bit steady. he can't go further in ConxAi without ruining Shinichi's true image.

The wrong thing is with DC that it has to go on and Gosho can't fill up that time with proper romance.

[1Kaito]

I don't think Gosho "dropped" Haibara. He put her on hold.
Since haibara is connected to the BO. So if there is more BO plot, then he can reveal more about haibara again.
Since there was ALMOST NO BO PLOT at all for the last 1000 chapters, there isn't much he can reveal about haibara either. Since he saves her up for the BO plot.

I'd find it strange if haibara would talk about her past to conan because she feels like it :V She's not really the type that want's to talk about it if she doesn't have to.

I'm pretty sure there has been at least two more BO plots since the one she was actually important in. And Gosho definitely dropped Haibara, maybe not completely as character but the concept of Haibara is nearly gone you can just tell from comparing the "200 to mid 300 episode" Haibara from the Episode 400+ Haibara. She is way too different and it isn't just character development. She has almost completely changed without any warning what-so-ever. Also the possibility/hope of AiXConan died with the Old Ai as well because after she changed suddenly all of the little hints Gosho put stopped.

[Shuusgirl]

But my real problem was Ran. Why can she suddenly...basically "sense" when Shinichi is not actually Shinichi?

Well, that's again Gosho's fault, since he already hinted ages ago in the Gomera costume case that a girl can sense her beloved one even if that person wears a costume, because she knows every move and etc. about that person. I think Gosho wants to keep this (beautiful) motive for the end, although it was played out to some extent in the Desp. Rev. arc already.

Why can't she sense Conan=Shinichi then? I think this is more complicated. First of all, back in the begining she did see the resemblance, but was fooled by Conan and Agasa. Then again, it happened, with the photo case. She was fooled a bit by Yukiko and Conan, but she actually stayed alarmed and realized she wasn't wrong at all, which lead to the Desp. Rev. arc, where she was fooled again and last but not least, her last suspicion was also cleared with a clever move from Conan, Agasa and Ai.

Ran fights heart with reason, and up until now reason won. DC is about reasoning, is about the brains, so her feelings (being around reasoning detectives) were/are oppressed. She looks like a fool, we even laugh at her, how can you not realize taht he is Shinichi, you stupi girl?, but if we wouldn't know that Conan=Shinichi and all the background stuff, we would think the same or something similar as Ran. People tend to forget this.
Also, she has a very distorted image of Shinichi, that's mainly his fault, for acting as such an arrogant brat that lead to Ran to think he is a playboy like guy. Ran up until now  did not realize that Shinichi is not that mature in his heart, or rather he is naive and dreamy too, his heart is not corrupted, just because he acts like a cool guy.

I agree.  It's not just Ran who can "sense" stuff with Shinichi, he also has a feeling whenever she's in danger.  It didn't seem weird to me that she could tell Shinichi wasn't Shinichi because there have been several instances of similar things happening.
It's definitely true that people give Ran the short end of the stick because she hasn't figured out Conan=Shinichi yet.  But Eisuke points out why that wouldn't be the first thing that comes to mind when he says that trying to figure out how Shinchi became Conan hurt his head so he gave up. 
And about the distorted image, it seems to me that lots of manga writers like to use that.  Although I wouldn't say that Shinichi's not mature (I think that putting Ran's feelings first shows he is) but that he's a little innocent.  Which is just fine with me.

[AICHAN]

I don't think Gosho "dropped" Haibara. He put her on hold.
Since haibara is connected to the BO. So if there is more BO plot, then he can reveal more about haibara again.
Since there was ALMOST NO BO PLOT at all for the last 1000 chapters, there isn't much he can reveal about haibara either. Since he saves her up for the BO plot.

I'd find it strange if haibara would talk about her past to conan because she feels like it :V She's not really the type that want's to talk about it if she doesn't have to.

I'm pretty sure there has been at least two more BO plots since the one she was actually important in. And Gosho definitely dropped Haibara, maybe not completely as character but the concept of Haibara is nearly gone you can just tell from comparing the "200 to mid 300 episode" Haibara from the Episode 400+ Haibara. She is way too different and it isn't just character development. She has almost completely changed without any warning what-so-ever. Also the possibility/hope of AiXConan died with the Old Ai as well because after she changed suddenly all of the little hints Gosho put stopped.

I agree that it feels like Gosho dropped Haibara...now she's just an other DB,and she sometime give a pill to Conan,but she doesn't play a big role for the moment...

The last BO cases didn't involved Haibara...but I think it's because Akai was involved and I guess Gosho doesn't want Haibara to meet him at that moment...That's why I'm pretty sure she'll have a big role in the Bourbon arc^^we just have to wait...
but I kinda miss the old Ai...she used to be so unique and different from the other characters...now she acts as a DB...

[Wakarimashita]

I too regret the old Ai but I understand Gosho changing her personality a bit. I mean, most people complain because the characters in this manga are very static (they remain the same or change very very slowly), and when we have a character who's behaviour has clearly changed, people also complain because they prefered her before. So, what is the author supposed to do exactly ?

[Sherry86]

@AICHAN

Spoiler:

In the latest chapter, I think Ai became Conan's partner again although she still babysit the DB, too.

@Wakarimashita
If Gosho change 18 years old genius evil scientist who made APTX4869 to 8 years old ordinary kid who like playing Karuta Card, I can't accept that. 

[Wakarimashita]

It's not that unrealistic given her condition.

[Kleene Onigiri]

I don't understand why every character in a series has to change over time Some people stay the same forever :V Or be at least the same for the most part.

[AICHAN]

I too regret the old Ai but I understand Gosho changing her personality a bit. I mean, most people complain because the characters in this manga are very static (they remain the same or change very very slowly), and when we have a character who's behaviour has clearly changed, people also complain because they prefered her before. So, what is the author supposed to do exactly ?

Don't get me wrong,I'm happy that Haibara changed(she 's nicer,she cares about other people...)but I was expecting her to change in an other way (like being more active in the BO plot )instead of being just an other Detective boys...

anyway as I said,maybe it's because Gosho is planning something bigger for her in the future...

I just miss the suicidal Ai,but I think that's because I'm weird XDDD

I don't understand why every character in a series has to change over time Some people stay the same forever :V Or be at least the same for the most part.

because everybody in real life change over time... it makes the series more realistic...

[c-square]

No, no.  I've just finished reading the posts on this thread, and you guys have got it all wrong. 

The main love triangle in DC is Mitsuhiko -> Ayumi <- Genta.  Ai was brought into the series specifically to shake this triangle up, resulting in the Mitsuhiko x Ai possibility (Just you wait.  It'll happen!).  Recently, this triangle has stagnated, but that stagnation can also be seen as them having developed such a close familiarity that they've just reached the "they're all married to each other" stage.

er... what was this topic originally about again? 

Spoiler:

Oh yeah, Shinichi's return!   

I'm to the point where I dread any Conan-becomes-Shinichi-again-but-only-long-enough-to-make-Ran-get-all-weepy story.  I personally both love and hate the Desperate Revival arc.  I love it because it offered such promise and suspense, and hate it because after all was said and done, nothing really changed for the two of them.  Since then, every time Shinichi appears, it's the same old story repeated, just worse and worse each time.  They had an opportunity to do something interesting in the Shirigami case by playing with the amnesia idea, but in the end it devolved into that same, old story we've seen time and time again. 

IMHO, the only time since the Desperate Revival arc that Shinichi returns that has actually been any good was OVA 9 (which was AWESOME!!), and that wasn't even canon!  I'm really hoping this new story that people are spoilering (thank you), is something different than the same old worn out story we've seen way too many times already.

[Kleene Onigiri]

I don't understand why every character in a series has to change over time Some people stay the same forever :V Or be at least the same for the most part.

because everybody in real life change over time... it makes the series more realistic...

Yeah over time. But not everybody changes drastically.
Also, "over time". There is no real timeline in DC. The DC world didn't pass 10+ years, like in the real world.

[sonoci]

No, no.  I've just finished reading the posts on this thread, and you guys have got it all wrong. 

The main love triangle in DC is Mitsuhiko -> Ayumi <- Genta.  Ai was brought into the series specifically to shake this triangle up, resulting in the Mitsuhiko x Ai possibility

Oh, wow! You're right! Why didn't I see it before, this is-Hey wait. If this is the case, what exactly does Ayumi's crush on Conan do to this triangle?

I'm to the point where I dread any Conan-becomes-Shinichi-again-but-only-long-enough-to-make-Ran-get-all-weepy story.  . . .Desperate Revival arc. . .offered such promise and suspense. . .after all was said and done, nothing really changed for the two of them.  . . .every time Shinichi appears, it's the same old story repeated, just worse and worse each time.. . .the Shirigami case. . .devolved into that same, old story we've seen time and time again.

^This. This so much. Specifically the bolded parts.

As I mentioned before about questions being the building blocks of good stories, there's another thing that authors should, IMO, take into consideration: plotpaths and decisions they can make with those paths. There are millions of ways to deal with one problem, which is why there are trillions of different stories out there: every story has far more than one problem within it. So far Gosho has found very interesting plotpaths and interesting decisions in how he goes down them...his problem (at least to me) is he revisits these paths and uses another decision instead of the original one. This fills up space, it does, and to a point it's interesting. But if you've already made a decision on a certain plotpath, you should stick to it. It's because of this reason that when certain plotpaths show up (Ran suspicion, Shinichi appearing, ShinRan in general, even BO to an extent) it's become boring in my eyes.

I can understand that Gosho intended to make the series short at first and then it escalated to the point where he's at 700+ chapters going strong. I get that, I really do. What I don't get is why he decided to keep the ShinRan thing exactly the same. I mean, I understand it's supposed to be the 'pure love' or whatever, but that kind of thing really isn't a good romance to have in a long-runner. It's like...imagine Cinderella/Snow White/any princess story you've ever heard, and instead of it taking, say, an hour for your parent to tell it to you as a child, you're still listening to the tale as a teenager having a chapter read each night. And before you get any ideas, the prince is exactly the same, the princess stays the same, the main plot of going to the ball/waking the princess stays the same... I don't know about anyone else, but I would NOT read that. What would it be about? Different chores Cinderella/Snow White does? The prince's escapades? Okay, that may be entertaining for a bit, but for years? No thank you.

My love for DC is great, it really is. However, at this point I mostly read for the mysteries and to find out just what the heck the BO are up to. That's about it. I used to actually like ShinRan a lot and then later AiCon, but right now it's just utterly boring (ShinRan for obviousness and AiCon as it's 'non-existent'). IMHO Gosho should've set things up a little differently. He could've kept the ShinRan 'pure love' even, he just had to make better decisions on how to do it. If it were me, I would've used one plotpath with one strong decision, did some filler cases, and then moved on to a different plotpath...and 100 chapters later and forevermore never visit those exact plots again. Don't get me wrong here: there are subtle differences that separate the plots enough to be different, but there are only so many 'Ran does something embarrassing with Conan, oh my!' plots I can take.

Take the Desperate Rival for example. The first time I saw it, I loved it completely: even the lack of ShinRan development. I think the reason was this was actually the first major return of Shinichi and he and Ran at least had a date. I didn't even mind the whole 'wait for me' thing. That was sweet at the time. Now...Ran may wait, but I won't. See...Gosho used the 'wait for me' plot in Revival...but then he used it again...and again...and again...to the point where because of the repeats, I now despise that part of Revival: a part I once liked. Repetitiveness is hard to avoid in a long-runner, I know, but with all the characters he has, Gosho could keep interest by moving those characters along at different rates. It'd be hard to keep track of, but at least there'd be some variation.

I could go on, but I've already said too much for today xD'

[Wakarimashita]

I agree with both of you. That's also why I'm among those who don't want to see Shinichi appear too often (if not at all), not only because it goes against the "you'll be in danger" plot, but also because the romantic dimension of the stories in which he's involved has been decreasing in quality ever since the DR arc. It can't be helped seeing as Gosho is reusing the same devices, but I'd rather him not reappearing again (unless it involves the BO since that hasn't been really used yet) as we already know exactly how it will end, leading, in the end, to more frustration than satisfaction