Possible Sad Ending

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A.E.
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby A.E. » March 28th, 2011, 5:43 am

What's the fuss about having a sad/happy ending? Are there really that many people who get the antsy from "happy endings"?
I would say that the mere thinking that happy ending is not suitable any longer, is clichéd by itself (excuse me for being too immature to favour happy endings!)
Are we that much averse to a cloyingly sentimental ending? Well I suppose it's simply that we have reached a stage of mental and emotional development where we can no longer condone to such "puerile" ideas!!!!
For those of you who are too creative for happy-ending ideas (and being obviously outside-the-box thinkers), I could only imagine the kind of hypocrites I'm referring to....
How would you have liked Ai being killed by Gin or Pisco in episode 178?
Was it too ungratifying when Conan saved Ai from exploding to pieces, in the time bombed bus in episode 231?
Should have Conan been caught by Gin, episode 311?
Was all suspense, in episode 345, cleverly and meticulously built, just to see Ran and Ai sniped dead by Calvados?
Should we resent Conan for solving the indefinite number of cases? Just the sheer fact of a case being closed, is a happy ending, isn't it?

On the other hand, I would completely agree with the idea of the Detective Boys having their fair share of "sad ending".
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby occasionee » March 28th, 2011, 7:30 am

AbEgho wrote:What's the fuss about having a sad/happy ending? Are there really that many people who get the antsy from "happy endings"?
I would say that the mere thinking that happy ending is not suitable any longer, is clichéd by itself (excuse me for being too immature to favour happy endings!)
Are we that much averse to a cloyingly sentimental ending? Well I suppose it's simply that we have reached a stage of mental and emotional development where we can no longer condone to such "puerile" ideas!!!!
For those of you who are too creative for happy-ending ideas (and being obviously outside-the-box thinkers), I could only imagine the kind of hypocrites I'm referring to....
How would you have liked Ai being killed by Gin or Pisco in episode 178?
Was it too ungratifying when Conan saved Ai from exploding to pieces, in the time bombed bus in episode 231?
Should have Conan been caught by Gin, episode 311?
Was all suspense, in episode 345, cleverly and meticulously built, just to see Ran and Ai sniped dead by Calvados?
Should we resent Conan for solving the indefinite number of cases? Just the sheer fact of a case being closed, is a happy ending, isn't it?

On the other hand, I would completely agree with the idea of the Detective Boys having their fair share of "sad ending".


My. Thoughts. Exactly.

I'm 20, been a Conan fan since 2003, and I still want a happy ending. I don't favour happy endings or sad endings per se, but I do believe certain types of endings fit certain types of series/movies/books etc. For me, a sad ending for this particular series would feel odd and completely out of place. I mean, Gosho himself has classified DC as a mixture of detective fiction and romantic comedy. And how do romantic comedies usually end, as far as the leading couple is concerned at the very least? Happily. I don't deny the possibility of someone dying in the end, but if it should be Ran or Conan or even Kogoro, that would feel like a sudden change of genre. So no, even a bittersweet ending just wouldn't feel right, given the humorous and optimistic undertone that DC has always had. That type of ending was perfect for say, Final Fantasy X (and please don't bring X-2 into this, any fellow FF fans), but for DC - just no.

Of course, this is just my opinion...
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There will always be more than just one opinion, and if it differs from yours, enjoy it. It shows you that you have a mind of your own.

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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby awriterofthings » March 29th, 2011, 2:44 am

Rather unlikely, I'd have to say. That ending you suggested is completely lacking the flavor of the rest of the 600 some episodes in the series. Also it wouldn't be completing Conan's character arc, having someone else taking out the villain that we all have been waiting for him to face since the first episode he was knocked out.

Gin inevitably caused this journey that Shinichi went on. The only possible satisfying conclusion that could complete the character arc would be for Shinichi to confront and take him down, if not also the whole organization. You do address Shinichi's hubris. But I think that was what got him into the situation in the first place, and not necessarily something he still needed to learn. He's been put into his place by being a child for the past ten years (i guess a frozen year or so in anime world time). I think that him losing Ran is very unlikely. You'd be more likely to see Haibara sacrificing herself on Conan's behalf in order to complete her character redemption plot. And even then, Conan has prevented her from succeeding in that arc- not once but twice.

It's an interesting theory for sure. But if there was going to be a sad ending (doubtful as it is, I think Naruto is more likely to end sad) I'm more leaning towards a Sherlockian allusion. Where it is Conan who dies. And even then, I'm speaking very tongue in cheek here, I find it very doubtful that this series will have anything but a happy fluffy ending.

If it's a tragedy, it will need a catharsis. Ran's death would seem cheap and frustrating. Especially when blocking a lover's bullet. Only Conan's sacrifice to end the organization, that should have taken his life in the first episode, would seem justified. It would seem bittersweet and ironic. That the silver bullet is extinguished with its victims. 

I have a vague notion that there will be a life or death showdown between Shinichi's Moriarty, Gin. And in much like the scenerio of The Final Problem, Conan will probably be thought dead. Perhaps he even thinks to sacrifice himself for Ran's sake. Or maybe just for the safety of the detective boys. Who knows. In the end, Conan will come back alive. Hopefully restored as Shinichi.

Despite the allusion already being made in one of the movies, I'm still of the opinion that Gin is Conan's Moriarty and he's either going to kill himself trying to take Gin down- or at least nearly so. Heck, maybe Ran is the only reason Conan survives. Maybe she saves his life, because she happens to be present this time.

It's a simple ending. But it's one I would be satisfied with. And often times authors/writers get carried away. Thinking that the more complicated the conclusion the better the story. But I find, as a reader and a writer, that the stories that make sense, that flow and arc and stay true to themselves, don't have to be complicated. Simple is far more powerful.

This would be the final climax. There would be many things leading up to this final confrontation. But I think the ending will be far more simple than people will expect. That is if Gosho Aoyama plays his cards right. I expect mirrors from the first episode for sure. Broken shoe laces, probably the same theme park local.

And if Gin isn't Moriarty. Then there's an even scarier bad guy lurking in the background that we haven't even been made aware of yet.

Can you imagine? Someone smarter and more bloodthirsty than Gin?

Anyway, we won't know until Aoyama gets there. Here's hoping it's in the foreseeable future. I don't know if I wanna wait another ten years.
Last edited by awriterofthings on March 29th, 2011, 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby awriterofthings » March 29th, 2011, 3:32 am

ranger wrote:sweet stuff, but in seriousness I really do hope for a sad ending, Gosho needs to pull a Toy Story 3 - he needs to realize that his oldest fans, who have been following the series since the 90's, aren't kids anymores and he should really cater to the generation that first picked up the series

I'd say most of the hardcore fanbase is at least 16+ and they really don't want to see some cheesy childish ending..this however is just my opinion so maybe some of you guys do really want to see a corny typical happy ending.

And yes, I know DC is generally a series for children/family in Japan, but come on Gosho, just pull a Toy Story 3.


See... I don't understand this. Toy Story 3 didn't end sad. I am actually of the opinion that it ended quite happily. They didn't all burn in a incinerator. Sure they were separated from Andy but to me, that seemed inevitable.

I also do not see happy endings as immature. I think, when handled poorly, they can seem cheap and ill-conceived. But so can sad endings. I tell you what, I've seen some really badly done "sad endings" that make you want to just wring the author's neck. Not because it made you sad, but because the ending was pointless and done for "realism" sake when it's fiction. Mockingjay comes to mind... God, that book was concluded so poorly. Very disappointing.

I'm all for sad endings when they have catharsis. Ender's Game... I'd consider that a moderately somber ending. Of Mice and Men, that's a tragedy that I adore. Because you really got a sense in both those stories that the sacrifice was worth it. That it meant something. And that things came around full circle. Sherlock Holmes too, in the fight against his arch nemesis, had a satisfying ending. Though I must say I'm glad Sir Arthur Conan Doyle didn't leave it at that as I am of the fierce opinion that you do not kill characters off stage and then expect your readers to believe them really dead.

Happy endings are not immature. And sad endings are not in themselves, mature. That is misconception. Things just need to conclude in a way that "fits" be that happy or sad. And I am of the opinion, in fitting with the feel and style of the rest of the series, that this needs to end happy. Or at least moderately so.

Perhaps Conan remains Conan. Or maybe he's still searching for a cure at the end. But I do not think that any main character need die in order to make the story end in a satisfactory way.

There is a quote that comes to mind. From a movie called Stranger Than Fiction. Said by a conflicted fictional character called Karen Eiffel, an author of tragedies who's world is shattered when a character from her book comes to her and begs for her to spare his life. I had friends who criticized this movie, saying that Harold Crick needed to die at the end in order to satisfy the plot. But it is for this line, that I think that such an ending would have been far less powerful. Karen Eiffel confesses this, shortly after Harold is discovered to have survived...

"Because it's a book about a man who doesn't know he's about to die. And then dies. But if a man does know he's about to die and dies anyway. Dies- dies willingly, knowing that he could stop it, then- I mean, isn't that the type of man who you want to keep alive?"

It all hinges back on what this series is? Is Detective Conan a story about a young detective, blinded by his hubris, inadvertently brings death and suffering to his loved ones? Or is it a story about a young detective, having already been punished for his hubris, struggling to right the wrongs that were dealt him and defeat those who had previously defeated him? Or is it something else entirely?

BTW... wanna get sick of sad endings real fast? Take a creative writer's workshop. 90% of the stories people write, end with the character dying in some horrific way. It got old real fast. That's probably why I took to writing very happy stories... to contrast with all the gloom and doom.
Last edited by awriterofthings on March 29th, 2011, 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby kkslider5552000 » March 29th, 2011, 3:44 am

No, I doubt Ranger's dumb enough to say any happy ending wouldn't work, I think she just means it shouldn't be painfully and consistently happy to the point where it becomes silly. Considering how Gosho's essentially done this with the relationship plots, I can't blame her for thinking that.
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby A.E. » March 29th, 2011, 3:54 am

I would say Gosho would only appear as inauthentic if he tries to end it sadly.
He could even surprise his readers if he would end it in some philosophical, brain-teasing way, e.g., all these event that are taking place in the plot are nothing but incidents in a novel Shiniji's Dad is writing! Which would still be acceptable, and obviously better than a sappy sad ending...
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby awriterofthings » March 29th, 2011, 4:07 am

AbEgho wrote:I would say Gosho would only appear as inauthentic if he tries to end it sadly.
He could even surprise his readers if he would end it in some philosophical, brain-teasing way, e.g., all these event that are taking place in the plot are nothing but incidents in a novel Shiniji's Dad is writing! Which would still be acceptable, and obviously better than a sappy sad ending...


Oh god no. Not the "it was all just a dream" ploy. You have no idea how much that would piss me off.

Only one book in the history of books managed to pull that off successfully. And ever since people keep trying. Alice in Wonderland was that one book. No one else should be attempting to copy it. It takes away the immediacy and point of the story. You alienate the reader by pulling a trick ending like that. That would be worse than the whole Ran taking a bullet for Shinichi. Because at least in that version, the rest of Shinichi's struggles weren't imaginary.

The instant that someone ends a story that way it cheapens everything that happened before it. Like nothing really mattered and that we were just being strung along for ten years for shits and giggles. Not cool man. Not cool.

kkslider5552000 wrote:Considering how Gosho's essentially done this with the relationship plots, I can't blame her for thinking that.


Meh, I don't watch Conan for the relationships really. I really do watch it for the murder mysteries. The romance is just like a cherry on top to me. I figure it's all going to work out. I don't need drama llamas in Conan for me to enjoy the story more. In fact, I really rather wish Aoyama just to get on with some of them.

Him adding this new "rival" only just annoyed me really. It's a distraction, that's all. A blind. I'd much rather get back to the actual hunt for the Black Org rather than deal with all these side rivals popping up out of the woodwork.

However if this new chick is actually Bourbon, I will fully forgive Aoyama. :) Because that could prove to be very sticky for Conan. Especially with how smart she seems to be.

Shuusgirl wrote:In the words of some very good authors here in the US, the ending should be "surprising, but inevitable".


That's a good quote too. Excellent point.
Last edited by awriterofthings on March 29th, 2011, 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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A.E.
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby A.E. » March 29th, 2011, 4:22 am

awriterofthings wrote:
AbEgho wrote:I would say Gosho would only appear as inauthentic if he tries to end it sadly.
He could even surprise his readers if he would end it in some philosophical, brain-teasing way, e.g., all these event that are taking place in the plot are nothing but incidents in a novel Shiniji's Dad is writing! Which would still be acceptable, and obviously better than a sappy sad ending...


Oh god no. Not the "it was all just a dream" ploy. You have no idea how much that would piss me off.

Only one book in the history of books managed to pull that off successfully. And ever since people keep trying. Alice in Wonderland was that one book. No one else should be attempting to copy it. It takes away the immediacy and point of the story. You alienate the reader by pulling a trick ending like that. That would be worse than the whole Ran taking a bullet for Shinichi. Because at least in that version, the rest of Shinichi's struggles weren't imaginary.

The instant that someone ends a story that way it cheapens everything that happened before it. Like nothing really mattered and that we were just being strung along for ten years for shits and giggles. Not cool man. Not cool.




lol, I could only imagine your reaction right now!
you realise I was not serious when I passively dropped that suggestion; I did it just to see how people would react (you being the first).

And regarding Lewis Carroll, I would not, myself, say fully successfully; it was, to an extent, rather anticlimactic. I still remember when we were discussing the ending in class, arghhh....
Last edited by Anonymous on March 29th, 2011, 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby kkslider5552000 » March 29th, 2011, 5:40 pm

awriterofthings wrote:Him adding this new "rival" only just annoyed me really.


Not everyone reads the manga you horrible person. :)
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby awriterofthings » March 29th, 2011, 8:13 pm

kkslider5552000 wrote:
awriterofthings wrote:Him adding this new "rival" only just annoyed me really.


Not everyone reads the manga you horrible person. :)


Oh! I apologize. I wasn't thinking. I should have spoiler hidden that.

AbEgho wrote:And regarding Lewis Carroll, I would not, myself, say fully successfully; it was, to an extent, rather anticlimactic. I still remember when we were discussing the ending in class, arghhh....


Well, I meant in terms that Carroll was the only one that pulled it off and didn't get "slammed" for it. Or at least not much.
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby Akonyl » March 29th, 2011, 10:53 pm

Mead wrote:Sad- If you are a ShinRan then yes, If you are an AiCon then it is probably the happiest ending you can have.

I'm not sure AiCons would really appreciate the "Conan married Ai, but really just because Ran was dead" ending that this seems to imply. :P
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby shihokudo » March 29th, 2011, 10:57 pm

that ending isn't that sad..
i wouldn't mind that ending

maybe its just cos i'm AiCon
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby ranger » March 30th, 2011, 12:52 pm

Akonyl wrote:
Mead wrote:Sad- If you are a ShinRan then yes, If you are an AiCon then it is probably the happiest ending you can have.

I'm not sure AiCons would really appreciate the "Conan married Ai, but really just because Ran was dead" ending that this seems to imply. :P


speak for yourself Akonyl, gotta make lemonade w/ lemons
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby awriterofthings » March 31st, 2011, 1:23 am

Iunno. I am of the opinion that Shinichi "settling" for Haibara isn't exactly a happy outcome. In fact, if I were Haibara I think that would be constantly on my mind. How I was only second in his heart. How when he was vulnerable and weak he finally decided to notice me. And think about it... Shinichi would always be pining after the girl he lost. How much love could he really give Haibara? It would be half hearted- and certainly not what she would hope for. That's a deeply unsettling thought to me. Not to mention how unhealthy that relationship would be for both sides.

I think it would be happier if they only met as friends later down the road. Shinichi being a true Sherlock Holmes character, single and loner. And Haibara happily living a second life she never had a chance to have the first time around. It would be a somber reunion in a way. But them settling for one another, to me is far more depressing.

Though I admit that I am for Shinichi x Ran simply because the feeling is mutual on both sides. I never disliked the Haibara x Conan romance.

I'm just of the opinion that if Shinichi ever did pick Haibara it should be because he picked her. Not because he "settled" for her. Haibara deserves better than that.
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Re: Possible Sad Ending

Postby Shuusgirl » March 31st, 2011, 10:50 pm

awriterofthings wrote:Iunno. I am of the opinion that Shinichi "settling" for Haibara isn't exactly a happy outcome. In fact, if I were Haibara I think that would be constantly on my mind. How I was only second in his heart. How when he was vulnerable and weak he finally decided to notice me. And think about it... Shinichi would always be pining after the girl he lost. How much love could he really give Haibara? It would be half hearted- and certainly not what she would hope for. That's a deeply unsettling thought to me. Not to mention how unhealthy that relationship would be for both sides.

I think it would be happier if they only met as friends later down the road. Shinichi being a true Sherlock Holmes character, single and loner. And Haibara happily living a second life she never had a chance to have the first time around. It would be a somber reunion in a way. But them settling for one another, to me is far more depressing.

Though I admit that I am for Shinichi x Ran simply because the feeling is mutual on both sides. I never disliked the Haibara x Conan romance.

I'm just of the opinion that if Shinichi ever did pick Haibara it should be because he picked her. Not because he "settled" for her. Haibara deserves better than that.

I agree.  Well, except that Conan and Ai should be together.  ;)
I think Shinichi living some half-life would be far more depressing.  But why would Gosho make the ending sad?  Like, this whole time it's been just fine, not really sad at all.  I think it wouldn't just feel out of place if all the sudden it was a tragedy, I think it would be totally fake.  I don't think he'd do that to use.
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