Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 9th, 2019, 11:11 pm

Npaz wrote:
Spoiler:
Wakita: And I'm the number two apprentice, Wakita Kanenori!


Spoiler:
Ah...

I totally missed that.

Could be coincidence... but taken with everything else, it's yet another sign that he might be our guy.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby Nemomon » March 10th, 2019, 8:33 am

Spoiler:
The more I'm reading Wakita's remarks, the more I'm interesting in why exactly Wakita says them. It's obvious that Kogoro has no clue what's going on, and if he's Rum he knows who Bourbon is and therefore he should avoid using any words that would reveal who he is. I wonder how Bourbon will react at "time is money" words. And Conan, Rum probably doesn't even know if Conan ever heard of him, let another his catchphrases.

On the other hand, if Wakita is not Rum, then saying weird words won't help him, because Rum surely won't act alone upon hearing them, but rather he will send unnamed people to abduct Wakita. Not to mention that searching for Rum in Kogoro's neighbourhood means that Wakita is uber desperate now.

The only more or less reasonable explanation I can see is that Wakita is Tsutomu and he knows that Amuro is Bourbon (from his times in the BO), but he doesn't know that Amuro is also from the police. He probably thought that Amuro wouldn't waste his time sitting near Kogoro for no reason, so he (Wakita) must be around Kogoro as well in the case something will happen.

But it's interesting that Wakita noticed how Bourbon and Conan are close friends.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby dccd » March 10th, 2019, 11:24 am

Spoiler:
His remarks may have no in-universe-meaning (however u may define in-universe)
but simply are there to give the reader a hint about Wakitas identity.

The traitor-comment might simply mean "Im looking for traitors" = (to the readers: This guy is Rum).

Wakita seeing Amuro and Conan getting along together only lines up perfectly
in whats about to come at the end of this arc:

Conans reveal as Shinichi
Amuros reveal as traitor.
[ ] Yonehara = Rum
[ ] Kuroda = Amuros Boss
[x] MG = Mrs. Akai
[x] Haneda = Brother Akai
[ ] Rumi = Asaka
[ ] Wakita = Bo-Member Whiskey (aka the RAT)
[ ] Iori = just a butler
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby dalekkaan » March 10th, 2019, 11:40 am

Spoiler:
Amuro was protecting Conan from Wakita. I think Wakita is Rum and Amuro knows it
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby blackmoon » March 10th, 2019, 6:09 pm

yeah just wonder why Kuroda suddenly wants to speak to Koumei through the phone and from whom did Koumei hear that saying of "time is money"? :|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNdjEOl2X8I
"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 11th, 2019, 4:16 am

Nemomon wrote:
Spoiler:
The more I'm reading Wakita's remarks, the more I'm interesting in why exactly Wakita says them. It's obvious that Kogoro has no clue what's going on, and if he's Rum he knows who Bourbon is and therefore he should avoid using any words that would reveal who he is. I wonder how Bourbon will react at "time is money" words. And Conan, Rum probably doesn't even know if Conan ever heard of him, let another his catchphrases.

On the other hand, if Wakita is not Rum, then saying weird words won't help him, because Rum surely won't act alone upon hearing them, but rather he will send unnamed people to abduct Wakita. Not to mention that searching for Rum in Kogoro's neighbourhood means that Wakita is uber desperate now.

The only more or less reasonable explanation I can see is that Wakita is Tsutomu and he knows that Amuro is Bourbon (from his times in the BO), but he doesn't know that Amuro is also from the police. He probably thought that Amuro wouldn't waste his time sitting near Kogoro for no reason, so he (Wakita) must be around Kogoro as well in the case something will happen.

But it's interesting that Wakita noticed how Bourbon and Conan are close friends.


dccd wrote:
Spoiler:
His remarks may have no in-universe-meaning (however u may define in-universe)
but simply are there to give the reader a hint about Wakitas identity.

The traitor-comment might simply mean "Im looking for traitors" = (to the readers: This guy is Rum).


Spoiler:
Both Rumi and Hyōe just know too much—if there are only three suspects, then it must be Kanenori... but these lines that pop up in cases with him are so on the nose (to say nothing of his name being an anagram for Rum's catchphrase), it screams red herring. But if Kanenori isn't Rum, that means (again, assuming there are only three suspects) Rumi or Hyōe must be Rum... the former has such close proximity to Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai, even testing Shinichi's/Conan's deductive capabilities... the latter knows Bourbon is an NPA Security Bureau NOC, knows about Shinichi's/Conan's deductive capabilities, and knows that the two of them are hatching a plan with Yusaku and Yukiko. If Rum is aware of Shinichi/Conan and is actually counting on him to plan against him and the BO, then I'd say Hyōe or Rumi is more likely to be Rum... otherwise, Kanenori really does seem to be Rum (Shiho/Ai just happening to be away when he went to Agasa's house, and his behavior seeming to line up best with Rum's impatient nature).


dccd wrote:
Spoiler:
Wakita seeing Amuro and Conan getting along together only lines up perfectly
in whats about to come at the end of this arc:

Conans reveal as Shinichi
Amuros reveal as traitor.


dalekkaan wrote:
Spoiler:
Amuro was protecting Conan from Wakita. I think Wakita is Rum and Amuro knows it


Spoiler:
Contrast this with Hyōe—both are aware of Shinichi's/Conan's capabilities and even give him a hand, at times.

I'd be for such a status quo shake-up happening... but I won't believe it until I see it—many thought Conan's true identity was going to get revealed to the BO at the end of the last arc... it didn't pan out that way. So we'll have to wait and see if Gosho actually intends to go through with it, this time.


blackmoon wrote:yeah just wonder why Kuroda suddenly wants to speak to Koumei through the phone and from whom did Koumei hear that saying of "time is money"? :|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNdjEOl2X8I


Spoiler:
I suppose it could be derived that Hyōe told Kōmei the phrase... but Kōmei is all about phrases and expressions.

It's likely a hint to us that Kōmei was told by Hyōe something that's going to eventually get him to team up with Shinichi/Conan and Rei/Tōru.

We weren't shown the conversation between Hyōe and Kōmei—likely because it would make it unambiguous that Hyōe isn't Rum, but, rather Rei's/Tōru's boss at the NPA, and Gosho's not ready to reveal that, just yet (but, again, Hyōe's most likely to be Rum if Rum is aware of Shinichi/Conan and is allowing him to plan against the BO, but only so he can fall into a trap set up by Rum that's intended to eliminate him and his allies in one fell swoop—I don't think this is the case, right now, but we'll have to see).
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby sherry26 » March 11th, 2019, 8:46 am

Nemomon wrote:
Spoiler:
The more I'm reading Wakita's remarks, the more I'm interesting in why exactly Wakita says them. It's obvious that Kogoro has no clue what's going on, and if he's Rum he knows who Bourbon is and therefore he should avoid using any words that would reveal who he is. I wonder how Bourbon will react at "time is money" words. And Conan, Rum probably doesn't even know if Conan ever heard of him, let another his catchphrases.

On the other hand, if Wakita is not Rum, then saying weird words won't help him, because Rum surely won't act alone upon hearing them, but rather he will send unnamed people to abduct Wakita. Not to mention that searching for Rum in Kogoro's neighbourhood means that Wakita is uber desperate now.

The only more or less reasonable explanation I can see is that Wakita is Tsutomu and he knows that Amuro is Bourbon (from his times in the BO), but he doesn't know that Amuro is also from the police. He probably thought that Amuro wouldn't waste his time sitting near Kogoro for no reason, so he (Wakita) must be around Kogoro as well in the case something will happen.

But it's interesting that Wakita noticed how Bourbon and Conan are close friends.


Spoiler:
The more I try to analyze Kanenori's actions the more I get Tsutomu Akai vibes. Kanenori being Rum would be sooo obvious at this point. There are many points in Kanenori's behaviour which suggest he is an ally.
Spoiler:
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 11th, 2019, 12:16 pm

sherry26 wrote:
Spoiler:
The more I try to analyze Kanenori's actions the more I get Tsutomu Akai vibes. Kanenori being Rum would be sooo obvious at this point. There are many points in Kanenori's behaviour which suggest he is an ally.


Spoiler:
I'd certainly be surprised if Rumi or Hyōe turns out to be Rum—I'd be for it, but would wonder how Gosho would explain Rum's inaction—so which one do you think Rum is, then? The one who has Shiho/Ai at arm's length, or the one who has Rei/Tōru/Bourbon at arm's length?
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
Zerozaki4869
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby Zerozaki4869 » March 11th, 2019, 12:35 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
sherry26 wrote:
Spoiler:
The more I try to analyze Kanenori's actions the more I get Tsutomu Akai vibes. Kanenori being Rum would be sooo obvious at this point. There are many points in Kanenori's behaviour which suggest he is an ally.


Spoiler:
I'd certainly be surprised if Rumi or Hyōe turns out to be Rum—I'd be for it, but would wonder how Gosho would explain Rum's inaction—so which one do you think Rum is, then? The one who has Shiho/Ai at arm's length, or the one who has Rei/Tōru/Bourbon at arm's length?


Spoiler:
There is a much better way to look at this arc.
Just because Rum arc comes after Bourbon arc doesn't mean it will emulate the former.
Things we know about Rum
a) Rum is so anxious about Kohji case issues that Rum sends Vermouth+Bourbon to investigate Asaca song.
b) Rum was too reluctant in Hotta's case. BO knows it given Gin/Vodka's statements.
c) Despite being such a worry wot Rum gives a flying damn to "Wakasa Rumi."
d) Rum wanted info on Kudo Shinichi and messaged Bourbon.
e) Rum is pestering Bourbon by sending him one message after another.
f) Time is money.

Now we can safely eliminate Hoye as he is the junk suspect.(given proximity to Amuro, Morofushi, Scotch's real name.)
Out of Rumi and Kanenori, Rumi seems too close to Conan, while Kanenori is zeroing on Kogoro.
Now if Rum really wanted to investigate Kogoro then Kogoro's force-fit apprentice is not the most logical route.
Kid killer aka Kogoro's proverbial nephew's teacher sounds a much better idea to get to Kogoro.
Think, if Conan is really a very smart kid, then it would have been very easy to deduce that involving Conan would get Mouri Kogoro's attention.
Now Wakasa Rumi's name is the biggest over the counter reference to "Asaca Rum" yet she gets to roam free, without being stalked by BO/Rum.
Now Kanenori is doing the exactly opposite thing
a) He is bending his knees to mask his true height.
b) He has a name which is a reference to time is money and is easily noticeable for native Japanese speakers, his reluctance to let go of his eyepatch despite becoming incessantly suspicious for that but he is not hungry for the spotlight.(Scratched and thus worsened the pimple.)
c) Making traitor remarks in front of a suspected traitor if he is Rum.
d) Komei has no qualms to see him despite having a chat with Kuroda prior to it.(This means Kuroda/Amuro deems him harmless in that regard.) e) Gin and Mary using the same quote is sort of a hint about Tsutomu's infiltration.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 11th, 2019, 3:07 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
Spoiler:
Things we know about Rum
c) Despite being such a worry wot Rum gives a flying damn to "Wakasa Rumi."

Now we can safely eliminate Hoye as he is the junk suspect.(given proximity to Amuro, Morofushi, Scotch's real name.)
Out of Rumi and Kanenori, Rumi seems too close to Conan, while Kanenori is zeroing on Kogoro.

Now Wakasa Rumi's name is the biggest over the counter reference to "Asaca Rum" yet she gets to roam free, without being stalked by BO/Rum.
Now Kanenori is doing the exactly opposite thing
a) He is bending his knees to mask his true height.
b) He has a name which is a reference to time is money and is easily noticeable for native Japanese speakers, his reluctance to let go of his eyepatch despite becoming incessantly suspicious for that but he is not hungry for the spotlight.(Scratched and thus worsened the pimple.)
c) Making traitor remarks in front of a suspected traitor if he is Rum.
d) Komei has no qualms to see him despite having a chat with Kuroda prior to it.(This means Kuroda/Amuro deems him harmless in that regard.) e) Gin and Mary using the same quote is sort of a hint about Tsutomu's infiltration.


Spoiler:
So Rumi is Rum, then? Again, I'd be for that—I'd just wonder why she hasn't tried to do away with Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai by now.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby Zerozaki4869 » March 12th, 2019, 3:31 am

Spoiler:
In the eyes of BO, Sherry is dead with a "D". So any uncanny resemblance won't have the same deadly consequence.
Conan himself told Agasa during a very early case that BO can't suspect him if they don't know much of the shrinking.
They at max will think that Conan is a very intelligent kid.
Given Vermouth is working for Conan in that regard, I don't see any issue.

Bourbon arc had created a belief that antagonist can't be near Sherry/Conan, which is a bad meta argument at max.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby AgOkami » March 12th, 2019, 12:59 pm

I need some memory refresher. Are we absolutely sure the BO couldn't have gotten someone else to work on the poison after they lost Sherry? If they did, then they may have figured about the shrinking without us knowing they have. Although I suppose if they had figured it out, we'd get some really omnious frames about it at the last page of a chapter.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 12th, 2019, 3:31 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
Spoiler:
In the eyes of BO, Sherry is dead with a "D". So any uncanny resemblance won't have the same deadly consequence.
Conan himself told Agasa during a very early case that BO can't suspect him if they don't know much of the shrinking.
They at max will think that Conan is a very intelligent kid.
Given Vermouth is working for Conan in that regard, I don't see any issue.

Bourbon arc had created a belief that antagonist can't be near Sherry/Conan, which is a bad meta argument at max.


Spoiler:
I think that predates the Bourbon arc.

The assumption of it would be that, given time with/exposure to Shinichi/Conan and Shiho/Ai, and prior knowledge (APTX; Sherry; Shinichi Kudo), a BO member could figure out what really happened to the two people they thought had been erased. In this case, it's Rum, the 2nd-in-command, who's the one up close to them—you'd think Rum, especially, would be able to figure out that Conan and Ai are Shinichi and Shiho, if he/she was as close as Rumi is to them. If Eisuke (who didn't know about APTX—and neither did Heiji, for that matter) can figure it out, I think Rum can figure it out.


AgOkami wrote:I need some memory refresher. Are we absolutely sure the BO couldn't have gotten someone else to work on the poison after they lost Sherry? If they did, then they may have figured about the shrinking without us knowing they have. Although I suppose if they had figured it out, we'd get some really omnious frames about it at the last page of a chapter.


It's never been addressed—as far as I can recall, we haven't seen any BO labs since Shiho/Ai made her debut, or internal discussions between BO members about, say, "progress on the incomplete detective." Any discussion on it has been related to past events (Koji Haneda/Miyano family/Mary).
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby Zerozaki4869 » March 13th, 2019, 9:50 am

It doesn't predate Bourbon arc at all.

The examples that you've furnished are somehow lapses of Conan, not someone using deductive reasoning to find Conan's identity.

On my counter I can suggest you the Vermouth arc, where the villain was right before Conan and Sherry.

So this bad guy is distant is a plot armour which was unknown to us before Bourbon arc.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,027-1031

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » March 13th, 2019, 3:17 pm

Zerozaki4869 wrote:It doesn't predate Bourbon arc at all.

The examples that you've furnished are somehow lapses of Conan, not someone using deductive reasoning to find Conan's identity.

On my counter I can suggest you the Vermouth arc, where the villain was right before Conan and Sherry.

So this bad guy is distant is a plot armour which was unknown to us before Bourbon arc.


Of course he slipped up—in this case, his screw-ups and the deductions of others go hand in hand. In other words, they're not mutually exclusive. In the case of Rumi, he's already erred by showing her his tranquilizer watch, of all gadgets.

And when did that villain make their move? Only when she actually made contact with Shiho/Ai—nearly 200 Files into the arc. See, the key is not just that Rumi has such sustained proximity to one of them—with Vermouth being close to Shinichi/Conan, as Dr. Araide, for basically the entire Vermouth arc—it's that she's had sustained proximity to both. She didn't find Sherry until the end of the arc, like Vermouth—she found her immediately.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)

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