Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Post any Detective Conan news, events, questions, and the like about the anime, manga, movies, or OVAs that don't belong elsewhere here.
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Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby kkslider5552000 » December 30th, 2018, 2:47 pm

One of the most interesting things about Detective Conan, especially in contrast to most anime, is how it is essentially a half way point between a status quo, purely episodic series, and a plot driven one. Well, half way is probably an exaggeration, it’s more like 1/8 of the way towards being plot driven. But the point is, most anime and possibly even shows are either purely episodic with minimal to no long term continuity (barring maybe a single event to go to a new status quo with), or are consistently focused on building towards some ongoing storyline/s. But Detective Conan has always been kind of between those two. There have been changes in the status quo, but not ones to entirely disrupt the one started in the early couple of episodes/chapters of the series. There has been plot and character development, but the type that rarely moves quickly or is the focus of an episode/chapter. It is best to describe it as a status quo murder mystery series, that has tiny bits of plot slowly moving as a bonus to the status quo murder mystery series, that only becomes the focus at climactic points in the story. I once saw the speed of the plot development of the series compared to a glacier, which sounds about right.

Honestly, it’s a fantastic format for a long running series. You can simply enjoy it as a murder mystery series, have a bunch of cases with various characters and new suspects each time, and it’s enjoyable in that way. Anything else is just a really nice bonus, something to reward you for sticking with it and to show that Conan’s goal and other characters and things added to the series are going somewhere. They’re not just transparent attempts to keep the series going forever with no point or hope of some sort of conclusion. But because they drip feed the ongoing story, it means the series can go on for a long time without throwing too much plot at you that its confusing or risks becoming too repetitive or jumps the shark. And between that and the relationship subplots and bits of suspense and even action (mostly in the movies, granted), it has a bit of something for everyone while still being focused on being…what it is. A lot of series fail that as well, either being too much of one thing or trying to please everyone and ending up pleasing no one. It’s actually brilliant in that regard, like an all-time fantastic way to setup a series that goes on for this long.

But the series has just been going on for too long. At least that’s what it feels like, by this point. This is not some new revelation, of course. I think anyone really paying attention to Conan can put together that the series has relied a lot on ideas that have already been done, and often done better. I mean, obviously. It’s a series that’s been ongoing, by the same guy, for nearly 25 years. Even the best writers would find it hard to come up with fresh material at that point, without some drastic changes to what the series is.

Weirdly though, it isn’t Gosho’s cases I necessarily think suffer from this the most. Granted, he’s stretching to find new ways to kill people and it’s kinda silly and yet sometimes duller than it should be. And it’s impossible for me to believe that anyone could regularly watch or read this series and still care about these one off characters for these cases like they actually matter. There’s too many, and most of them are not memorable or distinct enough from anyone else in any other case. If you do, you’ll get invested in literally any character. But that’s arguably been a problem longer than anything else, and I think if everything else good about the series comes together, it surprisingly doesn’t matter too much that Gosho reuses X character in Y story. You can easily forgive that. But the problem comes when it doesn’t. Not just because it’s hard to create consistently compelling ways to kill someone, but because it’s sometimes hard to even care about some of the characters I actually care about.

As an aside, I wrote an essay a long time ago about the problems with Detective Conan, but it was with Ran specifically. I have to say, I think I might have to take it all back. I’m sorry, I didn’t fully think about what I was talking about, I think it might be controversial among some circles. Now of course, by that I mean, I have to take back when I implied I enjoyed Conan as a character more than Ran because of how their relationship was going (if for mostly unintentional reasons). Ran may be a boring character who’s supposed to just peacefully wait for her never returning boyfriend (with every attempt to not be that being less frequent or believable), but she doesn’t anger me. But after 10 years, I am so god damn sick of Edogawa Conan. This arrogant know-it-all, who can solve everything ever, knows everything ever, where nothing actually bad happens to him and consequences aren’t real. Like when people complain about Superman, this is basically the character I imagine they’re talking about. Always wins because they’re the best, arrogance with minimal to no repercussions, above us all, never changes. Like remember when Conan actually cared about what he might be doing to Ran by hiding in plain sight like he does? Yeah, guess that emotional core can be mostly ignored (except for a couple of AOs, of all things!). There’s just little to nothing likeable or enjoyable about him at all. Or what is there is hard to care about after all this time, at the very least. It’s really baffling compared to that one Shinichi story that took place in the past that characterized him as a kid so well, and is legit one of the best stories Gosho’s done this entire decade. So it’s like he can’t transfer that level of worthwhile, relatable characterization to Conan anymore, and it’s really a shame.

And there’s been a lot of issues with a lot more characters as well. It’s usually not as bad, but some of these romantic stories do need something to happen to them other than the police ones. It’s almost impressive how making it a love triangle that will almost certainly not change Heiji and Kazuha getting together at all is still more interesting than what they were doing the past few years (read: nothing). And Kid’s just been hurt by a lack of truly compelling stories, in particular. The hints of a real focus on Magic Kaito again and the bi…decade MK chapter releases are a neverending tease. The actual Kid cases have simply become less interesting and less varied, and Kid has almost vanished (moar liek teleported, hur hur) in recent years despite being a top tier popular character, which says a lot. But so have Satou and Takagi focused stories, which is a clear mistake. There can’t be a real person on Earth who wants another one of those terrible Chiba love story cases over more of Satou and Takagi. I refuse to believe it. I reject the very idea. There are dozens of one-off characters from ages ago with more interest I have to believe (I mean that is basically how we got Sera :V).

So by this point, you might think this is simply a problem of one person. You’re already entirely wrong. Gosho Aoyama is not as good writer as he was 15 years ago, that I’m sure of. But, I’m not necessarily sure anyone in his position could be. Despite already being a successful mangaka well before Detective Conan, he has consistently been writing Detective Conan since 1994. This is literally all but 4 years of my entire life. With all the pressures and demands of being a top mangaka with a weekly shonen schedule, for nearly 25 years, it was inevitable that the series would eventually struggle to keep up being at the same high quality. I’d be hard pressed to find one series running for even close to that long that didn’t have some decline in quality. I’m pretty sure post-beloved era Simpsons has lasted much longer than pre at this point. This is arguably even more true when you’ve seen so much of what a series has offered already, and thus can’t be surprised as easily without it being a surprise only because it’s a bad idea you shouldn’t see done in a good series. So, if anything, I have a weird amount of respect for Gosho even when the quality isn’t there like I want it to be. Because I’m consistently amazed I still enjoy the series as much as I do and that it took this long to decline (like Death Note was past its peak in the 2nd half, and that’s a 12 volume manga. 12 volumes in, Haibara wasn’t in Conan yet). I’ve also always assumed that the fact that it is a murder mystery series only adds to the time and effort needed. I could be wrong, but I feel like the time and effort needed to create a believable, compelling murder mystery on top of everything else is above the average action manga or the like.

But as I said, the manga isn’t even my biggest problem. I don’t even read it regularly, and outside of the early days when certain manga based cases were still unsubbed, basically never before the anime adapted them. I have been watching Detective Conan for over a decade now, but in that decade, I’ve never enjoyed the series in any year LESS than I have this year. Probably by a good margin. And that’s specifically because of the anime. The main reason why is abundantly clear. Gosho Aoyama has been unable to provide many chapters to be adapted to anime, so the vast majority of the series lately has been anime originals. And to the surprise of no one who pays attention to “filler episodes” in anime, they’ve not lived up to the mangaka’s stories.

I mean, I’m not really saying anything new here. Filler has been loathed by the anime community as long as I can remember, and Detective Conan is not much different. Probably not as hated because the gaps weren’t too long before a new manga based episode appeared and you had to get a ways into the series for there to feel like much plot development has even happened. But they were still not anything fans seem to really care about or look forward to in any way. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen fans consistently praise anime originals, barring the early episodes or discussions about specific good anime originals, and I’m pretty sure a lot of people just avoid them and/or dislike them.

If you bother to watch them all, at least for my tastes, it really drags down the series. Not because they’re bad, but because there’s not nearly enough worth caring about. It’s just a competent but boring slog to get through so many of them. Detective Conan is already focused on a neverending series of murder mysteries, all having to be completed in a 1-3 episode span. And 3 episodes is somewhat rare, so with 40 episodes a year, that’s a lot of stories in the long run. Most series don’t have that many new episodes that often, last I checked anyway. So similar to Gosho Aoyama, this is a lot of work for the series that never ends or even takes substantial breaks. Again, it must be very difficult to make it consistently good or interesting, no matter how talented or not the people making it are.

But a key difference is that the series is so restricted by being an adaptation of Detective Conan. The series is already more grounded and normal compared to a lot of anime out there. If it wasn’t for a few elements, like certain gadgets or rarely relevant plot elements, it could take place in our world! So a lot of creativity writers of like…a series focused on magical powers and creatures would be able to use, cannot be used. Obviously, that would be completely absurd! But then the series always has to be about some sort of case, usually a murder mystery. But then on top of that, it often seemingly has to follow certain cliches about Conan specifically. Cases with 3 suspects, or 1 suspect who is clearly the killer. Conan solving the case, and often by impersonating someone else’s voice. Also, certain traits about various characters, of course. But then you realize how little they either can or will do with the characters, because you can’t make any worthwhile change or development for them. A lot of the times, you can’t even do something particularly interesting or new with them apparently. And with literally one exception, you can’t make a story longer than two episodes, that’s only for the Gosho cases.

This is exactly why I made that thread two years ago. In 2016, which also didn’t have the most Gosho cases adapted, I really thought the anime team was putting together some good episodes. Nothing on the level of Gosho’s best work, but episodes I was genuinely glad to have watched. Episodes that were well made, had some worthwhile stories that either effectively used the characters we care about or introduced an actually interesting one-off character, for example. They didn’t feel like complete filler, they felt like good character focused stories to put in the series, even if they weren’t amazing. There were even a couple of episodes that actually did something interesting with the fact that Conan used to be a teenager and live a different life. It was really all I ask for. And even the AO cases that weren’t THAT good were still often better than the average quality of AOs we get. That might sound super praise worthy but after year after year of mediocrity, I felt it really made a difference.

Detective Conan in 2018 is kinda why I made that thread. No one cares except me, I realize. But after 2016 was over, AOs went right back to being a relatively boring waste of time. I really do think that’s a shame. Filler does not need to be bad. You can still write good stories just because it isn’t a story made in the source material. I mean, yeah, the AOs don’t matter, but neither do the actual cases Gosho wrote, by that logic. The stuff involving recurring characters sometimes matter, but most of the time, nothing about the cases themselves are ever relevant once they’re done. I mean, it became my favorite anime despite skipping a decent chunk of manga-based stories when I first got into it. And if you’re a long time fan of Conan, I’d like to believe you actually like the individual stories rather than the rarely advanced plotlines. So if an AO is good…it’s good. But right now, they’re not good or interesting enough for how much of the series they’ve been lately. I think maybe 3/4 of the anime this year has been AOs. That’s 30 episodes in just one year, so if a majority of them aren’t particularly entertaining, it’s hard to not see that as a huge disappointment.

I don’t think it used to be that way either. I distinctly remember pretty much all of the first year or so of filler episodes. Almost all of them are at least a bit interesting, some of them actually very entertaining. Kogoro was almost assassinated once IIRC. What a crazy story that was in hindsight…

But anyway, I’ve spent some time thinking of how to improve the anime and there are three main ideas that come to mind. The first one being to simply air less episodes. I mean, the simplest answer, if there’s less episodes there’s less filler and more time spent on the filler there is. Presumably it would also give the animators more time to work on these episodes as well. But I really, really doubt that will actually happen. None of these complaints matter to most of its fans in Japan since Conan is consistently one of the most popular series there. In fact, the one time I heard about ratings going down was because of them airing less episodes for about two years, so it would be counter productive to ratings. It’s clearly never happening.

The second idea would be to make the cases longer. The one time they put out a 3 part case a few years ago, it ended up being great. So it makes me wonder why they don’t do it more often. In theory at least, it makes sense as you would have more time to focus on a smaller amount of murder mysteries and thus could do a better job with them. Maybe you could even make a story arc with original characters, like a legit filler arc. I dunno, maybe they’ve just been unable to make something that works for longer than two episodes. But I would appreciate the effort.

But the last idea is maybe the most controversial one, and the main one I’ve really been wanting out of the series in a way. That is, they could make episodes that aren’t really about cases. I could be wrong on this, but I believe every single episode of Detective Conan has some focus on some sort of case. I almost want to say there’s a couple of plot episodes that actually have zero focus on typical cases, at most focusing on the mystery of the current plot arc. But otherwise, I think there’s always been some sort of case or episodic mystery. So I wonder if there might be some real value in once in a while doing something else.

And this ties into problems I have with the franchise as a whole. Yes, at the end of the day it is a murder mystery series. Murder mysteries are and should be the focus, that is without any doubt. But when it is truly unending like this and when it airs 40 episodes, at 20 minutes each (taking away the Opening and Ending), every year, and when so much of it feels like a pointless repeat of a better story you’ve seen in the same series, I think something else beyond cases would be for the best. I’m not asking for it to become absurd or contradict everything we know (though pulling something like OVA 1 could be amazing), but taking a slice of life sort of look at the characters or putting them in situations that are pretty different could do a lot for the series.

When they were still putting out the movie tie-in OVAs, the only ones I remember being great were the ones for Movies 14 and 15. And that’s because they were more light comedy episodes about some of the characters instead of relying much on mysteries or anything like that. We like the characters so just them doing…whatever they were doing was more than good enough. It was a real breath of fresh air out of the series. Same with OVA 2, where the mystery is inconsequential. But it had all these characters we like interacting, and that’s basically all you need. They’re good characters and that alone should be enough sometimes.

This also ties into the movies. I maintain that I truly believe Movie 20 was really good. At least for what it was. Because this series inevitably attracts murder mystery fans specifically, I have no doubt a sudden change to ridiculous action didn’t sit well with some fans. And for a lot of the later DC movies, I would actually agree to some extent. But there’s one huge difference that puts it above a lot of the others. Most of the Detective Conan movies still try to be Detective Conan movies. They still have to have some significant focus on some sort of case, usually a murder mystery, and than they just put action and explosions around it. It’s just not that great, that often. Also, it’s sometimes kinda forced and obligatory and we all know nothing that happens matters, because it’s not canon. Stop pretending Conan’s gonna die, no one believes you! James Bond will die before Conan does.

But Movie 20 was earnestly a type of action suspense movie with Detective Conan characters, rather than a Detective Conan movie with action. It also made it clear early on how ridiculous it was going to get, so it set up expectations perfectly for what the movie was doing. These two things made all the difference for me, because it was what I was looking for. It was still the Detective Conan characters, but they weren’t on some sort of mobius strip, doomed to repeat the same stories for all eternity. And obviously there were limitations to it, but that also worked out because this action movie doesn’t have to be canon. It’s like a weird what-if story in a sense, but with stuff you can add to canon if you wish. Also quite frankly, it was both a more exciting climax for the Bourbon arc, and had a scene that did more to get me excited for Rum than anything the normal series has. It was a good change of pace. The fact that it was absurd and dumb are not really negatives to me in this context because it was absurd and dumb in the fun type of ways. Even if I didn’t like it, I think I’d appreciate it for being different at least. Like we don’t need more of the same Detective Conan than we already get, we have more than enough. They’re gonna make Detective Conan movies like the ones they’ve been making, so I’d much prefer going all in on being dumb rather than some half-assed kinda murder mystery kinda action plot that doesn’t do either particularly well (though movie 18 is admittedly probably closer to what we should get).

I almost forgot Magic Kaito! Remember when they put out specials based off the Magic Kaito manga on occasion, and they actually changed a few things to focus on a new character for the series? Spider was such a cool edition, doubly so in the context of Magic Kaito being in sort of the same universe as Conan. But even on its own, that’s a fun villain character and he added something to the series and to potentially Hakuba as a character as well. And in general, it was a pretty solid adaptation and it was nice to see these stories finally adapted (even if I wish they did more of the wacky early chapters). But then they adapted it again literally a couple of years later. It was often the same stories except adapted slightly worse. I can’t think of a bigger waste of time, why did that exist? Why was it made? For what possible reason? What a waste of time that was...

Granted, none of what I say matters. In Japan, Conan it is still an incredibly successful series, and it can put out the same thing forever and the audience that actually watches it will continue to watch it. Most of them probably don’t care about any of this and just want their…murder mystery comfort food. I just assume it’s like Japan’s equivalent to all the crime dramas we have over here. Which is interesting to me since I certainly know people who will constantly watch them and fall for the same emotional scenes from one-off characters over and over. And I absolutely hate every single one of those shows I’ve seen. But I at least get it to some degree. However, at the end of the day, I want more out of Conan. It can be so compelling and it doesn’t have to be coasting on samey 5 or 6/10 episodes.

This was a long essay, and thank you to anyone who read the whole thing. Ironically, there are things in this essay that just recently I’ve seen the anime contradict or at least seem to notice. Bits of self-awareness or changes for a case that were appreciated. Stuff like that does give me hope. I still like the anime when it’s actually compelling. I just want it to be like that more often.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby Swagnarok » December 30th, 2018, 3:41 pm

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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby Kor » December 30th, 2018, 5:00 pm

kkslider5552000 wrote:I think maybe 3/4 of the anime this year has been AOs. That’s 30 episodes in just one year, so if a majority of them aren’t particularly entertaining, it’s hard to not see that as a huge disappointment.


Not to "well, actually" your talking point, but the amount of manga based eps isn't so drastically different from recent years.

2018:
18 manga based eps
22 AOs
9 remasters
vs 2017:
21 manga based eps
21 AOs
8 remasters
2016 also had 18 manga based eps so it's tied with 2018
2015 had 19 manga based eps
2014 had 24 manga based eps

2019 will probably be the "worst" one we've had cause of the giant hiatus and long breaks Gosho's been taking.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby Wakarimashita » December 30th, 2018, 9:55 pm

I suggest only watching manga-based episodes and 2 part AOs. It makes the viewing experience much less painful, especially since 2019 will be worse than 2018 in terms of AOs. Not to mention one part AOs have pretty much always been very subpar. In 2018 that would be 18 manga-based cases and 6 AOs, which is about the equivalent of one anime season of a show like My Hero Academia per year, not too shabby.

Frankly, the anime would be better off if they had stuck to the 30 episodes/year schedule they had around 2007-2008, but alas a time-slot change in 2009 made that impossible since it requires them to produce 40 episodes a year. Doesn't mean one has to watch them, though.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby kkslider5552000 » December 30th, 2018, 10:28 pm

Kor wrote:
Not to "well, actually" your talking point, but the amount of manga based eps isn't so drastically different from recent years.

2018:
18 manga based eps
22 AOs
9 remasters
vs 2017:
21 manga based eps
21 AOs
8 remasters
2016 also had 18 manga based eps so it's tied with 2018
2015 had 19 manga based eps
2014 had 24 manga based eps

2019 will probably be the "worst" one we've had cause of the giant hiatus and long breaks Gosho's been taking.

This actually really surprises me, since I have no memory of more than 5 manga based cases this year (I think all of which were 2 parters). But I did kinda know 2015 was when this really started but it's just felt worse this year. Maybe because 2018 has lasted for around half a decade by this point.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby Mario2000 » January 1st, 2019, 5:33 pm

Kkslider5552000, thank you for this interesting essay, but I would like to comment on 1 thing I disagree with:

kkslider5552000 wrote: There can’t be a real person on Earth who wants another one of those terrible Chiba love story cases over more of Satou and Takagi. I refuse to believe it. I reject the very idea.

I actually like the Chiba x Naeko love story; even though it's nothing special by itself, childhood friend romances are the best type of romances imo, although I agree with people who say that by increasing the number of such stories Gosho stopped really developing them, unfortunately.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby kkslider5552000 » January 2nd, 2019, 1:30 am

I also like Gosho's childhood romance stories, when they're actually good.

This is not.

Like really not.

Like calling it a half-assed version of his other childhood romance stories would be offensive to the quality of those stories.

It is the worst thing I've ever seen him write. Easily. And even a lot of the stuff surrounding it in those case I don't remember being anything good. IIRC, the last one in particular did a story about Chiba's weight and did it in like the worst way possible.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby Antiyonder » January 14th, 2019, 3:37 pm

kkslider5552000 wrote:As an aside, I wrote an essay a long time ago about the problems with Detective Conan, but it was with Ran specifically. I have to say, I think I might have to take it all back. I’m sorry, I didn’t fully think about what I was talking about, I think it might be controversial among some circles. Now of course, by that I mean, I have to take back when I implied I enjoyed Conan as a character more than Ran because of how their relationship was going (if for mostly unintentional reasons). Ran may be a boring character who’s supposed to just peacefully wait for her never returning boyfriend (with every attempt to not be that being less frequent or believable), but she doesn’t anger me. But after 10 years, I am so god damn sick of Edogawa Conan. This arrogant know-it-all, who can solve everything ever, knows everything ever, where nothing actually bad happens to him and consequences aren’t real. Like when people complain about Superman, this is basically the character I imagine they’re talking about. Always wins because they’re the best, arrogance with minimal to no repercussions, above us all, never changes. Like remember when Conan actually cared about what he might be doing to Ran by hiding in plain sight like he does? Yeah, guess that emotional core can be mostly ignored (except for a couple of AOs, of all things!). There’s just little to nothing likeable or enjoyable about him at all. Or what is there is hard to care about after all this time, at the very least. It’s really baffling compared to that one Shinichi story that took place in the past that characterized him as a kid so well, and is legit one of the best stories Gosho’s done this entire decade. So it’s like he can’t transfer that level of worthwhile, relatable characterization to Conan anymore, and it’s really a shame.


Yeah the staleness I could give some pass if it wasn't for Conan and Ran being the detective story version of Edward Cullen and Bella Swan. Unless the narrative does address the ickiness of Conan's deceit in the end (like it will end) and allows Ran to show some shakiness and heartbreak at not being trusted, then the only ones I'll ship Conan with his Lady Humility and Ms Development.

Yeah I sorry, but if Dragonball could age Goku into a teen and adult, I don't see why there's a fear that Ran being made a member of Team Conan would kill the story.

Heck, Iris West found out that Barry Allen was a super hero in the first Season of The Flash and today, we're still on Season 5 with no sign of cancellation of that show with both having been married since last season.

Anyway I think Conan and Ran is toxic, if only cause Ran knows at the very least that Shinichi has lied to her, yet as of the field trip arc was all to eager to be Mrs. Shinichi Kudo without any reservation or flat out letting him down in a calm way (i.e. we're not ready to date and have some maturing to do mentally).

And isn't predictability kind of a no-no in a mystery series even with the side elements like romance? Heck the eventual ending leaves no real room for any curves. Either Shin/Ran happens as we expect, or the lead character is stuck in his new form with Ran eventually waiting for him to age naturally. I mean despite Gosho believing otherwise* I doubt Ran would be intimate with him while he's a little boy even with the knowledge he's the same age as her.

So by this point, you might think this is simply a problem of one person. You’re already entirely wrong. Gosho Aoyama is not as good writer as he was 15 years ago, that I’m sure of. But, I’m not necessarily sure anyone in his position could be. Despite already being a successful mangaka well before Detective Conan, he has consistently been writing Detective Conan since 1994. This is literally all but 4 years of my entire life. With all the pressures and demands of being a top mangaka with a weekly shonen schedule, for nearly 25 years, it was inevitable that the series would eventually struggle to keep up being at the same high quality. I’d be hard pressed to find one series running for even close to that long that didn’t have some decline in quality. I’m pretty sure post-beloved era Simpsons has lasted much longer than pre at this point. This is arguably even more true when you’ve seen so much of what a series has offered already, and thus can’t be surprised as easily without it being a surprise only because it’s a bad idea you shouldn’t see done in a good series. So, if anything, I have a weird amount of respect for Gosho even when the quality isn’t there like I want it to be. Because I’m consistently amazed I still enjoy the series as much as I do and that it took this long to decline (like Death Note was past its peak in the 2nd half, and that’s a 12 volume manga. 12 volumes in, Haibara wasn’t in Conan yet). I’ve also always assumed that the fact that it is a murder mystery series only adds to the time and effort needed. I could be wrong, but I feel like the time and effort needed to create a believable, compelling murder mystery on top of everything else is above the average action manga or the like.


Simpsons at least never promised anything more than laughs, so I still tend to focus more critique on Conan. And really I think the actual problem is that once upon a time Gosho's higher effort was due to believing that he couldn't keep it up forever (how many claims of retirement of the series was there now?).

I don't doubt that time is a factor in declining quality, but between staleness and the prized couple just feeling toxic, I'm giving the present stories time to improve before the US arrival of Volume 75 (which doesn't end on a cliffhanger prompting the need to continue to the next volume) to cut ties to it.

Now unfortunate implication stuff aside, fine changing the dynamic between two characters who appeared the most is a major change (I feel the whole confession thing honestly was an illusion of change and arguably maybe some subconscious desire to break the rut without going further), but I think back to some of his actual good moves this decade. Ending the will they/won't they between Takagi and Sato, plus actually hooking up Shiratori with Kobayashi didn't cause riots in the street.

So why the hesitation to exploit more loop holes for changing things up (i.e. Sera not being among the new secret keepers)? Unless he's legally barred from making changes or fearing that the case loving fans (who are indifferent to the serialized elements) will drop the series? Only other reason he rarely tries to shake things ups is this stance:

"changes are bad, m'kay, so, if you like changes, you're bad, m'kay, because changes are bad. they can hurt your mind, m'kay, cause changes are bad, m'kay..." ;D


Anyway, I can at least respect that those who like the cases are satisfied with that. I just ask that the 5% like myself who wish the serialized had more integrity these days get the same respect and courtesy.


*I mean some suggest that the drama would be gone if the trust issues between Conan and Ran were also gone. But more than anything I think it paves the way for genuine stronger drama in that you have these two people who care for each other and have strong feelings. Feelings that really they can't act on because of the altered age of Shinichi. Unless one believes that Ran would overlook such a fact, how can anyone not see this potential for tension?
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby Misztina » January 14th, 2019, 5:13 pm

Gosho is doing a fine job, keeping DC interesting, but around volume 68-71 it was not good at all. He really needed time to introduce Sera, Mary, and Bourbon, and with Amuro, he hit a gold nugget. Despite the fact that he was meant to be a villain. I felt excitement while I was reading some of the Bourbon chapters, something I haven't felt since Akai's death.
But the new characters weren't the only change, the Shinichi-Ran realtionship changed. Up until then it was all about not confessing, because it hurts more than it should and here we are in Kyoto, with an almost kiss scene and Gosho said in his interview that:
Spoiler:
"Q50: Will there be episodes in which Shinichi will be active?
A: Well! I guess there will be. See. Since he's now in a relationship. Well, look forward to it.

This is sort of stepping out of the status quo or making a new one perhaps? Or is this sign of finally moving towards the very end? Gosho had a tough job with this realtionship, he wanted to make a rom-com, but their story was too sad, so he had to give them something sweet, so the show and the rom-com part can go on. The old drama (not telling Ran his feelings in obvious ways thus hurting her) is gone, we have a new one, where Shinichi might just pop-up every single time their relationship needs to. Gosho saves Ran's birthday for a special occasion, it will be a major thing, so what remains are silly excuses for him to turn into Shinichi, if he does before that. Personally he might use the antidote twice, once at Ran's birthday, the other is at a time when she is danger. He can be easily blackmailed, so either Mary and Sera take that step or the enemy.
I think my point is (sorry, I'm a bit tired, so I might not make too much sense, but I do hope you get the idea) that this current "we are dating" stituation cannot be held for too long, without becoming too silly.
I believe in Gosho and that he has standards, even if his current cases aren't the greatest, they are still better than the anime, that is for sure. I sometimes watch some AO's but they are not the real deal and it becomes even more obvious when you compare them to manga-based episodes. Sometimes they can be good but I think too many AOs hurt the characters more than help the series overall.
About Conan's character, again, there is a notable difference between anime and manga Conan. But in both of them he is too exposed. I mean, going to a school trip as Shinichi?! If we were in 2004 I would have not believed you that he risked that. In my opinion when Conan finally confesses, after everything is lost (maybe on the brink of death) Ran will just forgive him, saying, she already knew in her heart and blah-blah-yadda-yadda. Shinichi expects her to flip out, but he doesn't know women, so I guess Ran won't be punishing him for lying. And I agree with the others that it is bad. But she is a saint to the core, she is the better person, which would make Shinichi/Conan feel even more terrible, plus, he might stay as a kid and redo high-school etc. so if she waits for him, Shinichi owes her too much. After that he has to do anything for Ran, which would eventually make him a "henpecked husband", which contradicts his personality somewhat, but since he was the liar and the bad person he either endures it or leaves the realtionship, but he is too much into her to do so. And this is a reason why their realtionship is often seen as a toxic one.
I really wonder how Gosho will deal with this thing. I believe in him. And if he can't I'll always have my mind-fanfiction about Shin-Ran and their "break-up".
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby kkslider5552000 » January 14th, 2019, 5:26 pm

I wouldn't ever compare it to Twilight even at worst. The fact that Shinichi and Ran was a reasonable, interesting story at first will always give it points over flat out garbage. But at the same time, the fact that it has potential means it's just disappointing to watch. Honestly it really is just standard superhero stuff, but there's a reason people have slowly gotten rid of the old secret identity plot point. The stories that come from that are so tired and don't help the characters. No one wants those stories anymore.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby Antiyonder » January 14th, 2019, 6:45 pm

Misztina wrote:In my opinion when Conan finally confesses, after everything is lost (maybe on the brink of death) Ran will just forgive him, saying, she already knew in her heart and blah-blah-yadda-yadda. Shinichi expects her to flip out, but he doesn't know women, so I guess Ran won't be punishing him for lying. And I agree with the others that it is bad. But she is a saint to the core, she is the better person, which would make Shinichi/Conan feel even more terrible, plus, he might stay as a kid and redo high-school etc. so if she waits for him, Shinichi owes her too much. After that he has to do anything for Ran, which would eventually make him a "henpecked husband", which contradicts his personality somewhat, but since he was the liar and the bad person he either endures it or leaves the realtionship, but he is too much into her to do so. And this is a reason why their realtionship is often seen as a toxic one.
I really wonder how Gosho will deal with this thing. I believe in him. And if he can't I'll always have my mind-fanfiction about Shin-Ran and their "break-up".


Even being forgiving, you could still for the time being have Ran be a little shaken and not go into the stepford wife territory. Have moments where she's conversing with Conan or helping him out, but she will sometimes be a little shaky or seem a bit sad.

A fact which Conan will recognize with the realization or someone pointing it out to him that lying has that effect on even those with the patience of a saint.

As such Conan overtime works to let Ran in on things like his plans or development with his cases and you basically still have her in character while showing that mistakes have consequences (something the series actually use to employ) :o . Or you know we can just introduce a new character and wait 10 years to do much with them. ::)

The Mystery of Conan Edogawa again is a story that shows how to best do it. Best in that it keeps the forgiving part while still giving Ran some serious teeth of sorts and will keep the character as Conan Edogawa/Shinichi Kudo rather than turning into Karma Houdini.

I believe in Gosho and that he has standards, even if his current cases aren't the greatest, they are still better than the anime, that is for sure. I sometimes watch some AO's but they are not the real deal and it becomes even more obvious when you compare them to manga-based episodes. Sometimes they can be good but I think too many AOs hurt the characters more than help the series overall.


kkslider5552000 wrote:I wouldn't ever compare it to Twilight even at worst. The fact that Shinichi and Ran was a reasonable, interesting story at first will always give it points over flat out garbage.


I don't know. I'm sure a banana peel tastes better than doggie doo, but I wouldn't recommend trying them unless you're doing an internet video for cash. Even then careful. :o

Crude comparison aside, it could be worse when you think about it. I mean I've heard the whole point of Ran is that she's the ideal Japanese housewife material and that's why the other female characters are allowed to do more. She represents how wives should be. Revolving your life around your hubby and putting up with any treatment towards yourself from him (deceit in this case).

And no I don't think it makes Gosho's writing okay. Sometimes the best writing comes when a writer wants to go above their comfort zones for art (i.e. exotic locations and mysteries).

Plus sometimes good writers recognize that while we need rules and regulations, some of them are problematic or need to be re-examined. At least not being a government tool who blindly obeys without question.

Some early Pokémon episodes like "School of Hard Knocks" and "The Ultimate Exams" (entertaining episodes btw, even suggest that a childhood purely consisting of study might not be for everyone and sometimes you have to find your own path to succeed or be happy.

When a toyetic show can do such a thing, I expect a relatively more smarter show to do even better.

But at the same time, the fact that it has potential means it's just disappointing to watch. Honestly it really is just standard superhero stuff, but there's a reason people have slowly gotten rid of the old secret identity plot point. The stories that come from that are so tired and don't help the characters. No one wants those stories anymore.
[/quote]

I think what makes it worse is that people say it's standard of shonen, but I don't know. Unlike Yusuke Urameshi from Yu Yu Hakusho who started as a punk and became a more heroic figure, albeit with an edge, Shinichi started off with a hero complex and I think it fair to judge him on that merit.

And yes the punk turned hero comes off as a more credible and stand up guy nowadays compared to Conan.

As for secret identities ironically I don't think they need to be a dying just reexamining them or not being married to them. To me anyway, Keeping Ran in the dark just feels like a holdover of the old boys club mentality that some of our gender should have avoided having or growing out of.

Between the fact that she and Kogoro were targets during 425 without anyone realizing the fact, or that Conan told Eisuke for the sake of cockblocking makes it seem that keeping her in the dark is less for her protection and more that she's not cool enough to be part of their exclusive club. For crying out loud, I bet they'd be less on guard towards say Sonoko or the Detective Boys while still singling out Ran because she's a girlfriend and not cool.

Yeah I could buy Conan being emotionally compromised not to acknowledge how Kogoro and Ran were close to being killed anyway, but between those who should be more detached like Agasa, Ai, Yukiko. Yusaku or Heiji should have spoken up following that story.

If keeping up the status quo is important enough that you can't do that, then don't write stories that prove your premise is flaws (i.e. trusting kills, lying saves lives). I state such because we've had two cases early on like The Game Company Murder Case and Reunion With The Black Organization that have Conan breaking the one commandment of the series "Thou shall not tellith the truth", and we get major casualties.

Heck, Ai's (who's face shows a bandaged wound) comment in the latter (which is flashbacked to in The Desperate Revival) basically is her acting as a mouthpiece for Gosho stating "This is why we don't break the statuo quo. People will die a biblical death. Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! 40 years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes! The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!" And I'd argue the best moments of early Conan that bit aside is that you don't try to break the illusion. If statuo quo has to be kept, don't constantly remind us of that through your character in-universe.


That said, how to better do secret identities in general using Conan as an example. Well if the trustworthy Ran* can't find out, stick to your guns and don't allow a quarter of Japan to know then.

If you're going to have others brought in overtime, plus having a story like Episode 425, then you need to set up Ran's inclusion in the group sooner. People (Gosho, his editors and fans who aren't tired of the story) want to have the series going on for years. Fine. You do you.

Also you don't make the secret identity, especially with moments like Episode 425 this clear cut matter of the hero doing the definitive right thing. Actually show that good intentions can backfire and that even detective teens that shrink into kid aged bodies don't know it all.

Actually, screw it. I'm going to finally take an old piece of mine to thread and see if I can prove why change can make things better.


To close for the moment though I suppose I also take issue with the lack of efforts on the serialized elements as of late is because I feel Gosho lacked faith in a mystery story to work unless there was an arc to tie stuff together. Though considering how Simpsons was running for 4-5 years as Conan started, I don't think he had a leg to stand on if that's the case. Heck we see most of the fans could careless about resolving the plot.

So yeah if it's such a burden to put effort into the serialized elements, maybe you shouldn't have had them to start with unless you had conviction to prioritize them equally with the stand alone cases. I mean some would say that Conan doesn't make sense as a character unless he's really a high school teen, but that didn't stop the preschool case from inserting more iq into Pre-K Shinichi when early in the series he was more of a flawed and less of a Stu character.

*Seriously even when she outed herself in The Desperate Revival, it still proves she kept the knowledge on her mind for quite sometime even for a good amount of days, outwitting Conan. Imagine that with acting lessons from Yukiko to help her conceal her poker face.
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby kkslider5552000 » January 15th, 2019, 1:41 am

It's gonna suck if we find out that we would've gotten everything we wanted by now if it wasn't for some higher up somewhere. That's my main thought, because I can never see Detective Conan and just assume all its problems are on Gosho. If this was a couple of decades ago, you'd probably be mad at Toriyama for Dragonball becoming ridiculous towards the end.

I think when talking to Mangaluva I compared it to being mad at a writer for Suicide Squad. I don't think that's the best comparison because I assume Shonen Sunday is run by sane human beings. But the comparison is that...you can't be too surprised. It was gonna happen and the writer is not in a position to succeed. And he should succeed and fail on his own terms with his own ideas.

I hope at least these absurdly long gaps have helped. No one should have a mangaka schedule for that long...
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby Antiyonder » January 15th, 2019, 2:10 am

kkslider5552000 wrote:It's gonna suck if we find out that we would've gotten everything we wanted by now if it wasn't for some higher up somewhere. That's my main thought, because I can never see Detective Conan and just assume all its problems are on Gosho. If this was a couple of decades ago, you'd probably be mad at Toriyama for Dragonball becoming ridiculous towards the end.


Apples and oranges really. DB or at least more in it's later years was more of a simple battle oriented series and I've long accepted Pokémon's quality issues for being a toyetic even if that doesn't really excuse the quality issues.

I don't know, it's why I disagree with hardcore anime fans who insist Japanese animation outrank US Animation for having more shows with a set goal.

Set goals can be good for the sake of making a story focused. But unless the stars align (like say Avatar The Last Airbender, not an anime mind you), set goals can be a liability unless the writer will exploit loopholes to maintain some freshness. By stars aligning I mean a show with an endgame goal will work best if the author has the clout to end the story when he/she feel burnout approaching, and have the integrity to do so.

With something like Dragonball, Sailor Moon, Yu Yu Hakusho, Digimon as a whole or even some of the good US super hero cartoons you have the best of both worlds so to speak. You can keep a show going without stalling a story arc for years.

With something like Conan, yeah the only way to keep it going is to keep it stuck in time with nary a progress.


That said, yeah I still do kind of think Gosho arguably could merit some blame. I'm just saying that lets say that maybe he wants to do an actual change that will shake the story up while not jeopardizing the ability to keep it going like say Ran becoming part of Team Conan, but his editors have voiced critique for it.

Toriyama met with resistance for wanting to age Goku and did so anyway. So I'd half to wonder why Gosho couldn't pull a similar move if it's really him having to answer to others.

Another reason I put the blame on it being him? Well one of the issues when it comes to Ran is that he has a habit from time to time to have her appearing too much even when she doesn't really contribute to a particular story. But as a poster during 2016 (September 3rd) in the "Why do people dislike Ran?" thread point out on the last page:

The anime directors cannot find anything to do with Ran at all. Recent AO cases we can see the absence of Ran, just Kogoro and Conan is enough. In the recent movie, Ran does not appear more than 5 minutes and contribute nothing to the movies (Heck, in the trailer, Ran is still crying and call"Shinichi" which doesn't appear on the screen at all).


Sure editors could have more to do with things than I suggest, but I don't think some of the issues are of mandate. If AO episodes can omit Ran, then why didn't Gosho exercise the option more often?

Or for that matter, I have a hard time believing that he's under orders to make Conan more of a Gary Stu with any current flaws not being treated as problematic.
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby Misztina » January 15th, 2019, 4:05 pm

Antiyonder wrote:And no I don't think it makes Gosho's writing okay. Sometimes the best writing comes when a writer wants to go above their comfort zones for art (i.e. exotic locations and mysteries).

Plus sometimes good writers recognize that while we need rules and regulations, some of them are problematic or need to be re-examined. At least not being a government tool who blindly obeys without question.

Some early Pokémon episodes like "School of Hard Knocks" and "The Ultimate Exams" (entertaining episodes btw, even suggest that a childhood purely consisting of study might not be for everyone and sometimes you have to find your own path to succeed or be happy.

When a toyetic show can do such a thing, I expect a relatively more smarter show to do even better.


If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Exotic locations? They basically travelled Japan back and forth, went to London(!) and in the movie this year to Singapore. Mysteries? Um... this is a mystery show... Or how else can DC be different? Maybe the collaborations with Kaito Kid, they are unique and not typically DC-ish.
And the anime went enough out of the comfort zone imo.

That Pokémon comparison... ugh.
In DC people kill eachother, themselves, there is drama, deep meanings, hard life lessons, Conan not being able to save someone, what else are you expecting in raising the game?

It does push boundaries. A kids show with murderers. You should depend on others too, even if you are the smartest [email protected], because alone you can't deal with everything. Don't take on you too many responsibilities, people are there to help you.

Antiyonder wrote:Between the fact that she and Kogoro were targets during 425 without anyone realizing the fact, or that Conan told Eisuke for the sake of cockblocking makes it seem that keeping her in the dark is less for her protection and more that she's not cool enough to be part of their exclusive club. For crying out loud, I bet they'd be less on guard towards say Sonoko or the Detective Boys while still singling out Ran because she's a girlfriend and not cool.


Agreed. The stupidest and one of the most unreasonable thing was to tell his real ID to Eisuke.


Then again, this is fiction. It is there to entertain or to express the writers views. You either do want you want, or entertain the crowd, doing both means pleasing none sometimes.
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Re: Detective Conan VS The Status Quo

Postby Antiyonder » January 15th, 2019, 7:04 pm

Misztina wrote:
Antiyonder wrote:And no I don't think it makes Gosho's writing okay. Sometimes the best writing comes when a writer wants to go above their comfort zones for art (i.e. exotic locations and mysteries).

Plus sometimes good writers recognize that while we need rules and regulations, some of them are problematic or need to be re-examined. At least not being a government tool who blindly obeys without question.

Some early Pokémon episodes like "School of Hard Knocks" and "The Ultimate Exams" (entertaining episodes btw, even suggest that a childhood purely consisting of study might not be for everyone and sometimes you have to find your own path to succeed or be happy.

When a toyetic show can do such a thing, I expect a relatively more smarter show to do even better.


If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Exotic locations? They basically travelled Japan back and forth, went to London(!) and in the movie this year to Singapore. Mysteries? Um... this is a mystery show... Or how else can DC be different? Maybe the collaborations with Kaito Kid, they are unique and not typically DC-ish.
And the anime went enough out of the comfort zone imo.

That Pokémon comparison... ugh.
In DC people kill eachother, themselves, there is drama, deep meanings, hard life lessons, Conan not being able to save someone, what else are you expecting in raising the game?

It does push boundaries. A kids show with murderers. You should depend on others too, even if you are the smartest [email protected], because alone you can't deal with everything. Don't take on you too many responsibilities, people are there to help you.


I'm talking about the idea of recognizing that women aren't the play things of their boyfriend/husband. Case in point:
1. If the Eisuke tricking Conan had the happen, it should have ended with the latter stating "Ran's a big girl and as much as it's hard for me to say, she can make her own decisions on who dates her".

2. Ran willing to let herself be murdered because she'd look purdy just because of a stupid piece of paper? No thanks. That's not a smart person making a healthy lapse in decision. It's someone who needs therapy. The only healthy decision is "be true to herself" and "screw predictions, I'm not letting an ahole kill me".

Basically question the societal wisdom of denying women their agency and that possessiveness is arguably a step towards abuse (i.e. a crime).
The Mystery of Conan Edogawa.

Arguably one of the best attempts at tackling the story of "Ran discovering the secret behind Conan". It's strong point is taking a common plot for Detective Conan fan fics and presenting it in a fresh manner such as:
- Touching on things that aren't dealt with in the show or discussed much.
- While there is some understanding towards Conan's predicament, the fic doesn't ignore the problematic approach he takes towards keeping quiet.

So, do yourself a favor and read this. I only wish I could so something half as decent.

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