Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby jimmy_kud0_tv2 » September 15th, 2018, 7:42 pm

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:And how long are the breaks taken by Mr. Hunter x Hunter? Are they 9-16 weeks, as well?


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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby Kor » September 15th, 2018, 9:28 pm

Here are some more statistics (just for the heck of it) starting from the beginning of the Rum Arc. (if I made a mathematical mistake feel free to point it out)

Including the chapter that will be released on November 28th (and all the weeks of break until then), it means 218 weeks of Shonen Sunday publications, 124 of which include new Conan chapters. This means that since the start of the Rum Arc, Conan chapters were released 56.88% of the time.
If you want to include the 6 Magic Kaito chapters Gosho released during said 218 weeks, this brings it up to 59.63 Gosho publications.

I personally hope Gosho doesn't plan to do the usual schtick and resolve the Rum plot only around the 1100 chapter mark, because at his current pace, it will take him 3-4 years to get there, and we're already close to 4.5 years with this arc.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby MoonRaven » September 16th, 2018, 8:04 am

Does anyone realize that the most recent chapter marks Hagiwara Kenji's manga debut? Mere mention in the bombing case and ZTT doesn't count.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » September 16th, 2018, 8:59 pm

I know, right? I was pretty surprised when I found out that he didn’t appear in the manga version of the bombing case…
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby kentasaiba » September 17th, 2018, 9:20 am

Is there anyone from the movies left? Maybe that one police chief? The Nara Inspector? Curacao?
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby Kor » September 17th, 2018, 11:09 am

@asonker019292

This is a discussion thread. I moved your post to the Fan Works board here viewtopic.php?f=7&p=880188#p880188
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby Zerozaki4869 » September 17th, 2018, 11:39 am

The biggest mystery regarding Scotch is that BO knew his affiliation but not his name. So BO knew this by some association rule, not by identifying Scotch as Inspector Hiromitsu from PSB. So what I think is that someone from BO saw a picture of Scotch in home/office of some PSB colleague or friend of Scotch. If anything I suspect the dumb-ass Kazami gave him away. Maybe he had a photo of Scotch and didn't know that the person seeing him with the photo was from BO and knew his affiliation.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby mtcc » September 19th, 2018, 6:58 am

page 11 very important
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby blackmoon » September 19th, 2018, 7:59 am

I just wonder if Scotch will be saved and brought back to life like that which happened to someone from a previous file ???

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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby Memesu » September 19th, 2018, 12:17 pm

The hole goes through in the phone, though.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby shinichi1977 » October 5th, 2018, 4:08 am

Zerozaki4869 wrote:The biggest mystery regarding Scotch is that BO knew his affiliation but not his name. So BO knew this by some association rule, not by identifying Scotch as Inspector Hiromitsu from PSB. So what I think is that someone from BO saw a picture of Scotch in home/office of some PSB colleague or friend of Scotch. If anything I suspect the dumb-ass Kazami gave him away. Maybe he had a photo of Scotch and didn't know that the person seeing him with the photo was from BO and knew his affiliation.



There seem to be occasions where for whatever reason, the author refuses to seek help. This has happened before when he painted himself into the corner with trying to explain how Akai was booted from the organization. He did a brilliant set up with Vermouth stealing the police's files on Mouri so she can find out who's FBI and how to contact them, but forgot that when Camel just straight up told an unrelated (or supposed to be unrelated) third party that they run a sting operation. Just I had to overlook Camel dropped over from America as a backup without jet lag and by having the fastest clearance a US law enforcement officer has ever gotten from the State Department.

This time, both Scotch and Bourbon were cops before they got reassigned to the PSB. There's a glaringly obvious mistake here regardless of how much I idolize the author. One, if the actual PSB really did do things like that, Japan is in a massive trouble. Even if an academy candidate and former cop commit a heinous crime later on, they won't be removed from class graduation pictures. As such, other cops and visitors had seen them publicly, which brings up how on Earth Bourbon isn't dead yet.

There's, however, a second, bigger problem. I can totally buy that an international organization gets infiltrated by various agencies on different occasions. What I don't buy is lessening the threat of a powerful enemy. I rephrase: Canaris went to prison and died for self-preservation, the Abwehr wasn't simply infiltrated by 1943 because they slept at the wheel, rather because they used or tried to use the existing double agents to extract themselves from the Nazi war machine. So, yes, it's possible that even the Black Organization can get weakened in this manner after high ranking members realize the turn of the tide, but in that case, show it.

As of now, it seems that even I could infiltrate them, and I don't think that's the intention. I have a long-running suspicion, something Gosho has partially confirmed in the past, that he takes the time to work out a really great idea, but then gets too busy or uninterested to follow it through, which I think is a shame.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 5th, 2018, 10:43 am

shinichi1977 wrote:This time, both Scotch and Bourbon were cops before they got reassigned to the PSB. There's a glaringly obvious mistake here regardless of how much I idolize the author. One, if the actual PSB really did do things like that, Japan is in a massive trouble. Even if an academy candidate and former cop commit a heinous crime later on, they won't be removed from class graduation pictures. As such, other cops and visitors had seen them publicly, which brings up how on Earth Bourbon isn't dead yet.


The only potential answer I have for you is that they had prior history with the BO and thus convinced the BO they were infiltrating the police for the BO when, in actuality, they were infiltrating the BO for the police—in other words, they pretended to be BO double agents when they were actually Security Bureau triple agents.

But we haven’t seen any hints that Rei/Tōru/Bourbon is telling the BO about NPA Security Bureau plans, as he would have to if this were the case, so…
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby shinichi1977 » October 5th, 2018, 11:24 am

DCUniverseAficionado wrote:
shinichi1977 wrote:This time, both Scotch and Bourbon were cops before they got reassigned to the PSB. There's a glaringly obvious mistake here regardless of how much I idolize the author. One, if the actual PSB really did do things like that, Japan is in a massive trouble. Even if an academy candidate and former cop commit a heinous crime later on, they won't be removed from class graduation pictures. As such, other cops and visitors had seen them publicly, which brings up how on Earth Bourbon isn't dead yet.


The only potential answer I have for you is that they had prior history with the BO and thus convinced the BO they were infiltrating the police for the BO when, in actuality, they were infiltrating the BO for the police—in other words, they pretended to be BO double agents when they were actually Security Bureau triple agents.

But we haven’t seen any hints that Rei/Tōru/Bourbon is telling the BO about NPA Security Bureau plans, as he would have to if this were the case, so…


I was thinking that too, but my problem is a bit different. Scorsese's famous The Departed is based on the Infernal Affairs trilogy, which in turn was based on the reality, that the criminal underworld in Hong Kong had linked up so well with legal officials in high places, that the ICAC had practically failed in purging police corruption.

The major difference is (and I do think Gosho did base the idea on the IA series) that in those stories the guys were already fired at the academy or was explained as them finding out he had a criminal background, so they let him go, and that was a believable cover. Gosho himself has set up that the organization even when Karasuma was running it is one where they thoroughly vet people. Rei wasn't only an academy graduate, as a kid, he knew Shiho's parents who even by then were members, but even prospective candidates are heavily surveyed (unless they're massively paranoid like Itakura was).

So if you set them up as "we pay attention to every little detail" and "we eliminate threats in a very early stage", this is a massive oversight which ridicules the organization. We did see that with Kir, after risking life and limb, partaking in killing Shuichi, she still was suspected when a scarred one showed up. I absolutely do expect the organization to get weakened over time, as exponential growth and/or internal structure changes always are a downfall of empires. My beef is that we don't get to see how numerous they are.

I've created a story where I juggle at least 500 characters, so I don't underestimate the effort being put in, but if I ever would get so lucky as the sensei to have a team at his disposal, I'd definitely ask for 4 or 5 additional writers with whom I can discuss subplots and they'd do that, with me focusing on the main plot. As things stand, one of his orphans is Night Baron. Many, including me, have expected the Itakura job to be a payoff to that as it would have explained just how the organization got a functioning copy, but my humble guess is, that by the time the Bell Tree Express came around, he suddenly remembered he never did explain what Itakura was supposed to do, and what he gave us was vague, to say the least, and that's just on top of how he gives the resolution to Shinichi without physical evidence (and as such, after setting up Gin hating having to give backup to Vermouth, they just merrily went along with managing the Itakura deal even though it was meant for her, not the organization.)

I only suspect he hit the fatigue stage around 5 or 6 years ago, and because I can't read Japanese, I'm not privy to know if he has apprentices carrying on the work after 2 decades doing this.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » October 5th, 2018, 12:40 pm

shinichi1977 wrote:Scorsese's famous The Departed is based on the Infernal Affairs trilogy, which in turn was based on the reality, that the criminal underworld in Hong Kong had linked up so well with legal officials in high places, that the ICAC had practically failed in purging police corruption.

The major difference is (and I do think Gosho did base the idea on the IA series) that in those stories the guys were already fired at the academy or was explained as them finding out he had a criminal background, so they let him go, and that was a believable cover. Gosho himself has set up that the organization even when Karasuma was running it is one where they thoroughly vet people. Rei wasn't only an academy graduate, as a kid, he knew Shiho's parents who even by then were members, but even prospective candidates are heavily surveyed (unless they're massively paranoid like Itakura was).


To be more specific, I suppose that the BO would have to believe they got to both Rei and Hiromitsu before the police could, then ordered them to enroll at the academy with the express purpose of having double agents in the police—the BO’s plan, here, would be to have prestigious police academy graduates (and in Hiromitsu’s case, have people with police familial connections) be their double agents in order to lessen suspicion against them from the police side.

In other words, the BO may have wanted prestigious police academy graduates with familial connections to the police to have, what they might have thought would be, the best infiltrators.

The only way I think they could’ve gotten inside without being detected is if the BO was convinced that they were always on the BO’s side—thus, their police connections would’ve been a part of the plan, not a danger that had to be expunged immediately (though, with Scotch, it did eventually get to that point).

shinichi1977 wrote:So if you set them up as "we pay attention to every little detail" and "we eliminate threats in a very early stage", this is a massive oversight which ridicules the organization. We did see that with Kir, after risking life and limb, partaking in killing Shuichi, she still was suspected when a scarred one showed up. I absolutely do expect the organization to get weakened over time, as exponential growth and/or internal structure changes always are a downfall of empires. My beef is that we don't get to see how numerous they are.


The “something big is happening in the organization” point that Gosho brought up in an interview hasn’t been addressed in the manga—that point would be perfect to address this concern. We haven’t seen Hidemi/Rena/Kir in 9 years. It’s been 6 years since Mystery Train. He’s really been holding off on tackling this.

shinichi1977 wrote:I've created a story where I juggle at least 500 characters, so I don't underestimate the effort being put in, but if I ever would get so lucky as the sensei to have a team at his disposal, I'd definitely ask for 4 or 5 additional writers with whom I can discuss subplots and they'd do that, with me focusing on the main plot. As things stand, one of his orphans is Night Baron. Many, including me, have expected the Itakura job to be a payoff to that as it would have explained just how the organization got a functioning copy, but my humble guess is, that by the time the Bell Tree Express came around, he suddenly remembered he never did explain what Itakura was supposed to do, and what he gave us was vague, to say the least, and that's just on top of how he gives the resolution to Shinichi without physical evidence (and as such, after setting up Gin hating having to give backup to Vermouth, they just merrily went along with managing the Itakura deal even though it was meant for her, not the organization.)


And what sprawling story are you working on, if you don’t mind me asking? At least 500 characters sounds like quite the endeavor.

Yeah, if Itakura’s program was for Vermouth, not the BO, then, at the point that case took place (377–383/307–311), I wonder how she got Gin to handle it…

That point you made earlier about Gosho sometimes getting uninterested in prior plot threads is spot on—some of them just get left to dust unless something brings him back to it, and given how log it’s been since some of them got started, he may return to them with completely new intentions.

shinichi1977 wrote:I only suspect he hit the fatigue stage around 5 or 6 years ago, and because I can't read Japanese, I'm not privy to know if he has apprentices carrying on the work after 2 decades doing this.


And what case (or set of cases) was the start of that?

I can’t imagine he’s doing more work, considering the new file output—by the same token, I also can’t imagine the assistants doing less work. So, yes—I can imagine them doing more than usual.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
“Education never ends... it is a series of lessons, with the greatest for the last.”
― Arthur Conan Doyle, The Complete Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and His Last Bow
"I have decided to stick to love... hate is too great a burden to bear."
— Martin Luther King Jr. (A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King, Jr)
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan 1,018-1021

Postby shinichi1977 » October 5th, 2018, 2:41 pm

I try to reply as composed as possible, you bring up good points ;)

I did bring up The Departed for that exact reason, and it'd work with Rei, but he's stingy on giving out new information. Scotch on the other hand... unless his older brother enrolled to be a cop later on, which is sheer impossible in Japan due to honor and tradition, bound to firstborn sons, to put it mildly, Gin would have always suspected he has the stench of a cop on him and had gotten the boot faster than Rye. That being said, with sensei working 100 hour weeks to literal exhaustion, I don't think he fleshed it out so far as you mention it, my best guess is he wanted to emulate Beat Takeshi and his yakuza movies.

My thoughts on why he's holding on multiply folded and doesn't get me liked among fans. We know that he hates writing in English (even though he just has thousands of eager fans who'd readily jump at a chance), and I'm guessing as he gets older, he likes the toll it takes creating complex stories less and less. If Shinichi were real, we were the same age, so I do get how demanding it is. Almost like a natural high where working on the idea gets you on on the uphill slope on the rollercoaster, but the crashing down phase comes earlier year by year. He still deserves to be called Superman though. I've only worked an 80-hour week once in my life and was exhausted.

The story I initially started out with was a quite simple affair and I didn't plan further than one book. Then I encountered DC and as my way of thinking expanded, so did the universe in which it plays. Not every character is already physically written, some are still stored in my "brain palace". In short, it's about a former military investigator turned insurance detective who makes it his mission to find and neutralize a syndicate responsible for his fall from grace and his conviction for murdering his wife. Some clandestine operatives within the matrix model of the syndicate try to erode it to support their own plans, so the protagonist has an on again off again relationship with them while also being on the run (part of his betrayal was that he now has the face of a traitor who used to be an agent of the syndicate). I plan to place it somewhere between a consultant, a traveling helper and a right previous wrongs type of person in a non-linear storytelling fashion. The catch is though of course, that publishing isn't an easy business so to get the in, I do commission work.

On a personal level, I dislike dangling plot threads. At least with American shows, I know that overarching plot will move forward in a midseason or a season finale. It might be I'd return to something a hundred stories later, except that's something I plan to do from the get-go. I surmise that Gosho, like 19th-century writers who also published chapter by chapter, actually does come up with something for that story and then moves on. I think it was Singapore interview, where he was reminded Akemi sent a P.S. to Akai and if we will get to see it. I'm not a betting man, but I doubt he wants to feign incompetence and he genuinely forgot he needs to write that. Of course, seasoned writers know, if you leave it vague enough, you can fill the content and connect it to something else. That's pretty much what the new showrunners of Lost did when American Gosho (J.J. Abrams) left them after setting up mysteries to which he did not leave answers to.

I've always thought Heiji was brought in so that Shinichi can prove he's a better detective, but also further Shinichi's trial to become better than his father. Alongside him, other regular characters started to appear less, but yet others like Genta and co got promoted to darker storylines. The Raven Chaser played it for laughs, but yes, Shinichi does indeed already know so many characters that even one Freudian slip would suffice to confirm he's no kid. That kind of progress is amiss here. The genius of Rowling is, that if you reread the first Potter book, had he been privy to info way earlier, 3 characters would have solved the story. She wrote seven because potential fans needed to grow with the story. It's not a problem he can't or won't do that, compared to other shonen mangas heavily geared only toward boys, he's a way better writer as is. The solution to is branching out and he knows this because Heiji's favorite author is Ellery Queen, who were two people. My fear is that due to his high fame, the psychological wall of perceiving the approach of others as one entity is very thick, and people in that position don't know how to ask for help. That's especially bad in light of anime originals, that commit the crime against humanity of not only disrespecting the source material but also lacking the talent of crafting quality stories.

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