Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Zerozaki4869

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

Kudo Shinchi wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 6:51 am
The Nagano Snowy Mountains Case (1027-1031) feels important. It features what are in my mind the only viable Rum candidates at this stage (Kuroda and Wakita) in close proximity to Bourbon, the only person in the cast who regularly contacts Rum. By having Rei dodge Conan's question about whether or not he had personally met Rum, Gosho shrewdly allows for divergent readings of the case. Without that essential piece of information--would Rei recognize Rum if he met him--we're left uncertain as to how we should interpret Rei's interactions with Wakita and Kuroda.

Rei doesn't appear particularly perturbed by Wakita's presence, yet he goes out of his way to deflect any possible interest Wakita has in Conan (who picks up on this, as he shoots Rei a curious look when he insists to Wakita that Conan has no real deductive skills). In fact, the case's main source of tension comes from Rei's interactions with Wakita, who is portrayed as a potential BO operative skeptical of Rei's loyalty. Thus we get Wakita menacingly talking to Rei about weeding out traitors (in the context of cheating fish vendors, of course). Thematically, the case itself is about traitors, as the culprit believed his victims betrayed their mutual close friend by deliberately losing an important baseball match in return for admission to a prestigious university--by cheating, in other words.

The other major theme in this case is time. The reason the murder victims purposely lost the baseball match wasn't to secure their spots at a university, but to save their friend's baseball career, as he had promised to keep pitching balls to the end despite injuring himself by pitching too many in too short a time. He'd built his reputation on being an abnormally fast pitcher, but it was that same speed that prematurely ended his career. Lots of time-related irony all around. This fixation on time crops up in the very fist pages of the case, when Conan wonders whether PSB agents like Rei have too much free time, and again when Rei describes Rum as exceedingly impatient, presumably because he believes that "time is money." We see Wakita's impatience repeatedly, from opening the door to the church when no one opens it for the visitors to interrupting the panicking suspects when thy don't immediately show Mouri the respect he's due. But interestingly, we also see Kuroda bing impatient as well--when Kansuke doesn't immediately oblige Kuroda's request that he speak to Koumei, Kuroda shouts, "What are you waiting for? Switch me over!" The case ends with Koumi reflecting to himself, "Time is money, as the saying goes..." Did he hear this from anyone recently? Kuroda, perhaps?
My two pennies.......
a) Kuroda called Kansuke from an unknown number.
b) Kuroda used kansuke as a link when he had the means to contact Komei.
c) Wakita during the whole case never put his hand in his pockets when everyone around him was doing so. He does only once when he is opening the door.
vaibhavgupte

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

today I rewatched the SONG NAMED ASACA case:
this case is right in kouji haneda arc .so very imp.
3 suspects looked very similar to wakita, wakasa and kuroda
wakita and wakasa werent even introduced at this point.
yet they looked similar there were hints in this case.
1) victim commited suicide which was made to look
like murder. (same in scriptwriter case with 3 people
looking like rum, it was suicide ).
plus scotch suicide was shown (again dressed as murder)
this hints that kouji killed himself fearing the organisation.
2) the lady was victim lover.
so wakasa could be lover of kouji.
hence she called him foolish person since he
comitted suicide by fear.
3) the wakita lookalike suspect wears tsutomu like hat.
wakita also wears it in nagano church case.
4) the suspect like kuroda was lover of wakasa like
suspect even though she loved the victim.
so although he is rum still protecting wakasa
despite she made some mistake in kouji case.

In burning tent case , the kuroda wakasa dynamic
look like a stalker or one sided love from kuroda.

this also explains why wakita says although rum is weak horse why bet so much on it
Last edited by vaibhavgupte on May 23rd, 2020, 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
vaibhavgupte

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

another similar case was scriptwriter murder case
( 3 descriptions of rum case).
here again the suspects were 3 descriptions of rum.
now this was again suicide. and none was murderer.
therefore some say that its fourth suspect. well yes
maybe true .
but important point is the 3 suspects although not
murderer were part of robbery case.
hinting all thre suspects even if not rum
are in bo.( may or maynot undercover).

now if wakita is not rum ,
most will agree he has high chance of being bo
(although he maybe undercover tsutomu but still)

if wakasa is not rum still most will agree that
she can be part of bo. like asaka or someone else.
(still loving kouji)

now if kuroda is not rum . its very difficult
to imagine that some relatively lower member
got infiltrated into such high postion in police.

so even if rum is fourth suspect like chikara
he possibly has switched with kuroda.
mtcc

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by mtcc »

hello I was thinking about using same trick as kyoto trip case when we get dekuri name from suspects names
rumi kanj 留美
hyoe kanji 兵衛
we can get yoshie 美衛 same possible reading in the aptx list i know the kanji is different but same possible reading
maybe yoshie is rumi and somehow she is alive or rumi and yoshie know each other or related
and also kanenori and rumi kanji we can get minori which also in aptx list

in the and maybe rumi related not only to the koji in the list but also to yoshie or minori
or rumi is one of aptx victims and she is still alive somehow
KingWilson

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by KingWilson »

mtcc wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 1:03 pm
in the and maybe rumi related not only to the koji in the list but also to yoshie or minori
or rumi is one of aptx victims and she is still alive somehow
In my opinion, i think it is very likely that rumi is only related to haneda kohji bc of the flashback memories and not aptx victims though, also rumi has aptx victim list which imply that she is not victim of aptx victim list but a possible BO member or NOC like Amuro.
Reader

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Reader »

There's a room for doubt regarding this Rumi having aptx victim list. Rumi has to be someone important to the story to posses it. So Rumi cannot ONLY be Asaka(if she is), she has to be someone else as well like BO, NoC as mentioned by many so far.
I am afraid this whole thing might turn out like that Sera in Bourbon arc, where she was once shown saying something like"it is easier to delete this way", she was referring to the Haibara's photo on her PC. (I think it was some case involving a rug. ) That was sinister, but we all know what happened of that Sera-Haibara clash.
In similar fashion one can consider the aptx list. Hope this all converges to something huge.
Regre

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Regre »

Regarding Rumi, I agree with the consensus on her not being Rum. However, both her intelligence and motives are interesting to me. Whether she is NoC or BO, I think her status in either is likely high.
Currently, I am suspecting Kuroda to be the most likely candidate for being Rum. But in files 987-989, she gave the clue to both Conan and Kuroda for the case's solution. If Kuroda were to be Rum, it would mean Rumi is someone who could outwit BO's second in command. This is assuming that Kuroda is used to detective stuff ofc.
Maybe Rumi is someone big herself in someway...
KingWilson

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by KingWilson »

Regre wrote:
Yesterday, 6:13 am
Regarding Rumi, I agree with the consensus on her not being Rum. However, both her intelligence and motives are interesting to me. Whether she is NoC or BO, I think her status in either is likely high.
Currently, I am suspecting Kuroda to be the most likely candidate for being Rum. But in files 987-989, she gave the clue to both Conan and Kuroda for the case's solution. If Kuroda were to be Rum, it would mean Rumi is someone who could outwit BO's second in command. This is assuming that Kuroda is used to detective stuff ofc.
Maybe Rumi is someone big herself in someway...
In my opinion,pretty unlikely for Kuroda to be Rum because kuroda know amuro is NOC by calling him Bourbon (1017) so if kuroda is Rum Bourbon should be dead by now because even vermouth said that the BO is trying to get rid of NOC (898) so no reason for amuro to be alive by now if kuroda again is rum.

Also it obvious that wakasa rumi is the jodie of vermouth arc which means she is red herring, because rumi keep trying to get her shogi piece even by knocking out amuro (1054) and if she is rum there no reason for her to keep haneda shogi piece because it will be crucial evidence that show rumi is Rum,hence why she is obviously not rum.

So in my opinion, wakita kanenori is the most likely suspect to be Rum and there a hint to that in chapter 1027 wakita said that he would love to have a eye that can identify a traitor which implying that someone betrayed wakita and probally it amuro because after amuro got another message by rum in the black bunny case to gather information on shinichi,we never seen amuro replying to rum or getting a message again by rum which imply that rum thinking amuro is betraying him.
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andi2ews

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by andi2ews »

KingWilson wrote:
Yesterday, 6:34 am

In my opinion,pretty unlikely for Kuroda to be Rum because kuroda know amuro is NOC by calling him Bourbon (1017) so if kuroda is Rum Bourbon should be dead by now because even vermouth said that the BO is trying to get rid of NOC (898) so no reason for amuro to be alive by now if kuroda again is rum.
the fact that Kuroda calls Amuro "bourbon" does not imply that he knows that Amuro is NOC. This is your, and many others, interpretations.
I think that if he is really aware of his role he surely had call him Zero and not bourbon. If he really wanted to hurry up him to do the job for the BO, he would have said it more clearly. But Kuroda ask him only to make a report, probably because he is from organization. Infact Amuro seems worried about that request.
Anyway even if i suppose Kuroda is a BO, i don't think he is RUM. RUM only text Amuro while Kuroda call him directly. Since Kuroda is pretty conscious about Conan Skill and since he works with Bourbon i thought that maybe he could be vermouth in disguise. This could explain the relationship between Amuro and Kuroda and also explains why Kuroda is well informed about Conan and also explain why Kuroda is informed about Haneda Kohji case. it could be totally wrong but i prefer this to Tsutomu Akai in disguise theory, that has no evidence that point in that direction.
KingWilson

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by KingWilson »

andi2ews wrote:
Yesterday, 8:49 am
KingWilson wrote:
Yesterday, 6:34 am

In my opinion,pretty unlikely for Kuroda to be Rum because kuroda know amuro is NOC by calling him Bourbon (1017) so if kuroda is Rum Bourbon should be dead by now because even vermouth said that the BO is trying to get rid of NOC (898) so no reason for amuro to be alive by now if kuroda again is rum.
the fact that Kuroda calls Amuro "bourbon" does not imply that he knows that Amuro is NOC. This is your, and many others, interpretations.
I think that if he is really aware of his role he surely had call him Zero and not bourbon. If he really wanted to hurry up him to do the job for the BO, he would have said it more clearly. But Kuroda ask him only to make a report, probably because he is from organization. Infact Amuro seems worried about that request.
Anyway even if i suppose Kuroda is a BO, i don't think he is RUM. RUM only text Amuro while Kuroda call him directly. Since Kuroda is pretty conscious about Conan Skill and since he works with Bourbon i thought that maybe he could be vermouth in disguise. This could explain the relationship between Amuro and Kuroda and also explains why Kuroda is well informed about Conan and also explain why Kuroda is informed about Haneda Kohji case. it could be totally wrong but i prefer this to Tsutomu Akai in disguise theory, that has no evidence that point in that direction.
I agree with your point that it not 100% confirm that kuroda know amuro is NOC in manga but recall Conan Movie Zero the Enforcer where there was a short moment where kuroda was saying something toa amuro in a phone call and it isnt clear what kuroda was saying because it was muted for unknown reason for like 3 sec and many people conclude it is Bourbon that kuroda said in the movie. And after zero movie in file 1017 kuroda also called amuro Bourbon.

I know movie is not canon but recall also the movie sniper from another dimension where subaru okiya after shooting the culprit call james black with his voice changer choker which is not canon yet in the manga at the time but was already reveal in the movie.

So i think it the same thing for this stuff and the reason why many people say kuroda know amuro is noc in manga because of zero the enforcer movie.

Also in my opinion, the reason why kuroda not calling amuro Zero maybe because kuroda was asking "about that matter" which might imply it was Bourbon report on kudo shinichi and because it about BO stuff, kuroda called him bourbon and not zero.
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andi2ews

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by andi2ews »

KingWilson wrote:
Yesterday, 9:20 am


I agree with your point that it not 100% confirm that kuroda know amuro is NOC in manga but recall Conan Movie Zero the Enforcer where there was a short moment where kuroda was saying something toa amuro in a phone call and it isnt clear what kuroda was saying because it was muted for unknown reason for like 3 sec and many people conclude it is Bourbon that kuroda said in the movie. And after zero movie in file 1017 kuroda also called amuro Bourbon.

I know movie is not canon but recall also the movie sniper from another dimension where subaru okiya after shooting the culprit call james black with his voice changer choker which is not canon yet in the manga at the time but was already reveal in the movie.

So i think it the same thing for this stuff and the reason why many people say kuroda know amuro is noc in manga because of zero the enforcer movie.

i think that Gosho used the film to introduce kuroda's phrase in chapter 1017. Is probably that Kuroda said "bourbon" too in the film but it was censored to insert this in the manga series.
KingWilson wrote:
Yesterday, 9:20 am
Also in my opinion, the reason why kuroda not calling amuro Zero maybe because kuroda was asking "about that matter" which might imply it was Bourbon report on kudo shinichi and because it about BO stuff, kuroda called him bourbon and not zero.
If you are saying that Kuroda call him Bourbon to keep a low profile then it would be even more suspicious for BO, because they might find out that someone else outside the organization call him bourbon.
Last edited by andi2ews on May 25th, 2020, 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
KingWilson

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by KingWilson »

Also i want to discuss the latest development in Rum arc related to haneda kohji dying message, i think it safe to conclude that the dying message Carasuma was made by wakasa rumi?

It like andi2ews pointed out too that there was two flashback memories of haneda by kuroda and rumi and it pretty logical to say kuroda came first and then rumi, and the fact that rumi knew something about karasuma by calling him black,sly and conspirator (1051) so maybe rumi knew too that karasuma is boss of BO that why she made the dying message have the anagram of Carasuma after she found out that haneda is dead.

And also why rumi want to keep her shogi piece even go far by knocking out amuro (1054) maybe because rumi want to tell us that the dying message only related to the mirror and not shogi that why she has to take the shogi piece in kohji palm.

If the shogi piece was found at kohji palm, then the dying message will not have the anagram of Carasuma, but if the shogi is taken and like rumi predicted some people like yusaku and akai will think the dying message is Carasuma (1008) that why she must keep haneda shogi pieces at all cost so that people like tsutomu akai also that investigate haneda case conclude that BO was involved by carasuma anagram.

And i think rumi plan on telling other people that BO was involved in haneda case has worked pretty well though even conan now said that karasuma is the boss that responsible for shrinking his body in conan mind (1051).

So my conclusion is that haneda dying message is made by wakasa rumi to put frame on Carasuma as the boss of BO and it is necessary for rumi to take the shogi piece in haneda palm so that the anagram will only be Carasuma.

What do you guys think?
KingWilson

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by KingWilson »

andi2ews wrote:
Yesterday, 10:06 am

If you are saying that Kuroda call him Bourbon to keep a low profile then it would be even more suspicious for BO, because they might find out that someone else outside the organization call him bourbon.
Yeah you right andi,then maybe kuroda is BO also indeed like you said but i dont think kuroda is vermouth lol because kuroda has large figure and vermouth has small figure and also kuroda eye injury is real though there no way vermouth would disguise as kuroda, it better if vermouth disguise as wakasa rumi which is mtx theory.

Also in your opinion Andi, who do you think is Rum though?
I agree with your reasoning too that kuroda is not Rum because Rum would just text amuro and not calling him to tell bourbon to make his report.
vaibhavgupte

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by vaibhavgupte »

KingWilson wrote:
Yesterday, 6:34 am
Regre wrote:
Yesterday, 6:13 am
Regarding Rumi, I agree with the consensus on her not being Rum. However, both her intelligence and motives are interesting to me. Whether she is NoC or BO, I think her status in either is likely high.
Currently, I am suspecting Kuroda to be the most likely candidate for being Rum. But in files 987-989, she gave the clue to both Conan and Kuroda for the case's solution. If Kuroda were to be Rum, it would mean Rumi is someone who could outwit BO's second in command. This is assuming that Kuroda is used to detective stuff ofc.
Maybe Rumi is someone big herself in someway...
In my opinion,pretty unlikely for Kuroda to be Rum because kuroda know amuro is NOC by calling him Bourbon (1017) so if kuroda is Rum Bourbon should be dead by now because even vermouth said that the BO is trying to get rid of NOC (898) so no reason for amuro to be alive by now if kuroda again is rum.

Also it obvious that wakasa rumi is the jodie of vermouth arc which means she is red herring, because rumi keep trying to get her shogi piece even by knocking out amuro (1054) and if she is rum there no reason for her to keep haneda shogi piece because it will be crucial evidence that show rumi is Rum,hence why she is obviously not rum.

So in my opinion, wakita kanenori is the most likely suspect to be Rum and there a hint to that in chapter 1027 wakita said that he would love to have a eye that can identify a traitor which implying that someone betrayed wakita and probally it amuro because after amuro got another message by rum in the black bunny case to gather information on shinichi,we never seen amuro replying to rum or getting a message again by rum which imply that rum thinking amuro is betraying him.
the reaction on bourbons face when he heared kuroda
is definitely not of confidante but the most feared enemy.
this kuroda and bourbon hardly seen to confide anything
in each other. the kouji haneda file kuroda was looking
alone . and when bourbon remembered kouji haneda case
he didnt remember kuroda.
we know that kuroda has high chance of being present at
kouji murder site. yet he didnt tell him details
even though he is in bo undercover for psb.
if he told details, bourbon should have haneda case memory from kuroda not from psb cold case files.
this rules out possibility of him being npa advisor of
bourbon. ( and even if he is npa advisor , more likely he
is bo agent waiting to kill amuro)
so why does he still call him bourbon?
coz he is rum.


also regarding bourbon , one peculiar thing
where bourbon lives or what work he
does even gin doesnt know.
only vermouth and rum know.
how bo is allowing him to roam
freely without bug.
coz he may not tell anything imp to rum.
but if his npa advisor is rum.
hence he gets info from him.
thus he is being monitored by him.

now why not kill him directly.
two reasons:
1) there might be other harmful agents to bo
like shuichi and kudo whose info only bourbon has
who will give it to npa advisor kuroda
2)if he gets killed kuroda cover maybe blown in npa
and he may nor get info about japanese police.
this high post is convenient for rum. so he is waiting to
kill bourbon along with all others who are supposedly
dead but kurida doubts: shuich, shinichi and shiho
conan whose info only bourbon knows .

also why bo may have suspected bourbon.
now when scotch died his phone was
not given to bo??
now bo know he was secret police.
dont they doubt some other bo
is secret police undercover who took
scotch phone.
it could only be shuichi or bourbon.
shuichi was therefore suspected by gin.
but later he was confirmed to be fbi.
that makes bourbon more likely to
be undercover psb.

this explains why kuroda was initially in nagano
to investigate scotch brother so he could find
other traitor i.e. bourbon.

I believe in black bunny case when amuro shuichi met
they discussed bourbons fake death to escape
npa advisor kuroda who is rum.
otherwise why bourbon hide kudo info from rum.
he also must have some vested interest.
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andi2ews

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by andi2ews »

KingWilson wrote:
Yesterday, 10:34 am

Also in your opinion Andi, who do you think is Rum though?
I agree with your reasoning too that kuroda is not Rum because Rum would just text amuro and not calling him to tell bourbon to make his report.
i think and hope that RUM is Chikara Katsumata. And i also think Chikara could be Wakita Kanenori
and you?
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