Mafia! Mafia! Mafia! Character Role Discussions

[Kleene Onigiri]

Good XD

Well, you can try to read through it maybe :V someday XD Since there are ideas that were forgotten too XD But those ideas aren't bad just because they were forgotten XD (like treasure hunting)

viewtopic.php?p=498634#p498634

Here it starts after Akos Round. Was mostly about inactives and the lethargy.
Later on, observe and stake-out was discussed.

[Schillok]

Well, I prefer the suggestion that detain happens AFTER all other actions during the night. I think that would help to adjust that ability to a more fair level. (Which was suggested befoe already BTW.)

About the other things:
1) The FBI with observe or stake-out are already good. They usually force the BO to claim adult roles (hard time for Vodka or Calvados to claim trickster or protector when all of them are teenagers), make for a good chance to find allies (non-adults) or possible suspects (adult = higher chance the player is a BO). The only problem is that their ability is rather simple and easy. It is a great role for beginners since they are easy to use and get used to the game AND be useful. I think we should keep simple roles as that.

2) I guess changing Akai might be a good idea. Maybe make him kill the target of leg-breaking if he gets killed? That way Akai is guaranteed to take another player with him, no matter when and how he is killed.

3) Yeah, Kazuha is fine. She is unique in a way since she is the only one that can safe a player from APTX, which is a very powerful ability. Also, reducing the vote for one player gives her something to do the rest of the time and can decide about victory or defeat late in the game.

4) Something should be done about Tequilla and/or Pisco. I guess Piscos erase evidence is rather new and might make him stronger how he is played, but when the other BOs got their killing abilities, Pisco got nothing. (Well, he can transfer his erase to other members kills multiple times now (if he gets to kill often), but compared to the other BO killing abilities this does feel a bit lacking. Also, still the problem with Tequilla: He can be deciding late in the game (if he is still alive) with both his ability and his kill-ability to stop townies from voting, but until the BO gets there he is pretty much useless. Again, I am not 100% sure what should be done about him (give him confuse, maybe?) but I feel he could need some ability for early in the game.

[miikosan]

For the stakeout SI, why don't we make it a day ability so the stakeouters can use them after they got their results.

Tequila: maybe give him hinder (Kleene's suggested new ability?)

Pisco: I would make his erase evidence erase same crimes multiple times. Only 1 crime per night though. And no erase evidence of killings.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Uhm, well... I suggested a ability. But that somehow got drowned in the discussion :V (commi saw it tho <3)

RM by miiko xD

[Dus]

Toichi? Huh? Where? What? When?

[Kleene Onigiri]

^that was really old
Where toichi has some kind of black suitcase too if I remember correctly :V

[Dus]

That's from before my hiatus iirc.

[Akonyl]

Nerf the town! Nerf the town!

As long as it's an equal across-the-board nerfing, I do think that's what we should be doing, so we can try to add in less BO as well.


And yeah, my toichi suggestion was ages ago and not even fleshed out / thought about much so I'd suggest against putting him in for now.

Anyway, for detention: Rather than make it the end of the phase, make it happen the same time as House Arrest (or, directly after). The last thing we need is more exceptions, so grouping abilities up would help with that.

The SI for stakeout could be a day ability, yeah.

as to the suggested hindering ability for camel/jodie: I don't really see any inherent problem with the stake-out ability other than perhaps its strength, so I think it's better to think about fixing it rather than throwing out new abilities until we find one that sticks.

Though, if it's given to Tequila, that might work. Would it replace frighten or would he have "frighten OR hinder"?

[Schillok]

The question is... why would we need a "special investigate for stake-out"?
I am against having too man town roles being able to do too much, especially when it is about about discovering tricks that the BO set up for them. If the BO already knows what they are supposed to do to fool a certain player, they should be able to get away with it. Multiple townies together would be able to see through it.
So the only time when it would matter is right at the start, when the formation of a town alliance is still in its beginning. And this is where the BO HAS to have the chance to mess around with the townies that were so foolish to let their plans being known by a BO member.

Beside, all role with stake-out also have other abilities that make up for the rather situational nature of that ability. FBI can observe (which is a much better way to find allies in the first place, while stake-out has its uses once they are in a a bigger group). Which leaves Takagi and Chiba who have their own advantages (harder to poison, arrest ability to turn around games) and who don't need to get another ability to make them stronger. (IMO)


@Tequilla:
Well, if we give anything to Tequilla I think I would prefer it to still have frighten. However I want to make sure he does not overshadow Vodka when that happens - I am not sure how strong that new hinder-ability will be like, but I see a wide range of applications for it for the BO, both offensive and defensive.
And I would think we should not give the town access to it. Because it is yet another way to make a character unkillable during the night, even by the snipers which at least get through healing and protection.
Also, we should consider making it not just "fail" abilities, but rather have the same effect as an abroad traveler: Most abilities will get the same reply as if the user was tricked, but others - like investigate and so on (usually abilities with more than one target) will simply report a "false" (or no special reply like for example for slander).

[Akonyl]

I'm not of the opinion that stake-out/observers really need to be made better either, but I'm just tryin to suggest something that isn't quite as powerful as identifying BS actions as BS like jd-'s suggesting for the people who believe otherwise.

However, a SI for stakeout isn't all that bad, as the intent of the BS was that one BO player could fake actions as if they'd done them. With the SI change, they would still be able to do that, however if PT told Jd she was gonna heal him, and then Kleene BSed a heal on Jd-, that'd screw over a stakeouter where it wouldn't screw over an investigator.

I do feel though that the prevalence of past-action checking is far too high and needs to be added as little as possible / removed a bit, though. I'd suggest if the SI change was added to stakeout, that you could only investigate actions from the previous night.

For the Tequila Hinder, perhaps if he's given it, only give him a limited number of uses of it? But yeah, if used it should just treat all the players as being discombobulated, aside from abilities like investigate.

(Though as to you mentioning snipers, I would say Korn should at least be able to get through it, as he's anti-discombobulation which this basically is)

[Kleene Onigiri]

why give hinder a limited amount? You think it's that powerful? :V


Also, pofa had the idea to give yamamura "confuse OR hinder". And for that maybe remove detention for him.

[Akonyl]

why give hinder a limited amount? You think it's that powerful? :V


Also, pofa had the idea to give yamamura "confuse OR hinder". And for that maybe remove detention for him.

in the hands of the BO when the BO isn't intending to kill that target, it's basically a discombobulate that also discombobulates people using actions on the target, making it a super-discombobulate, which makes vodka's pale in comparison.

Alternately, you could give Hinder to Vodka and Discombobulate to Tequila.

I disagree to giving it to yamamura though, because as it's stated it's effectively the same thing as detention (a discombobufrighten as schillok loves to say), and if we're going through the trouble of nerfing detention it doesn't make much sense to me to give yamamura such a similar ability to the pre-nerfed version anyway.

[Kleene Onigiri]

Hinder is different tho.
Because you won't know for sure who will use a ability on that person. If you're lucky, you could trick 5 people. If you're unlucky, you could trick none at all D:
With discombobulate you can be sure that this person will be tricked for sure and won't use a night action if he has one :V

[Commi-Ninja]

I have a question about hinder, concerning investigate.  If person X has Investigate 5 and only one includes person Y in any form, and person Y is hindered, does that investigation come up false, discombob'd, or do they all fail...?

[miikosan]

I will try to add Toichi then.
Anyone give me a brief summary of what he is?

And I agree with Kleene about swapping discombobulate to tequila and hinder for vodka.

Stakeout SI seems fine.

@Commi: it should just say false for that particular investigate.