Ai + Conan

[Melissa]

@Girl19

I don't know why you're talking about formalities here because it's.. off-topic again!
Anyhow, I don't consider Ran as a guardian to Conan because she's not responsible.

Well, I think I don't understand what you mean about responsible.
She isn't exactly an adult but she will be adult soon and that's a social responsability for her to take care of Conan.
So maybe I missed something in the explanation.

Okay.. and what does this have to do with the topic??

I just tried to explain you why I told all this stuff in my last message. That's all.

And just to let you know: just because I disagree with you or with someone else, it doesn't mean that I am impolite. Did I insult you or something? No. So I'm not impolite, I'm just being frank and speaking my mind. I didn't mean to offend you or anything.

I'm not talking especially about you. But I still think people have sometimes strong reactions because they fell safe behind their monitor.
And as I said earlier:
"Would you get so easily angry at someone just for that IRL.
Well of course you will say yes. And I don't mind. But for me your answer just sounds too strong for what it is.
Ok, sorry if I misunderstood. "

I don't think you understood what I meant, again.
I said that, in my opinion, it's obvious that Aoyama introduced Haibara because he wanted to add something new to the story: a love triangle.

Ok, I see. But in that way what about the fact he didn't choose the volume when Ai was introduced?
And what about this point:

I think that's not true. And the reason why I affirm that is:
when a manga create a character for a love triangle which doesn't appear at the beginning of the plot AND which is not the main plot, this is a command of the editor!!
You had a similar case with the creation of Heiji: on volume 10, Aoyama planed to introduce Haibara for the first time but his editors insisted to wait a little more and they asked Aoyama to create a rival for Shinichi.
But Shiho/Haibara isn't a command. The author told about Haibara in the manga when her sister died (we can see her shadow). This is totally related to the main plot with the mib. That's the reason I can't  accept the explanation "Haibara was created because he wanted to do a love triangle". If that was so, there is absolutely no reason for Aoyama not to have introduce her sooner in the manga.

I think you read it but I don't understand what you think about the last part of my explanation.

of course she has one of the most important roles in the main plot.

I would be very glad to hear why you think her role is the most important. Does everybody agree with this assertion?

However, Aoyama could have used Gin or another existing or non-existing male or even female character to do that.

For the most important role? Well, their role are totally different.

But, he introduced Haibara, a young female scientist who will become Conan's ally and then friend. He even created a lot of oh-so-cute moments for those two; which he didn't do for Vermouth or Akemi or Rena, etc. That's why I believe he did intend to give her that role too.

Well, I think he started to create these cute moments between them after her introduction. You have many fan service scene since Haibara started to become popular. But I'm not sure Aoyama thought about this love triangle point at the beginning.
After all, one of the reason he created Kazuha was because the editors asked him to introduce another character in order to erase the ambiguity of the love triangle relationship "Ran-Shinichi/Conan-Heiji". That sounds pretty strange the edition company would change so suddenly its strategy, isn't it?

@ James

I think so too since it´s the same concept for Conan/Shinichi. The life as Conan changed him for the better i say, the same counts for Ai/Shiho so i want both of them to return to their true *new* selfs.
But why would you dislike Ai more when Gosho decides for her to die cause dunno, to save Conan/Shinichi, Ran or Agasa or the kids? I would be sad for her since she could have a great developement as a chara, but disliking cause of that? I don´t get it, maybe it´s cause of the english speech.

Because I started to see good points in her. For me there is still a hope to save her. I don't like most of her choice in her actual life. She can have her personal reason and her fears, I totally desagree most of her decisions. I said, I feel she is just failing in her life. But she started to change in a more positive way and I liked it. But if she dies, that means all this evolution/tehes efforts would have been in vain. So for me, it's like she wouldn't have change at all. So I would probably return to my previous opinion of her, a worse opinion.
Well, but I said, this is just the way I feel about this character.

I know most of the people loves her and have good reasons for that. That's not a problem at all.
I have never been attracted by "mysterious character" nor by strong THANATOS aura characters. And I think Haibara, with her fears of death and her escaping behaviour has this strong THANATOS aura in the DC world.

[Abs.]

Hate to intrude on this fantastic multi-way vitriol/misunderstanding fest, but... GUYS I THINK AI + CONAN IS CUTE DO YOU THINK IT'S CUTE

[mangaluva]

Hate to intrude on this fantastic multi-way vitriol/misunderstanding fest, but... GUYS I THINK AI + CONAN IS CUTE DO YOU THINK IT'S CUTE

OMG YES IT'S SO ADORABLE AND ANGSTY

[Melissa]

I have a stupid question... is there a difference in the english fandom between :

Conan + Ai
and
Conan x Ai ?

[mangaluva]

Conan+Ai=AiCon
ConanxAi=babies 

seriously, no. the "+" just means "and" and the "x" just means "love", so they have essentially the same meaning. It's just a matter of personal preference.

[Melissa]

ok, cause on japanese sites, you can have the difference between :

Ai x Co = love
Ai > Co = Ai loves Conan (one side love)
Ai + Co = friendship

Of course this is available for all couplings (except BL but that's another topic so...)

Thanks for the answer.

[Kor]

Ai > Co = Ai loves Conan (one side love)

that would be a mistake in mathematical terms. It should mean that Ai is better than Conan (by better I would say more awesome, but that's me...)

[Girl19]

Well, I think I don't understand what you mean about responsible.
She isn't exactly an adult but she will be adult soon and that's a social responsability for her to take care of Conan.
So maybe I missed something in the explanation.

Well, this is just my opinion: Ran isn't responsible since she can't even keep Conan next to her when there's a case going on. We have seen her, many, many times, being too busy following "what was going on" and then realizing that Conan was gone, that he disappeared. That's why I think she doesn't fulfill her "guardian" role very much - that's why I don't consider her as Conan's guardian.

I just tried to explain you why I told all this stuff in my last message. That's all.

What does this..
>
.. have to do with your last mesage? I thought it was directed to me for some reason.

I'm not talking especially about you. But I still think people have sometimes strong reactions because they fell safe behind their monitor.

lol Actually some people have even stronger reactions in real life than in front of a monitor; believe me.

Ok, I see. But in that way what about the fact he didn't choose the volume when Ai was introduced?
And what about this point:

I think that's not true. And the reason why I affirm that is:
when a manga create a character for a love triangle which doesn't appear at the beginning of the plot AND which is not the main plot, this is a command of the editor!!
You had a similar case with the creation of Heiji: on volume 10, Aoyama planed to introduce Haibara for the first time but his editors insisted to wait a little more and they asked Aoyama to create a rival for Shinichi.
But Shiho/Haibara isn't a command. The author told about Haibara in the manga when her sister died (we can see her shadow). This is totally related to the main plot with the mib. That's the reason I can't  accept the explanation "Haibara was created because he wanted to do a love triangle". If that was so, there is absolutely no reason for Aoyama not to have introduce her sooner in the manga.

I think you read it but I don't understand what you think about the last part of my explanation.

I agree with you, but I don't see how the fact of introducing Haibara later or sooner would have changed anything. I mean that, even if Aoyama had iontroduced Haibara way sooner than he actually did, he would still have given her the role of a "love triangle angle" (besides her role related to the main BO plot, of course).

I'll try to explain how I see it: when he created Haibara, it was like "killing 2 birds with one stone" (or in french: "faire d'une pierre deux coups"). The 2 birds here are: the BO plot + the love triangle. While, if he had put someone else instead of Haibara, he would have filled the BO plot role but not the love triangle one.

I would be very glad to hear why you think her role is the most important. Does everybody agree with this assertion?

I said, and I quote: "one of the most important roles". I striked through "one of" because I think, indeed, that without the role of Haibara, the story wouldn't have gone anywhere. Seriously, anime-wise, after watching the first 3 or 4 episodes, you can almost skip all the other episodes and start watching at episode 128-129 (Haibara's appearance, preceded by Akemi's death). I also think Haibara's role is crucial because, as I said before, she has 2 different roles: BO former member and Conan's ally (she's the link between both "worlds"). But that's just my opinion.

For the most important role? Well, their role are totally different.

He could have used Gin or any other character just for the BO plot role, not for the most important role, of course.
Well, this is related to my previous reply about Ai's role - I hope I explained what I meant better now.

Well, I think he started to create these cute moments between them after her introduction. You have many fan service scene since Haibara started to become popular. But I'm not sure Aoyama thought about this love triangle point at the beginning.

For me, he tought about the love triangle thing before introducing Haibara, no matter when he intended to introduce her, sooner or later. Because, ever since her very first appearance (episode 129), there were some cute AiCon scenes. More AiCon scenes are in episode 130, as well. So, the "cute AiCon scenes" were there since the beginning, ever since Ai was introduced.

[Melissa]

Well, this is just my opinion: Ran isn't responsible since she can't even keep Conan next to her when there's a case going on. We have seen her, many, many times, being too busy following "what was going on" and then realizing that Conan was gone, that he disappeared. That's why I think she doesn't fulfill her "guardian" role very much - that's why I don't consider her as Conan's guardian.

Ok, so now I understand what you meant. I won't say I agree with your feeling but this is a quite explanation in fact.
I think Ran is responsible but Conan has just some reactions differents from the others children of his age and that's why Ran can't always check Conan's behaviour. I also think Conan choose especially the good moment to run away from her look and do what he wants to do.
That may not convince you I guess because we have now a lot of investigations in DC and Ran's behaviour is still the same but that's enough for me. I just take it as a fact.

I agree with you, but I don't see how the fact of introducing Haibara later or sooner would have changed anything. I mean that, even if Aoyama had iontroduced Haibara way sooner than he actually did, he would still have given her the role of a "love triangle angle" (besides her role related to the main BO plot, of course).

I'll try to explain how I see it: when he created Haibara, it was like "killing 2 birds with one stone" (or in french: "faire d'une pierre deux coups"). The 2 birds here are: the BO plot + the love triangle. While, if he had put someone else instead of Haibara, he would have filled the BO plot role but not the love triangle one.

In my case, when I think about how Aoyama is working, I'm always thinking of the editor's needs.
So if you plan to introduce a love triangle in a shonen manga (not a shojo -love story- manga), this is usually on purpose.
Actually we have a pretty good example of love triangle in DC between Takagi-Sato-Shiratori.
The way Aoyama developed this triangle is really different the way it is in the case Ai-Conan-Ran.
It was clearly said in the manga that Shiratori and Takagi were rivals.
For Ai and Ran, you only start to have informations about it in volume 26 (when Ai is happy that Shinichi couldn't propose to Ran) and when Yukiko mentions about Ai's feeling (which Conan doesn't understand at all).
Before that, you may have cute scene but that can be - IN AOYAMA POINT OF VIEW - just friendship.

I'm pretty sure that introducing a love triangle in a love comedy manga is a good point to create new fans and so, new incomes.
And that's why I think there is absolutely no meaning for the editors and Aoyama  to wait more than 15 volumes (from the shadow picture to her first appearance) to introduce the love triangle. And to ask Aoyama to introduce a rival character in volume 10 instead of this love triangle character.

For these reasons, I don't think Aoyama thought of the love triangle from the beginning.
Of course, now you have the love triangle. But even if I understand your point of view, I'm not so sure it's true.
And for what I read about Aoyama's feeling on the AixCo subject (in the several interviews I read), I really don't think he thought about the love stuff when he created her.

I said, and I quote: "one of the most important roles". I striked through "one of" because I think, indeed, that without the role of Haibara, the story wouldn't have gone anywhere. Seriously, anime-wise, after watching the first 3 or 4 episodes, you can almost skip all the other episodes and start watching at episode 128-129 (Haibara's appearance, preceded by Akemi's death). I also think Haibara's role is crucial because, as I said before, she has 2 different roles: BO former member and Conan's ally (she's the link between both "worlds"). But that's just my opinion.

Ok. I see. That's pretty right you can skip about... 90% of the anime episodes and 80% of the manga files without missing anything from the main plot. That's why you also have an "only BO story" volume who was released last year in Japan. Nothing new. They just skiped the non BO related files...

[James Rye]

@Girl 19 and melissa

I gonna quote Abs.:

Hate to intrude on this fantastic multi-way vitriol/misunderstanding fest, but...

So.....
Erm, may i interrupt your nice discussion without your sharp tongues ripping me apart? Thanks in advance.

I dunno about this stuff if Gosho intended to bring Ai up in the story not only as *link* and *ally* but also as *triangle love whatever thing*, but now we have alot of Aicon fans and more fans who likes Ranichi. So who cares about why the editors really wanted to not take Ai into vol 10 but 18 and goes for Heiji and then created Kazuha to avoid Yaoi-stuff (they fail´d btw)?
I understand both of your argumtations, both are logical and comprehensible but they get us nowhere right now (-my feeling, can be wrong ), so do me a favour and stop giving me worries cause i have a feeling i´m watching a bich-i mean a firm discussion with no *winner*. be nice to each other and use a smiley more often.

of course she has one of the most important roles in the main plot.

I would be very glad to hear why you think her role is the most important. Does everybody agree with this assertion?

How about second most important role? The most important has Conan/Shinichi of cource.^g^

But, he introduced Haibara, a young female scientist who will become Conan's ally and then friend. He even created a lot of oh-so-cute moments for those two; which he didn't do for Vermouth or Akemi or Rena, etc. That's why I believe he did intend to give her that role too.

Well, I think he started to create these cute moments between them after her introduction. You have many fan service scene since Haibara started to become popular. But I'm not sure Aoyama thought about this love triangle point at the beginning.
After all, one of the reason he created Kazuha was because the editors asked him to introduce another character in order to erase the ambiguity of the love triangle relationship "Ran-Shinichi/Conan-Heiji". That sounds pretty strange the edition company would change so suddenly its strategy, isn't it?

I think the *cute moments* started too early (they get lost after a while T.T) for being something he didn´t thought of the impact they could have. I´m pretty sure he did know what results he´ll get with doing so. He created the possiblity of Ai and Conan after all though it´s *fandom* and not *offical* (yet, so i do hope 8) ). The main point of Haibara is the *ally who´s a traitor to BO and also his one and only (safe haha) possibility to get his old body back*, the *OHMYGOSHO, they look so cute together and are so cool and all* is a spicy dip to make it *more interesting*.
My opinion of this whole *Is Ai meant to be a possible second love interest of Conan/SHinichi or not*.^^

@ James

I think so too since it´s the same concept for Conan/Shinichi. The life as Conan changed him for the better i say, the same counts for Ai/Shiho so i want both of them to return to their true *new* selfs.
But why would you dislike Ai more when Gosho decides for her to die cause dunno, to save Conan/Shinichi, Ran or Agasa or the kids? I would be sad for her since she could have a great developement as a chara, but disliking cause of that? I don´t get it, maybe it´s cause of the english speech.

Because I started to see good points in her. For me there is still a hope to save her. I don't like most of her choice in her actual life. She can have her personal reason and her fears, I totally desagree most of her decisions. I said, I feel she is just failing in her life. But she started to change in a more positive way and I liked it. But if she dies, that means all this evolution/tehes efforts would have been in vain. So for me, it's like she wouldn't have change at all. So I would probably return to my previous opinion of her, a worse opinion.
Well, but I said, this is just the way I feel about this character.

I know most of the people loves her and have good reasons for that. That's not a problem at all.
I have never been attracted by "mysterious character" nor by strong THANATOS aura characters. And I think Haibara, with her fears of death and her escaping behaviour has this strong THANATOS aura in the DC world.

*Save her* is a bit hard to her, i mean she didn´t had that much of a choice when she joined the BO since they took her in as a baby.^^"
But you´re right, in one and many ways Conan/Shinichi, Agasa, the DBs and Ran *save her* but that´s was already talked through three or four times by now.
Also about *just failing*, in which way exactly? Her past where she did all that merely to see and possible to protect her sister? Her betrayal at the BO? Her cold and harsh character where she didn´t care that much about the kids at the beginning until they and Conan/Agasa starts to attach to her heart? Her falling in love with someone who she possible will never tell him that cause she has no chance at all? Her suicidal way of thinking out of fear of something we don´t fully know about?
We don´t know that much about her (such misfortune~) to give a 100% sure sample of *failing her live*.
But you´re right when she dies it´s the same as everything that happend about/around/cause of her would be like.... a candy before death gets his hands on her, not very comforting. bUt even when she dies (when and however) she would have changed in comparsion with her old self, right?
Whats a THANATOS?

[Callid]

(I won't make any quotes. You lose every bit of an overview)

I think it's clear we have a love triangle now, at least after the "thing-on-my-face-episode", with Ai and Ran loving Conan and Conan loving Ran without noticing Haibara's feelings.
The deciding question is how far the story has been thought out at the beginning. Was this love story planned in ep.1? Was Haibara planned at all? Was Vermouth planned? Heiji? Was perhaps even the end, the end we haven't seen until now, planned?
Or did he just let the whole thing develop and thought only, let's say, about 100 ep. ahead?
Because if it was planned, Haibara is indeed a serious rival to Ran and this point may take a harsh impact in the story (What will happen if Ai gets really jealous of her? Is Ai going to turn "evil" again? Will Conan finally have to solve Ran's murder? *is horrified*).
If it was not planned, it's clear that the whole thing will end with a ShinRan-ending. This new development of ConanxAi will most likely never be strong enough to stop the relationship that's going on from the first episode (Don't forget the efforts Shinichi makes to get close to Ran (Desp. Rev.) and the fact that Ran does not leave him, no matter how long he's missing).
I would suggest to call the whole thing about what will happen to Ai at the end the "Ai end problem" (or, for the fanatic ConanxAi-fans, the Ran end problem^^) form now on, separated from the triangle problem about the existence of a triangle.
Because you guys tend to discuss in both problems at the same time and are talking at crossed purposes.
Just a suggestion...

[Schillok]

I agree with you, but I don't see how the fact of introducing Haibara later or sooner would have changed anything. I mean that, even if Aoyama had iontroduced Haibara way sooner than he actually did, he would still have given her the role of a "love triangle angle" (besides her role related to the main BO plot, of course).

I'll try to explain how I see it: when he created Haibara, it was like "killing 2 birds with one stone" (or in french: "faire d'une pierre deux coups"). The 2 birds here are: the BO plot + the love triangle. While, if he had put someone else instead of Haibara, he would have filled the BO plot role but not the love triangle one.

This is just how you want to see it. I think for the majority of the readers consider Ai as a link to the BO and another ally for Conan who knows about his true idendity.
If he wanted a love triangle.... he would have created a link between Shiho and Shinichi - a meeting in the past, a shared memory, anything. But he never did that.
The "cute moments" that some people like to interpret as "love" is a result from Ais respect for Conan, the guilt she feels, Conans protectiveness for everyone and the fact that they can talk to each other without hiding their true identities.
If Gosho wants to include Conan in a love triangle he should have used Ayumi, not Ai. At least she declared her love for him (However serious you want to accept her declaration of a 7 year old).

[Schillok]

I think it's clear we have a love triangle now, at least after the "thing-on-my-face-episode", with Ai and Ran loving Conan and Conan loving Ran without noticing Haibara's feelings.

Uhh... no. Seriously, that moment when Conan asked if he had something on his face was funny, right?
It was, and that was the intention when that scene was written and drawn and not to "prove that Ai loves Conan".

Even if you want to take that scene seriously, like if it was never intended as a joke: Conans exclaimation and his impression showed that he completly dismissed even the chance that "Ai is in love with him", right?
And remember the one who gave him the idea was his mother who likes loves to tease her Shin-chan, especially with things related to love. (Like with the "future daughter-in-law" declaration in New York.)

Otherwise... I can't remember a scene that "proves that Ai loves Conan". The relationship between the two is no "love" or "one-sided-love", it is what I described in my last post:

Ais respect for Conan, the guilt she feels, Conans protectiveness for everyone and the fact that they can talk to each other without hiding their true identities

So basically.... an (unusual) kind of friendship/feeling of responsibility.

[Kor]

This is just how you want to see it. I think for the majority of the readers consider Ai as a link to the BO and another ally for Conan who knows about his true idendity.
If he wanted a love triangle.... he would have created a link between Shiho and Shinichi - a meeting in the past, a shared memory, anything. But he never did that.

then there's no point. Ran - childhood friend who shares a part of Shinichi's past. Why would Gosho make another one have a part of his past? Haibara is the opposite from Ran. Haibara doesn't have any past with Shinichi and it fits very well if there is indeed a love triangle. in a romance the girls in the love triangle will NEVER be the same, for the fact they should be different. If one of the females has a past with the male, the other one shouldn't. Otherwise it's boring (btw, I'm not talking about Harem here)

The "cute moments" that some people like to interpret as "love" is a result from Ais respect for Conan, the guilt she feels, Conans protectiveness for everyone and the fact that they can talk to each other without hiding their true identities.

Haibara in episode 131 "I'm 18. just perfect for you." if Gosho didn't intend for ANYTHING to happen between the two, then he basically screwed up BIG TIME. writing such a line WILL make people think that she has something for Conan.

I'm not sure we can rely on every book in japan as well. Did Gosho write them? Did he say the truth? Many authors lie about their work.
Rowling said she thought about the whole 7 HP books while she was in the train. she also said her final chapter was in her safe since 1991 (or something like that) then, when Harry Potter wasn't popular, how the hell did she know she was going to use it? Did she close herself from the start and aimed exactly in only one direction since then? hard for me to believe.

If Gosho wants to include Conan in a love triangle he should have used Ayumi, not Ai. At least she declared her love for him (However serious you want to accept her declaration of a 7 year old).

Ayumi is a little girl who knows nothing about love. Fine, let's have a youth crush which means nothing. if Conan was going to consider something about Ayumi...I would hate him for sure.

[Girl19]

Ok, so now I understand what you meant. I won't say I agree with your feeling but this is a quite explanation in fact.
I think Ran is responsible but Conan has just some reactions differents from the others children of his age and that's why Ran can't always check Conan's behaviour. I also think Conan choose especially the good moment to run away from her look and do what he wants to do.
That may not convince you I guess because we have now a lot of investigations in DC and Ran's behaviour is still the same but that's enough for me. I just take it as a fact.

Well yes, you're right about the fact that Conan's behavior isn't like a normal 7-year-old behavior; and as you said, he probably waits for the right moment to just disappear. But what makes me think that Ran isn't responsible is probably the fact that even after all this time she still can't keep Conan in place. But it's not all Ran's fault so.. I won't blame only her.

In my case, when I think about how Aoyama is working, I'm always thinking of the editor's needs.
So if you plan to introduce a love triangle in a shonen manga (not a shojo -love story- manga), this is usually on purpose.
Actually we have a pretty good example of love triangle in DC between Takagi-Sato-Shiratori.
The way Aoyama developed this triangle is really different the way it is in the case Ai-Conan-Ran.
It was clearly said in the manga that Shiratori and Takagi were rivals.
For Ai and Ran, you only start to have informations about it in volume 26 (when Ai is happy that Shinichi couldn't propose to Ran) and when Yukiko mentions about Ai's feeling (which Conan doesn't understand at all).
Before that, you may have cute scene but that can be - IN AOYAMA POINT OF VIEW - just friendship.

It's true that the "Takagi-Sato-Shiratori" love triangle is more obvious than the "Ran-Shinichi/Conan-Ai" one. But I think that Aoyama wanted the second one to be subtle, elusive. It's true that he only made it kinda obvious until volume 26, but I think he gave us hints of Ai's feelings since the beginning, probably even since episode 130 (sorry, I forgot the file number).

Also, I don't think it's just friendship in Aoyama's point of view.. He made it clear that there's something, besides friendship, between Ai and Conan. For instance, we can see the difference between the relationship of Conan and the detective boys & the relationship of Conan and Ai. If there was nothing between them, then the AiCon fanbase wouldn't be this huge, right?

I'm pretty sure that introducing a love triangle in a love comedy manga is a good point to create new fans and so, new incomes.
And that's why I think there is absolutely no meaning for the editors and Aoyama  to wait more than 15 volumes (from the shadow picture to her first appearance) to introduce the love triangle. And to ask Aoyama to introduce a rival character in volume 10 instead of this love triangle character.

Maybe they were waiting for the right moment to introduce it.. I wish Aoyama could answer us! lol

For these reasons, I don't think Aoyama thought of the love triangle from the beginning.
Of course, now you have the love triangle. But even if I understand your point of view, I'm not so sure it's true.
And for what I read about Aoyama's feeling on the AixCo subject (in the several interviews I read), I really don't think he thought about the love stuff when he created her.

You probably read much more Aoyama interviews than I did.
I have to admit I didn't read many, so my opinion is only based on the few interviews I read + on what I see/sense from the manga.