Discussion thread: Detective Conan 972-974

[Kudo Shinchi]

By saying that if Jodie knew, she would've been fooled by Rei/Tooru/Bourbon as Scar Akai into revealing that Shuichi was alive, resulting in the plan being exposed and Hidemi/Rena/Kir being killed, he is essentially saying, "You're not up for this."

In this case, Gosho brooked no counter-argument to Shuichi's and Shinichi's/Conan's position that, if people aren't at their intellectual level, those people must be misled, deceived, and kept in the dark... even people who are FBI agents, and committed to fighting the BO.

Certainly Conan and Akai's actions can be interpreted that way, and certainly their behavior can be seen to carry such implications, but the notion that Akai and Conan actively believe this about the people around them strikes me as false. They often come across as jerks (and I really do wish Gosho would let the characters communicate more), but the whole "keep everything a secret" is just a general policy that people like Conan and Akai employ against everyone...including each other. Note that Conan never came out and told Akai his true identity, even though they are at this point close bodies watching each other' backs. Akai had to find out on his own. Does Conan not believe that a veteran FBI agent like Akai can keep his secret? Does he think revealing himself to one of his closest allies can carry any kind of risk for him? Does Conan believe that Akai is not on his "intellectual level" and therefore he must deceive him in matters pertaining to who he actually is? Probably not. But Conan doesn't tell Akai anyways, because Conan is leery of telling anyone his identity. If memory serve me right, the only two people he's willingly revealed himself to are Agasa and Eisuke. Whether or not Conan entrusts a character with a secret is not a judgment of that character's intelligence/competence. Akai is very much the same (he won't tell Conan anything about his family).

Besides, Akai, despite having good reason not to, entrusted his "return Kir to the Org" plan to Camel, which shows us that at the very least Akai sees Camel as someone who can keep a secret and successfully execute a complex operation. What I take away from Akai's refusal to tell any of his colleagues anything is not a patronizing opinion of them on his part, but of a general aversion to telling anyone anything that they don't absolutely have to know. Akai is capable of sharing secrets; he did so with James, and he eventually told Camel and Jodie the truth. But he was forced to in both cases, which makes him exactly like Conan. They have a general paranoia of telling anyone anything. I don't think that's a particular helpful or healthy mindset (and it's created some tension within Conan's character in recent years, as it makes him come across as an arrogant jerk even though his character arc is centered around becoming the exact opposite).

Thus, Gosho lowered Jodie's competency, and Andre's (compare how he was portrayed when Gosho was trying to mislead us into thinking he was a BO plant in the FBI to every case in which he appears, after that... in fact, do the same for Jodie—compare her appearances in which Gosho was trying to mislead us into thinking she was Vermouth, to her appearances after it was revealed that she was an FBI agent) to justify them being kept in the dark.

I have compared them...and my general impression is that they just seem like nicer people, which certainly makes them appear less threatening, but that doesn't equal less competent. Camel's flaws were established early on so his blunder in the Scarlet Prologue didn't come out of nowhere, and we see he still has his unmatched skills as a driver. Jodie was fine throughout the Kir arc and did well for most of the Bourbon arc aside from the debacle that was the Sakura Shrine case.

And what if it was because he didn't tell Andre about his fake death plan, that Andre messed up, in Scarlet Prologue? After all, Shinichi's/Conan's desire to keep them in the dark led to his seemingly—to them—random emphasis on Rikumichi Kusuda, leading to Andre's slip. He did say that it was on his mind because Shinichi/Conan brought it up.

Agreed. Here's an example of the drawbacks of keeping everything secret. Gosho only focused on the positive consequences of keeping Akai's death secret throughout the Bourbon arc, which created a one-sided portrayal of a rather complicated issue.

He violated chain of command when he didn't tell James that Rena/Kir was CIA agent Hidemi Hondo before the BO went after Haido Central Hospital, after Rikumichi Kusuda died. Instead, he went behind his superior's back and made his own plan—Gosho portrays this as justified... thus, it comes off that Shuichi should be in charge, not James.

Agreed, though that last line strikes me as extrapolating too far.

These days, it's not, FBI Vs BO—it's Shinichi/Conan and Shuichi Vs BO. Since Clash of Red and Black, the FBI have just been along for the ride of whatever plan Shinichi/Conan and Shuichi come up with. Shuichi and Jodie were working together during the Halloween Party case—since then? Shinichi/Conan has become Shuichi's partner. The FBI had a plan to get Vermouth during her arc. Now what plans do they have? Have they launched any offensives, since then, or since Black Impact? Not really.

Yeah, this bothers me. We haven't really had any confrontations on the scale of Clash ever since Akai's fake death. The focus has radically shrunk. Let me correct your statement: these days (well, years), it's Conan and Shuichi vs. Bourbon/Vermouth/Rum. No other BO members really feature prominently, which a confrontation that actually includes them would do wonders to rectify. This is an example of Conan's sheer length and case format interfering with a satisfying progression of the plot. The Bourbon arc's length, especially, has really made this a glaring issue. Since Gosho was determined to finish up the mystery of Akai's death and Bourbon's rivalry before anything else, the rest of the FBI and the BO were placed on the backburner. But it's precisely because this issue affects both sides that I don't see it as some kind of relegation of the FBI to Akai and Conan's awesomeness. The scale of the story has simply been rather narrow for several years now, revolving around a very limited number of characters.

Her Halloween Party case deduction was about Vermouth and her past, while confronting her. Her Scarlet Showdown deduction? About a plan concocted by her own allies that she'd been kept in the dark about. It shouldn't have taken her so long to realize that Shuichi had done a ruthlessly pragmatic thing... his fake death was right after he went behind her back and James, not telling them that Kir was CIA, and, along with Shinichi/Conan, essentially hijacked the FBI for their plan, even though neither of them had James' authority. Surely this should've made her think (along with knowing Shuichi for so long, and getting to see Shinichi/Conan in action for so long) that they'd teamed up, again, and kept her in the dark, again.

Eh, in the context of this manga's floating timeline, I'm leery of any argument that depends on the passage of time. We have no idea how long it's been since Akai died. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if only a month or less has passed since then. More so, it seems unfair to expect Jodie and the FBI to assume that Akai totally out-maneuvered the BO and created fake proof for a fake death at a moment's notice (from their perspective). To most people, dogmatically insisting that a beloved who had just died was actually secretly alive wouldn't come across as a legitimate suspicion, it would come across as denial. But even in the face of the evidence to the contrary, Jodie was quite ready to believe that Akai had faked his death when she met Scar Akai, so it wasn't totally out of the realm of the possibility for them.

Shiho/Ai had pretty much zero involvement in Clash of Red and Black—compare her involvement in that to her involvement in Reunion with the Black Organization, or during the Halloween Party case. Shinichi/Conan has essentially boxed her out of recent developments—not telling her Shuichi's/Subaru's identity, not telling her about the Mystery Train plan (and again, Gosho ignores any kind of counter arguments against the "keep your own allies in the dark" position, indicating that he thinks Shinichi/Conan was unambiguously right to do it), and not telling her (as of yet, at least) that Rei/Tooru/Bourbon is NPA.

Haibara's decreased involvement in the main plot comes as a consequence of both her character arc's trajectory and the increased focus on Akai. He's such a critically important figure to her past, but Gosho doesn't want them to meet and resolve their issues just yet, so he kept Haibara away from events that would have entailed her meeting him. The Bourbon arc, with its heavy focus on Akai, only exacerbated the issue by being so long.

It really does strike me how many of current DC's flaws can be attributed to its length. It's one of the main reasons I hope the series ends sooner rather than later: it's starting to become a victim of its own success, and that worries me.

EDIT:

There's a difference between a well developed 'weakness' because of her attachment to Ran which humanises her character and having her mess up and call-out Ran 'Angel' which frankly makes her look foolish.

Still not convinced it was a "mess up." There are no visual cues in that panel that indicate Vermouth blurted it out without meaning to or something to that effect. She said what she meant to say.

[eros1607]

EDIT:

There's a difference between a well developed 'weakness' because of her attachment to Ran which humanises her character and having her mess up and call-out Ran 'Angel' which frankly makes her look foolish.

Still not convinced it was a "mess up." There are no visual cues in that panel that indicate Vermouth blurted it out without meaning to or something to that effect. She said what she meant to say.

That is exactly a "mess up". Does she think that Ran will not suspect Amuro? What if she tell Conan or Subaru/Akai? Vermouth will be in big trouble for sure. But Gosho portrait Ran so passive that she did not do anything. Even in this case, Conan knew Asuza was Vermouth and did not tell Subaru/Akai for God's shake. At least Akai will have plan with Vermouth. But Gosho put too much weight in humanizing Vermouth and in Scotch flashback. Vermouth is less dangerous these days already so don't make her more stupid, Gosho.

[jimmy_kud0_tv2]

We don't even know why Vermouth want to kill Shiho that much.

I think its been made pretty clear that she blames the Miyano parents for something (probably related to her ageing issue). Shiho is their descendant and took over the same kind of research. Plus, Vermouth has to try to maintain her secret.

Conan is desperately trying to cover his real identity, but she doesn't need to worry to much about him at the moment because the BO aren't looking for Shinichi due to Shiho already "confirming" his death. Gin (and Bourbon during his arc), were searching for Shiho. From Vermouth's perspective, Shiho being found as a kid is more of a risk which is why she was willing to break her previous promise to Conan about not harming her.

[eros1607]

We don't even know why Vermouth want to kill Shiho that much.

I think its been made pretty clear that she blames the Miyano parents for something (probably related to her ageing issue). Shiho is their descendant and took over the same kind of research. Plus, Vermouth has to try to maintain her secret.

Yeah, but that is still mysterious. What happened between Shiho's parents and Vermouth is not made clear. And Shiho probably don't know about Vermouth secret and if it is anything related to aging, BO members like Gin and Vodka will know for sure so Vermouth will not try to cover it that much. I think that Vermouth has a bigger secret that is more than her aging issue which so far only Amuro has discovered.

[Kudo Shinchi]

Oops double post

[Kudo Shinchi]

That is exactly a "mess up". Does she think that Ran will not suspect Amuro? What if she tell Conan or Subaru/Akai? Vermouth will be in big trouble for sure.

Why would Vermouth be in big trouble? Conan knew that Vermouth was there; if anything she let him know, as a way of toying with him because she knows there's nothing he can do about it. Maybe Conan did or didn't tell Akai, but in this particular case it hardly matters. Vermouth came for a while and left, That's it. It would be hard for anything to come of it, which is why Vermouth doesn't show any concern about revealing herself to Conan in the case and calling Ran "Angel." And, again, if any of this somehow has negative repercussions for the Organization, so be it. Vermouth couldn't care less about the Org.

Also the first thing Ran did in the next case was question Azusa about whether she'd been present at the case and confront Amuro about it, so Ran was hardly passive.

[eros1607]

That is exactly a "mess up". Does she think that Ran will not suspect Amuro? What if she tell Conan or Subaru/Akai? Vermouth will be in big trouble for sure.

Why would Vermouth be in big trouble? Conan knew that Vermouth was there; if anything she let him know, as a way of toying with him because she knows there's nothing he can do about it. Maybe Conan did or didn't tell Akai, but in this particular case it hardly matters. Vermouth came for a while and left, That's it. It would be hard for anything to come of it, which is why Vermouth doesn't show any concern about revealing herself to Conan in the case and calling Ran "Angel." And, again, if any of this somehow has negative repercussions for the Organization, so be it. Vermouth couldn't care less about the Org.

Also the first thing Ran did in the next case was question Azusa about whether she'd been present at the case and confront Amuro about it, so Ran was hardly passive.

So why Ran didn't called the real Azusa right away? She had enough time to do that. I don't say Ran is passive overall but she is so passive in this case. In the full moon showdown, she sneaked to Jodie's car immediately just because she suspected Jodie stalking her Shinichi, and she knows the "kidnapper" (which is Vermouth) is bad right? Why she didn't do anything immediately in this case. Because that is not related to her Shinichi? And after confronting Amuro at Poirot, everything is settled down so easily. Why Ran didn't ask Azusa who could disguise her? She can have Kogoro done that. But no investigation happened then. She may be not passive but she did so little.

[haibaralove]

@kor
I mostly agree actually there are many other things to be added to this list , Gosho doesn't want to end this series anytime soon and just destroying his own plot , his plot isn't that big regarding the time it needs while he is trying so hard to extend the plot over the murder cases too much causing it to lose it's logic , if masumi needs conan help why she isn't trying much harder to reach him it's not a day or two we are in that for years , why conan didn't ask akai directly if she is his sister and what is she doing here and if they are really in contact or not other than rising up so many unnecessary questions for years .. most of the series mysteries now aren't mysteries they are just built on the characters lack of contact which is completely meaningless and became really bothering most of this mysteries will be solved if akai masumi mari haibara and conan reached each other and everyone told the others what he knows and then they try to think of the real problems and real enemies instead of wasting too much time thinking about each other while they are on the same side .
, for the series just a few months had passed but for readers it's 22 years that can not be neglected we still don't know what is the importance of role of most of the main characters till now also we can't give an answer if someone who know nothing about it asked what's conan plot other than him being a detective who shrank because we actually know nothing other than random pieces of puzzle and suspected hints for things ,the idea of DC very short timeline that gosho had been playing on for years to give logic to his story started to be unconvincing
most of conan fans are old or more accurate not kids they are the ones who grew up with conan and a high percent of them including me are more concerned about the plot rather than the murder cases it's not a simple murder case that we are waiting for the suspect to be revealed at the end.

He didn't ask Akai about Sera because he knows Sera is Akai's sister already. Remember when Conan tried to ask Akai about his father, Akai said that he would tell Conan if Conan revealed himself but Conan refused. I don't know why Conan doesn't trust FBI. Because it is a foreign agency??? I just think that his ego is so big that he want to reveal the identity of BO himself without FBI or PSB. Amuro also shows this sort of attitude. Are Japanese really so against foreign organization???

I quite agree with this...but then again if you see that Shinichi once said to Heiji that no matter whoever says the truth does not matter....if he can say such thing...then even I wonder why Conan is not being open with Akai No doubt that Mary is not confident about Conan...after his such behavior

[eros1607]

@kor
I mostly agree actually there are many other things to be added to this list , Gosho doesn't want to end this series anytime soon and just destroying his own plot , his plot isn't that big regarding the time it needs while he is trying so hard to extend the plot over the murder cases too much causing it to lose it's logic , if masumi needs conan help why she isn't trying much harder to reach him it's not a day or two we are in that for years , why conan didn't ask akai directly if she is his sister and what is she doing here and if they are really in contact or not other than rising up so many unnecessary questions for years .. most of the series mysteries now aren't mysteries they are just built on the characters lack of contact which is completely meaningless and became really bothering most of this mysteries will be solved if akai masumi mari haibara and conan reached each other and everyone told the others what he knows and then they try to think of the real problems and real enemies instead of wasting too much time thinking about each other while they are on the same side .
, for the series just a few months had passed but for readers it's 22 years that can not be neglected we still don't know what is the importance of role of most of the main characters till now also we can't give an answer if someone who know nothing about it asked what's conan plot other than him being a detective who shrank because we actually know nothing other than random pieces of puzzle and suspected hints for things ,the idea of DC very short timeline that gosho had been playing on for years to give logic to his story started to be unconvincing
most of conan fans are old or more accurate not kids they are the ones who grew up with conan and a high percent of them including me are more concerned about the plot rather than the murder cases it's not a simple murder case that we are waiting for the suspect to be revealed at the end.

He didn't ask Akai about Sera because he knows Sera is Akai's sister already. Remember when Conan tried to ask Akai about his father, Akai said that he would tell Conan if Conan revealed himself but Conan refused. I don't know why Conan doesn't trust FBI. Because it is a foreign agency??? I just think that his ego is so big that he want to reveal the identity of BO himself without FBI or PSB. Amuro also shows this sort of attitude. Are Japanese really so against foreign organization???

I quite agree with this...but then again if you see that Shinichi once said to Heiji that no matter whoever says the truth does not matter....if he can say such thing...then even I wonder why Conan is not being open with Akai No doubt that Mary is not confident about Conan...after his such behavior

Mary is even not confident about Akai. She didn't want Akai to investigate his father's case. And Mary was suggested about Conan by Masumi. She was not convinced to let him involve yet. She still believes that Conan (and even Akai based on their lack of communication) is not necessary in her plan.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Since you guys are talking about Shuichi's faked death and his decision to keep his comrades in the dark, I have another question:
Was it worth it?

In faking Shuichi's death, he would no longer be able to assist the FBI, ever (or at least that's what Conan and Shuichi thought at the time). Dead or alive, the FBI would've lost its single most valuable agent (the rest of them are crap).
All this to save Mizunashi Rena's cover; a person who got captured by the FBI to avoid hitting a kid, a person who was unwitting enough to meet her father in private while being bugged, a person who there's some evidence to suggest may now be dead.
Was it a good idea?

I assume this includes James, Jodie and Andre. If so, I must disagree. Plus, it's as hyperbolic a statement as, "the BO is incompetent, now."

Are you implying she could've gotten out of that without ending up comatose? I don't think so. And you make it sound as if she should've hit the Toji Funemoto.

File 898/Episode 783 shows us otherwise. There's no reason for us to think that.

The plan was undertaken so that Hidemi/Rena/Kir could stay undercover, and so Shuichi could survive and help from behind the scenes, and, personally, fulfill his promise to Akemi.

Hidemi/Rena/Kir made Team Shinichi/Conan aware of Bourbon and Rum—it gives Team Shinichi/Conan at least somewhat of an edge.

Personally, I think she'll die, at some point, but before she does, she'll give Team Shinichi/Conan the most valuable piece of intel she's ever come across. From that point, Rei/Tooru will take up her role as Team Shinichi's/Conan's main source of intel inside the BO.

So, yes—I ultimately think it'll prove to be worth it, when all's said and done.

After that moment, I cannot consider Vermouth seriously anymore.

Ran... is totally irrelevant to the plot and losing her popularity. [...] a showdown between Ai/Shiho vs Vermouth is more necessary than this stupid Vermouth vs Ran.

Another hyperbolic statement... "A character I like for X did the opposite of X, in this single moment... the heck with what she's done, before, or what she may do, later... because of this one moment, I'm through with this character!"

Is your contention, at this point, that Gosho's been progressively executing things worse than he did before—with the Bourbon arc, as the evidence, right?—so he will continue to do so, and, therefore, he will make the characters you once liked unlikable? So, therefore, if DC doesn't end soon, there'll be no reason to keep reading it?

Yeah... this sounds like, "I don't like Ran. The heck with Gosho for having her involved in this."

The fact is, Gosho's favorite character is Ran, and he's gonna have her involved, in some capacity. At this point, it's been 12 years since her last suspicion arc. The three she's had, so far, were within DC's first ten years. Her actually getting suspicious, again, and being involved, like she was, in the Vermouth arc climax, is one of the many long overdue things in DC.

Having her plans thwarted by Shinichi/Conan, twice, Vermouth's not going to underestimate him. Ran? She's no super sleuth. That seems to be why Vermouth didn't seem to concerned about what she said, even when she said it. She values Ran for her heart, not her mind—even if Ran figured out who she was, Vermouth assumes that Ran just won't be able to take things anywhere. After all, she must realize that Shinichi/Conan has kept Ran completely in the dark about what's going on. She must trust him to keep Ran out of it.

Until Shinichi/Conan realizes that Ran was at the pier during the Vermouth arc climax, you can forget about him or Shuichi trying to use Vermouth's attachment to Shinichi/Conan and Ran to their advantage. The lack of communication between them cuts both ways, after all.

By saying that if Jodie knew, she would've been fooled by Rei/Tooru/Bourbon as Scar Akai into revealing that Shuichi was alive, resulting in the plan being exposed and Hidemi/Rena/Kir being killed, he is essentially saying, "You're not up for this."

In this case, Gosho brooked no counter-argument to Shuichi's and Shinichi's/Conan's position that, if people aren't at their intellectual level, those people must be misled, deceived, and kept in the dark... even people who are FBI agents, and committed to fighting the BO.

Certainly Conan and Akai's actions can be interpreted that way, and certainly their behavior can be seen to carry such implications, but the notion that Akai and Conan actively believe this about the people around them strikes me as false.

the whole "keep everything a secret" is just a general policy that people like Conan and Akai employ against everyone...including each other.

Note that Conan never came out and told Akai his true identity, even though they are at this point close bodies watching each other' backs. Akai had to find out on his own. Does Conan not believe that a veteran FBI agent like Akai can keep his secret? Does he think revealing himself to one of his closest allies can carry any kind of risk for him? Does Conan believe that Akai is not on his "intellectual level" and therefore he must deceive him in matters pertaining to who he actually is? Probably not. But Conan doesn't tell Akai anyways, because Conan is leery of telling anyone his identity. If memory serve me right, the only two people he's willingly revealed himself to are Agasa and Eisuke. Whether or not Conan entrusts a character with a secret is not a judgment of that character's intelligence/competence. Akai is very much the same (he won't tell Conan anything about his family).

Besides, Akai, despite having good reason not to, entrusted his "return Kir to the Org" plan to Camel, which shows us that at the very least Akai sees Camel as someone who can keep a secret and successfully execute a complex operation. What I take away from Akai's refusal to tell any of his colleagues anything is not a patronizing opinion of them on his part, but of a general aversion to telling anyone anything that they don't absolutely have to know. Akai is capable of sharing secrets; he did so with James, and he eventually told Camel and Jodie the truth. But he was forced to in both cases, which makes him exactly like Conan.

They have a general paranoia of telling anyone anything. I don't think that's a particular helpful or healthy mindset (and it's created some tension within Conan's character in recent years, as it makes him come across as an arrogant jerk even though his character arc is centered around becoming the exact opposite).

It's not just that they seem to believe it, it's that Gosho doesn't try to grow their characters, in this respect, by having them face negative consequences of keeping their own allies in the dark, so they won't always resort to blanket silence and secrecy.

How many people have learned Shinichi's/Conan's identity, since this started (besides Hiroshi and his parents, naturally)? Six. At least for two, he had absolutely no control over. Shinichi/Conan, himself, has had so many moments in which he was outing himself to everyone in eyeshot and earshot. The whole, "one mistake and it's all over" principle applies to him, too. He's not infallible—he's just as capable of dooming himself as anyone around him. And yet Gosho has him make all these mistakes, and nothing really happens. It just reinforces his attitude of blanket silence and secrecy, instead of challenging it. I'd much rather he treat his allies, at least, with more respect. He probably has no idea how disrespectful he's coming off as... but he really needs to learn that he is.

No, it's just Hiroshi. Unless Eisuke pressured him (and that moment is yet another proof that Shinichi/Conan, himself, can do himself in), he would've never revealed himself.

It doesn't matter if Shuichi thinks that he's not patronizing his fellow agents—with such actions, he is. His Sherlock Holmes arrogance leads him to believe doing such things are completely justified. If he even can't trust someone he thinks is on his level, then it's even worse. Again—he and Shinichi/Conan need to learn that blanket silence and secrecy is not always 100% justified.

But only when he felt that he had no choice—if it was up to him, he wouldn't have told any of them.

Exactly. And that's something Gosho needs to address.

Thus, Gosho lowered Jodie's competency, and Andre's (compare how he was portrayed when Gosho was trying to mislead us into thinking he was a BO plant in the FBI to every case in which he appears, after that... in fact, do the same for Jodie—compare her appearances in which Gosho was trying to mislead us into thinking she was Vermouth, to her appearances after it was revealed that she was an FBI agent) to justify them being kept in the dark.

I have compared them...and my general impression is that they just seem like nicer people, which certainly makes them appear less threatening, but that doesn't equal less competent. Camel's flaws were established early on so his blunder in the Scarlet Prologue didn't come out of nowhere, and we see he still has his unmatched skills as a driver. Jodie was fine throughout the Kir arc and did well for most of the Bourbon arc aside from the debacle that was the Sakura Shrine case.

I haven't got that much of an issue with Andre's mess-up. Still, if Shinichi/Conan had been more open with his hand, then he wouldn't have had to resort to quickly whipping up a plan to deal with the implications of said mess-up. And Shuichi, in Scarlet Showdown, said he revealed himself to Rei/Tooru/Bourbon in Mystery Train so that something like Scarlet Showdown could happen... if he thought that just telling Jodie and/or Andre that his death was going to be faked was risky, then him doing that in Mystery Train was... yeah, pretty much straight-up telling the smart guy who hates me that I'm alive is preferable to telling my allies who I kept in the dark... ah, hypocrisy.

Yes, they are both the same characters with the same skills after their true allegiances are revealed, but I think they loose some edge... an edge perhaps necessary for FBI agents. And, again, shouldn't they know Shuichi well enough (and even Shinichi/Conan well enough) to know their tendencies for silence and secrecy and scheming, together? Just look at Jodie reacting to Shuichi going, "Right, kid?", while grinning at Shinichi/Conan during Clash of Red and Black. Just look at Andre, being a part of the plan that made Jodie give him and Shuichi a death glare.

Gosho only focused on the positive consequences of keeping Akai's death secret throughout the Bourbon arc, which created a one-sided portrayal of a rather complicated issue.

Yes, yes, and yes.

He violated chain of command when he didn't tell James that Rena/Kir was CIA agent Hidemi Hondo before the BO went after Haido Central Hospital, after Rikumichi Kusuda died. Instead, he went behind his superior's back and made his own plan—Gosho portrays this as justified... thus, it comes off that Shuichi should be in charge, not James.

Agreed, though that last line strikes me as extrapolating too far.

But no one in the FBI besides Shuichi and Andre knew there was a secret plan underway. By having Shuichi's superior not catch on to what Shuichi and Shinichi/Conan were doing, behind his back, it comes off like he doesn't know Shuichi (or even Shinichi/Conan) as well as he should... it comes off like he shouldn't be calling the shots, with his subordinate being the one who crafts the strategies. Again, Gosho doesn't seem to realize that he's making it come off this way, but that's what happens when you make such a character of authority act completely floored and even miffed that someone like Shuichi would act in the way he did, and not realize Shuichi's intent until it's explained to him.

These days, it's not, FBI Vs BO—it's Shinichi/Conan and Shuichi Vs BO. Since Clash of Red and Black, the FBI have just been along for the ride of whatever plan Shinichi/Conan and Shuichi come up with. Shuichi and Jodie were working together during the Halloween Party case—since then? Shinichi/Conan has become Shuichi's partner. The FBI had a plan to get Vermouth during her arc. Now what plans do they have? Have they launched any offensives, since then, or since Black Impact? Not really.

Yeah, this bothers me. We haven't really had any confrontations on the scale of Clash ever since Akai's fake death. The focus has radically shrunk. Let me correct your statement: these days (well, years), it's Conan and Shuichi vs. Bourbon/Vermouth/Rum. No other BO members really feature prominently, which a confrontation that actually includes them would do wonders to rectify. This is an example of Conan's sheer length and case format interfering with a satisfying progression of the plot. The Bourbon arc's length, especially, has really made this a glaring issue. Since Gosho was determined to finish up the mystery of Akai's death and Bourbon's rivalry before anything else, the rest of the FBI and the BO were placed on the backburner. But it's precisely because this issue affects both sides that I don't see it as some kind of relegation of the FBI to Akai and Conan's awesomeness. The scale of the story has simply been rather narrow for several years now, revolving around a very limited number of characters.

The hope is, with Rum now in the mix, the focus will expand, and we'll get Clash of Red and Black-esque confrontations.

But even so, Shinichi/Conan and Shuichi need to learn those lessons about blanket secrecy and silence not always being 100% justified, else, we'll get more Shinichi/Conan and Shuichi Vs. BO, as opposed to the preferable Shinichi/Conan, Shuichi and FBI Vs. BO.

Her Halloween Party case deduction was about Vermouth and her past, while confronting her. Her Scarlet Showdown deduction? About a plan concocted by her own allies that she'd been kept in the dark about. It shouldn't have taken her so long to realize that Shuichi had done a ruthlessly pragmatic thing... his fake death was right after he went behind her back and James, not telling them that Kir was CIA, and, along with Shinichi/Conan, essentially hijacked the FBI for their plan, even though neither of them had James' authority. Surely this should've made her think (along with knowing Shuichi for so long, and getting to see Shinichi/Conan in action for so long) that they'd teamed up, again, and kept her in the dark, again.

Eh, in the context of this manga's floating timeline, I'm leery of any argument that depends on the passage of time. We have no idea how long it's been since Akai died. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if only a month or less has passed since then. More so, it seems unfair to expect Jodie and the FBI to assume that Akai totally out-maneuvered the BO and created fake proof for a fake death at a moment's notice (from their perspective). To most people, dogmatically insisting that a beloved who had just died was actually secretly alive wouldn't come across as a legitimate suspicion, it would come across as denial. But even in the face of the evidence to the contrary, Jodie was quite ready to believe that Akai had faked his death when she met Scar Akai, so it wasn't totally out of the realm of the possibility for them.

Uh...

...his fake death was right after he went behind her back and James, not telling them that Kir was CIA, and, along with Shinichi/Conan, essentially hijacked the FBI for their plan, even though neither of them had James' authority. Surely this should've made her think (along with knowing Shuichi for so long, and getting to see Shinichi/Conan in action for so long) that they'd teamed up, again, and kept her in the dark, again.

If anything, that would be very good show for Jodie—to make that connection, and to show that she has that much respect for and faith in Shuichi and Shinichi/Conan. If they really are so good, they why not have their closest allies know that like the back of their hands, at the very least?

Shiho/Ai had pretty much zero involvement in Clash of Red and Black—compare her involvement in that to her involvement in Reunion with the Black Organization, or during the Halloween Party case. Shinichi/Conan has essentially boxed her out of recent developments—not telling her Shuichi's/Subaru's identity, not telling her about the Mystery Train plan (and again, Gosho ignores any kind of counter arguments against the "keep your own allies in the dark" position, indicating that he thinks Shinichi/Conan was unambiguously right to do it), and not telling her (as of yet, at least) that Rei/Tooru/Bourbon is NPA.

Haibara's decreased involvement in the main plot comes as a consequence of both her character arc's trajectory and the increased focus on Akai. He's such a critically important figure to her past, but Gosho doesn't want them to meet and resolve their issues just yet, so he kept Haibara away from events that would have entailed her meeting him. The Bourbon arc, with its heavy focus on Akai, only exacerbated the issue by being so long.

It really does strike me how many of current DC's flaws can be attributed to its length. It's one of the main reasons I hope the series ends sooner rather than later: it's starting to become a victim of its own success, and that worries me.

Yeah, in hindsight, one could easily take a blowtorch to the chaff—and maybe reorganize, if need be—and eliminate the lion's share of the problems. For instance, this whole thing with Rei/Tooru/Bourbon, Shuichi, and Shuichi's family? Instead of 200+ Files to reach the resolution, imagine both being reached in half of that time or less. Heck, imagine if all the elements introduced between File 176 and File 898/Episode 129 and Episode 783 had been introduced in the Intro/Conan arc (File 1–File 175/Episode 1–Episode 128). Long-time fans really liked the case's mysteries, back in that arc. Imagine getting those good mystery cases and all the character and plot people love to theorize about, at the same time.

That is exactly a "mess up". Does she think that Ran will not suspect Amuro? What if she tell Conan or Subaru/Akai? Vermouth will be in big trouble for sure.

Why would Vermouth be in big trouble? Conan knew that Vermouth was there; if anything she let him know, as a way of toying with him because she knows there's nothing he can do about it. Maybe Conan did or didn't tell Akai, but in this particular case it hardly matters. Vermouth came for a while and left, That's it. It would be hard for anything to come of it, which is why Vermouth doesn't show any concern about revealing herself to Conan in the case and calling Ran "Angel." And, again, if any of this somehow has negative repercussions for the Organization, so be it. Vermouth couldn't care less about the Org.

Also the first thing Ran did in the next case was question Azusa about whether she'd been present at the case and confront Amuro about it, so Ran was hardly passive.

So why Ran didn't called the real Azusa right away? She had enough time to do that. I don't say Ran is passive overall but she is so passive in this case. In the full moon showdown, she sneaked to Jodie's car immediately just because she suspected Jodie stalking her Shinichi, and she knows the "kidnapper" (which is Vermouth) is bad right? Why she didn't do anything immediately in this case. Because that is not related to her Shinichi? And after confronting Amuro at Poirot, everything is settled down so easily. Why Ran didn't ask Azusa who could disguise her? She can have Kogoro done that. But no investigation happened then. She may be not passive but she did so little.

The thing is, we always have to wait, now, for follow-ups to events like this. Ran saved Shiho/Ai in File 434. The disguised kidnapper came in the 950s. We waited 500+ files for a follow up. I think we can manage the wait until we focus on Ran, again.

Ran has all these puzzle pieces, all these pieces of information... she just needs some kind of impetus to put them together. In the end, that's what we're waiting for. Gosho's put so much on the back burner—we've just been waiting and waiting for him to take so much off the back burner.

[k11chi]

Yeah, this bothers me. We haven't really had any confrontations on the scale of Clash ever since Akai's fake death. The focus has radically shrunk. Let me correct your statement: these days (well, years), it's Conan and Shuichi vs. Bourbon/Vermouth/Rum. No other BO members really feature prominently, which a confrontation that actually includes them would do wonders to rectify. This is an example of Conan's sheer length and case format interfering with a satisfying progression of the plot. The Bourbon arc's length, especially, has really made this a glaring issue. Since Gosho was determined to finish up the mystery of Akai's death and Bourbon's rivalry before anything else, the rest of the FBI and the BO were placed on the backburner. But it's precisely because this issue affects both sides that I don't see it as some kind of relegation of the FBI to Akai and Conan's awesomeness. The scale of the story has simply been rather narrow for several years now, revolving around a very limited number of characters.

From the comments I've seen on facebook for example the Scarlet and Mystery Train portion of the series (800s) is many of the new fans' favorite part so far. To quote "It only gets better and better."

[galadriel75]

Spoiler:

Akai and Shukichis resamblance to Kir and Eisuke in file 973, is it coincidence or a hint? What do you think?

[MoonRaven]

Coincidence

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Coincidence

Agreed.

I wouldn't mind it, if it turned out to be the case... but right now, I just don't see it happening.

Spoiler:

Shuichi and Hidemi aren't the only characters with a widow's peak, after all.

[MeiTanteixX]

Coincidence

Agreed.

I wouldn't mind it, if it turned out to be the case... but right now, I just don't see it happening.

Spoiler:

Shuichi and Hidemi aren't the only characters with a widow's peak, after all.

My theory is about to come true