Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Zerozaki4869

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

Yes the fight could have happened, but I think that wasn't the case though.
Cause let's say if the fight really had happened, then it was more likely to happen in Amanda's room as she had a bodyguard.
Plus Rumi's memory serves as a benchmark, the Kohji's room already saw a fight between Kohji and Rum, but yes I can think that instead of a fight Rum's clean-up being hampered by Rumi directly coming in might be a cause. That also could be the reason that Rum wasn't able to take the piece with him.

Hmm....I also have doubts about the writer of the mirror message. Cause if we analyse the scene, then mirror message looks very unlikely to begin with. Kohji didn't have enough time to make the message begin with.
So there are two candidates who could have faked the message a) Rumi b) Uploader (Uploader=! Rumi) c) Uploader==Rumi.
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blackmoon

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

Mohamed Ebrahem wrote:
April 30th, 2020, 4:05 pm
I apologize to you , my information in Shogi is very little, I did not understand very well what you want to say, but I feel that you want to build me on something very important, what I understood from you is that you want to say that the piece that with Wakasa Rumi that Haneda Koji loved it , and (uma) shogi piece in real one shogi piece not two and that one has two sides ?? Is that what you mean or do I still not understand you well ?
But if you really mean that , this will be a good addition to the conclusion, so we will say that Wakasa took one piece not two pieces , and we will also say that Koji used the piece which he loved as a death message but he meant the side which refers to uma word not the other side ?
What do you think ??
YES, basically Japanese shogi pieces unlike chess pieces has two sides with different characters printed on both sides, so the same one shogi piece can have two sides, so i 'think' that both the Uma (promoted bishop) shogi piece which was shown on Rumi's desk and the (bishop) shogi piece which Kohji loved and was shown held in Rumi's pant pocket was basically the same shogi piece (2 opposite sides were shown at 2 different times) so Rumi only had ONE shogi piece instead of TWO different pieces as suggested in your theory.

And i'm not sure which side was shown at time of Kohji's death, whether and IF Kohji actually used the shogi piece as a dying message, and even whether IF the shogi piece was held in his palm at the time of his death (this wasn't even confirmed by Gosho) or was it just a scissor or something else (some other possible object) couldn't be verified. ;D
IMH, so little information were given out surrounding the Kohji case so much so that the theory or any other theory itself is just a theory and not even considered a red-herring. ;)
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"one should stick with one's original plan" (初志貫徹 shoshi kantetsu) ;)
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Zerozaki4869

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

If the bishop really is the object he held (given the dimension of the bruise.)
then we can conclude this,
So I did a little research with the Bishop piece. It seems the Kanji's of the Bishop or Uma can't be used to form coherent names but there's a way out. The Kanji's have certain Nanori(name) readings which can point to certain legal Japanese names (albeit Phonetically).
So I scouted online Nanori reading of the both the Kanjis consisting the Kaku/Bishop part and Promoted Bishop/Uma separately.
This is for Bishop part.
- Inami (surname or female name)
- Iname (surname or female name)
- Imichi (surname)
- Sunami (surname or female name)
- Suname (surname)
- Sumichi (surname)
- Suminami (surname)
- Sumiyuki (name, gender not specified?)
- Fusamichi (name, gender not specified?)
- Fusayuki (name, gender not specified?)
For "promoted bishop"
- Ryuuta (name)
- Ryuume (name)
- Ryuumo (name or surname)

Thanks to Holmes for checking the legality of the names and giving a clear outline for the Gender.
This is the source.
https://www.japandict.com/%E8%A7%92%E8%A1%8C
https://www.japandict.com/%E7%AB%9C%E9%A6%AC?lang=eng
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Mohamed Ebrahem

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Mohamed Ebrahem »

blackmoon wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 6:36 am
YES, basically Japanese shogi pieces unlike chess pieces has two sides with different characters printed on both sides, so the same one shogi piece can have two sides, so i 'think' that both the Uma (promoted bishop) shogi piece which was shown on Rumi's desk and the (bishop) shogi piece which Kohji loved and was shown held in Rumi's pant pocket was basically the same shogi piece (2 opposite sides were shown at 2 different times) so Rumi only had ONE shogi piece instead of TWO different pieces as suggested in your theory.
And i'm not sure which side was shown at time of Kohji's death, whether and IF Kohji actually used the shogi piece as a dying message, and even whether IF the shogi piece was held in his palm at the time of his death (this wasn't even confirmed by Gosho) or was it just a scissor or something else (some other possible object) couldn't be verified. ;D
IMH, so little information were given out surrounding the Kohji case so much so that the theory or any other theory itself is just a theory and not even considered a red-herring. ;)
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We know red-herring is the style of Goshu in disguise , but this time I think red-herring is when fans are thinking the Karasuma message was made by Haneda Koji , this is the trick here and And it was indicated through hotel name on the broken cup , name of hotel is Juke and it means in America is a kind of tricks so I think the red herring was this Karasuma message , specially that Goshu tells us this message so earlier ;D ;D , but the bruises of Haneda Koji's palm would indicate the real as he hold the scissors tightly in a defensive way and below it the shogi piece side (uma) , i think this is his message only and he did not do anything with the mirror message , so we have a real message and The red herring message which is Karasuma, who is believed to have died 50 years ago , i think the person who made the letter message is Wakasa Rumi who seems likely to know him as shown in file 1051 .

Goshu before revealing the truth about the case of Koji’s death , he gradually reveals everything about it in ordinary cases to give hints but give one hint or more for every case and not all hints in one case , i mean in any series for example , he gives a hint about a specific part , whether the identity of some one or a sequence events that had happened in particular case and so on , Goshu will not reveal the truth about Koji's death until after he hints to us what had actually happened, but gradually .
In Chapters 948 949 950 The hint is made of how to read the real message , but this message is not made by Kogi, but Goshu also indicated in it the scissors that hold tightly (the clenched scissors) which means chikara .
In chapters 9990 991 992 993 The word katta is mentioned but in Kansai meaning is shirt , Goshu wants us to look at its other known meaning which means scissors . so we have Katta .
As for uma , i think a hint like : 1- we saw in poster on movie 20 where Conan riding a horse . 2- The desk of Wakasa Rumi , the piece is on the uma side . 3- The (u) letter of the word (put) in the broken mirror is scrated as a shape of shogi piece .
if you have a Modification , you can tell me about it . ;D
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Mohamed Ebrahem

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Mohamed Ebrahem »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 8:09 am
If the bishop really is the object he held (given the dimension of the bruise.)
then we can conclude this,
So I did a little research with the Bishop piece. It seems the Kanji's of the Bishop or Uma can't be used to form coherent names but there's a way out. The Kanji's have certain Nanori(name) readings which can point to certain legal Japanese names (albeit Phonetically).
So I scouted online Nanori reading of the both the Kanjis consisting the Kaku/Bishop part and Promoted Bishop/Uma separately.

For "promoted bishop"
- Ryuume (name)
- Ryuumo (name or surname)
But I heard that we can abbreviate those names or surnames specifically as uma so we can insert this shortcut into names as Haneda Kohji had done to refer to chikara name , right ?
- Ryuume (name)
- Ryuumo (name or surname)
Last edited by Mohamed Ebrahem on May 1st, 2020, 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cognac

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Cognac »

Considering that Kohji carried the shogi piece with him all the time, I think it wouldn’t directly spell out specific name of a person/family/organization, if it really served the purpose as a dying message.
That’s too much of a coincidence.
The lucky charm was not practical while Kohji was alive, and to make it suddenly practical when he was about to die is, imo, a poor plot device that Gosho wouldn’t use.
Zerozaki4869

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

Cognac wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 10:24 am
Considering that Kohji carried the shogi piece with him all the time, I think it wouldn’t directly spell out specific name of a person/family/organization, if it really served the purpose as a dying message.
That’s too much of a coincidence.
The lucky charm was not practical while Kohji was alive, and to make it suddenly practical when he was about to die is, imo, a poor plot device that Gosho wouldn’t use.
The issue is not that, Kohji died while holding onto that charm and then somebody removed it from his palms, then Rumi picked it up. So it is fairly important.
The very nature of dying messages are a fortunate coincidence of some sorts, so I can't see from where the gripe is coming.
But I heard that we can abbreviate those names or surnames specifically as uma
Yes you've heard correctly, but Uma possibly is not the message. You can think it is some part of the dying message.
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Mohamed Ebrahem

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Mohamed Ebrahem »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 12:24 pm
Yes you've heard correctly, but Uma possibly is not the message. You can think it is some part of the dying message.
Yes, it is really part of the dying message and it is not alone the only message . From the bruises on the palm of Haneda Koji's hand, you can know that he was holding the scissors defensively and under it the shogi piece , isn't this strange ? What would the shogi piece use in the fight between him and the killer, so it was a part of the death message and as you said it was so important to a degree that Wakasa Rumi picked it up and kept it to date and always carried it with her .
There are bruises on the face of Haneda Koji as well so there is a violent fight between two people who may be equal in strength. Wakasa Rumi can finish off her opponent in one fell swoop as we saw what she did with Amoru in last farm case, so I cannot say that she had fought with Haneda Koji and killed him .
Therefore, the message that Haneda Koji wanted to send us is holding the scissors tightly and under it the shogi piece , so dying message is as shown in the following pictures :
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Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Kor »

So I understand why you're hung up on cutter (katta), but it's a pure conjecture that you're trying to read scissors as "katta". Scissors in Japanese translate to "hasami".

Furthermore, the anagram you're trying to make is incomplete. Katta isn't かつた. かつた is "katsuta". Katta (cutter) is カッター


As for where I personally stand on the entire Katsumata debate, I think that (as a few others have proposed) the only way for Katsumata to be Rum at this point is if he's also Wakita. The Gosho interview sealed the door for any suspects besides the three. I'm not sure how much I'd bet on a Katsumata involvement, though, cause now that we know he has a daughter (and assuming Rum is meant to be evil), I don't think Gosho would have a villain with redeeming qualities (which in this case, said redeeming quality would be having a daughter).
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Mohamed Ebrahem

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Mohamed Ebrahem »

Kor wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 3:50 pm
So I understand why you're hung up on cutter (katta), but it's a pure conjecture that you're trying to read scissors as "katta". Scissors in Japanese translate to "hasami".

Furthermore, the anagram you're trying to make is incomplete. Katta isn't かつた. かつた is "katsuta". Katta (cutter) is カッター


As for where I personally stand on the entire Katsumata debate, I think that (as a few others have proposed) the only way for Katsumata to be Rum at this point is if he's also Wakita. The Gosho interview sealed the door for any suspects besides the three. I'm not sure how much I'd bet on a Katsumata involvement, though, cause now that we know he has a daughter (and assuming Rum is meant to be evil), I don't think Gosho would have a villain with redeeming qualities (which in this case, said redeeming quality would be having a daughter).
thank you friend for yout excellent notes :)
But when you hold the scissors in the normal way you can say that this is Scissors or "hasami", but when you hold it in a defensive method it becomes exactly like the real katta as you can kill or stap anyone by this way so Kohji whanted to refer to Katta not hasami by holding the scissors in the defensive way specially when this scissors is accompanied by shogi piece in the same hand and katta is hinted in chapters 990 991 992 993 . we know that Koji knows the social name of Rum and does not know that he is Karasuma or Rum .
Wakasa could kill Kohji and Finish him with one hit .
Holding scissors in a devensive way and a shogi piece together as shown in the picture below is suspicious , as Wakasa rumi called him foolish guy as if he completely surrendered to his death and did not defend himself, but caught the scissors and the shogi piece in order to make the message only , this means that Haneda Koji from the start plans to form the death message if the fight ends in killing him .
I am not saying that Chikara is Rum only but I am saying that Chikara is Rum is Karasuma and for me iam sure of it .
Suppose Gosho said that Rum is one of the three but what i can see from the behaviour of three suspects , i can deny all of them to be Rum the second important member in BO , who using SMS to comminicate with low ranking member to keep his identity secret from them .
who do you think is RUM ??
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Kor
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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Kor »

Mohamed Ebrahem wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 7:39 pm
who do you think is RUM ??
Wakita
♪~ ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗ
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blackmoon

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by blackmoon »

I'm quoting this part from file 1051:
"Page 5
Kobayashi: Huh? That's a name, isn't it?
Kobayashi: Then, if Wakasa-sensei had someone named "Karasuda", would you think he's a crow?
Rumi: I-I wouldn't think so...

Rumi: It's just that... in case he's a crow, then he would be a pitch black, cunning person, hard to approach, who forms factions and makes moves...
Rumi: That's the image I just have...

Rumi: Well, of all people... He might be someone fun and bright for all we know...
Kobayashi: Ah, that might be the case...
Conan: ......"

So based on the conversation between Kobayashi and Rumi regarding the discussion concerning "Karasuda" or crow... it seems that Rumi doesn't seem to have an entirely black impression regarding the image of 'that person related to crow'... if 'that person' whom she had in mind was the Ano-kata or the BOSS that may be connected to Karasuma... then i can't possibly imagine that the 'dying-message' pointing towards 'Karasuma' that was left at Kohji's death scene could be left by Rumi. So who would possibly leave a message that points to 'Karasuma' AND try to implicate RUM who screwed up in this case by doing so? Surely not another BO member would risk doing so? But what if it were left by someone who knew about the Karasuma group and thought that they were kinda shady? 8-) And speaking of unnecessary coincidences.... ::)
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Zerozaki4869

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Zerozaki4869 »

Well if You look closely All those 3 cases involved heiji/Kazuha/Momiji. So One could also count them as Rum suspects.

On Karasuda, there seems to be something more relevant, this -da Kanji,( 田) is an integral part of the names Kuroda/Wakita.
So this could be a hint that Rum is one among Kuroda and Wakita, while both of them are BO agents.

Iori Muga is a junk suspect, cause a) Rum is among the trio. b) Momiji Ooka's family is very influential, so they won't allow just someone with fake name and reference as their Butler. Iori must have some commendable pedigree and infallible references. So Iori can't possibly be Rum, plus Iori lacks motive, activity to be considered as a serious Rum suspect.

Something that is on my mind for sometime now.
Let's look at Rum's body descriptions
a) Strongly built man b) Womanly man c) Old man. Also Rum's one eye is prosthetic/blind in one eye.
Out of these three only strongly built man indicates a body-type but other two can be from a varied range of myriad stuff.
Now let's look at all the suspicious people gathered
1) Kuroda (Strongly built, has white hair, likes tea which is considered a womanly drink. Possibly his right eye is prosthetic.)-4
2) Rumi (is a woman so shouldn't be on this list, one right eye is sort of dysfunctional.)-1
3) Wakita(Old man, has old man like bent back and bent knees, wears an eye-patch.)-2
4) Iori (Athletic build, womanly hair. No eye issue observed.)-2
5) Chikara Katsumata (Is a shogi player so might culture some womanly habits, average built, could be termed old/middle aged/oji-san, no eye issue observed.)-1.5
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Mohamed Ebrahem

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Mohamed Ebrahem »

Kor wrote:
May 2nd, 2020, 3:50 am
Mohamed Ebrahem wrote:
May 1st, 2020, 7:39 pm
who do you think is RUM ??
Wakita
♪~ ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗ
I do not think so
1- The confirmed trait in Rum is that one of his eyes is artificial , and I do not think this trait is in Wakita .
Putting an eye patch is due to such an ulcer or a boil , so it is difficult for characteristic to be available in him , also Wakita twice when appearing with Mori offers revealing to him the infected eye ,so he usually tells the truth about his eye which is injured and not missed .
2- Wakita’s actions are going to Kudo Senchi’s house and Professor Agasa's question about Sinchi is like saying to people: “I’m a member of the organization” .
3- Talking to Bourbon about deception, as if saying to Bourbon I am Rum who sends you orders SMS .
4- in his first appearane he becomes close to Mori Koguro , Gin thinks Mouri has an affair with the FBI or he is investigating the organization , it is difficult for Rum to approach anyone like this without being careful . Investigation of Mori Kogoro may be carried out by any low ranking member in the BO and does not need RUM himself because Mori Kogoro or the FBI may set you a trap .
5- Finally, the whole time is money, which turns into Wakita Kanenori , it is impossible for Rum to reveal himself to a smart Member as Bourbon in this way .

RUM is a highly classified Secret member who works through his followers and to a degree that members of the BO themselves do not know his exact shape , even Haibara who knows the Boss , does not know who is Rum and it is impossible for RUM do such as Wakita's behaviours . ??? ???
This is a goshu trap for fans, I agree with you that Wakita is BO member but 100% is definitely not RUM .
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Mohamed Ebrahem

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Re: Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

Post by Mohamed Ebrahem »

Zerozaki4869 wrote:
May 2nd, 2020, 5:11 am
Now let's look at all the suspicious people gathered
1) Kuroda (Strongly built, has white hair, likes tea which is considered a womanly drink. Possibly his right eye is prosthetic.)-4
2) Rumi (is a woman so shouldn't be on this list, one right eye is sort of dysfunctional.)-1
3) Wakita(Old man, has old man like bent back and bent knees, wears an eye-patch.)-2
4) Iori (Athletic build, womanly hair. No eye issue observed.)-2
5) Chikara Katsumata (Is a shogi player so might culture some womanly habits, average built, could be termed old/middle aged/oji-san, no eye issue observed.)-1.5
I want to tell you my expectations about the identities of people in arc Rum in abbreviation and you can tell me your opinion about mine , and also tell me your expectations about identity of the same people :
1- Rum is Karasuma, and he is Chikara Katsumata , I'm really sure of this .
2- Kuroda is the boss of the NPA , the father of Haneda Koji , because there is a similarity between them in the face, hair, and even glasses 8-) ;D , I do not think he is Tsutomo because Tsutomu is smart but Kuroda seems that Kuroda does not have the intelligence of Tsutomo because he is still investigate the truth about case that occurred 17 years ago until now and it seems that he did not arrive for real criminal .
3- Wakasa Rumi is Asaka , and she is the young sister of Atsushi and the love of Hanyida Koji . my personal opinion that Wakasa Rumi told the truth to Haibara about relationship between them , so we found that Haibara suddenly loved and rested her , ordered Conan not to make fun of Wakasa Rumi and not suspecting her , this is very strange to Haibara who is afraid From Bourbon , so this is my personal opinion that Haibara is the one who gave the APTX victims list to Wakasa Rumi , because the list is very recent and the name Kudo Sinchi is written on it , I think it is only in the possession of Haibara , Wakasa Rumi requested it from Haibara because the name Haneda Koji is in it, she loves anything that reminds her about Haneda like also bishop shogi piece , so Haibara knows the identity of Wakasa Rumi but hides this from Conan as also Conan know The identity of okiya Subaru and hides this from her .
4 Wakita , is subordinated from Gin, to investigate Mori Kogoro , went to Kudo Sinchi's house so quickly because Gin ordered him to do because it would be a fatal mistake for Gin that Kudo Sinchi was alive . Gin catch a slip on Rum's mistakes 17 years ago , so Rum orders Bourbon to go to Kudo Sinchi's house very quickly to catch also slips on Gin's mistakes about Kuso Sinchi .
5- Iori Muga has been excluded from being a rum or asaka because he is very young 17 years ago , he was only 13 years .
We have :
Four known FBI members: James Black , Akai , Judy and Camel
Four known NPA members : Kuroda , Bourbon , Kazami and Scotch who suicide .
why Mi6 also has such a 4 members Mary , Wakasa Rumi , Iori Muga and another some one else , may be sakurako yonehara ;D ;D

What is your comment on my expectations , and what are your personal expectations about same members ?? :)
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