Rum Arc Discussion Thread (Plot + Characters)

[Zerozaki4869]

To be honest I don't/can't imagine Kohji making the mirror message irrespective of whether his hand was shown on the site or not.
It sounds a pretty impossible proposition, the only two possible answers are
a) Kohji used the scissors like a chisel and gouged out the letters. Which sounds pretty impractical and tough to do. Now add with this that he had to make the message, throw away the mirror, fight with Rum, throw away the scissors, pick up the piece and again pick up the scissors.
Some suggest that he could have done the chiseling while already having thepiece in his hand, which is even tougher to accomplish.
b) Other's say he would have need to remove the whole backing, cut the letters and then put the other parts in the backing, then throw away the mirror , put down the scissors, pick the piece up, pick the scissors and fight with Rum. Here the aligmnment of the pieces in the mirror negates this possibility.

Plus Agasa did explain that one needs to cut it under water/constant waterflow so that some control can be exercised, but gouging won't allow you such control especially during a fight/flight instance.

[blackmoon]

Not sure if it was a translation error but i somehow remember it as Amanda's room being clean and tidy with only the tab left running?

[MeiTanteixX]

Not sure if it was a translation error but i somehow remember it as Amanda's room being clean and tidy with only the tab left running?

Spoiler:

Yes, it's a mistranslation. Amanda's room was tidy and untouched, just like how Haibara described the BO handles their crime a panel ago, while Conan was continuing to talk about Kohji's messy room and the tab that was left running.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Not sure if it was a translation error but i somehow remember it as Amanda's room being clean and tidy with only the tab left running?

Spoiler:

Yes, it's a mistranslation. Amanda's room was tidy and untouched, just like how Haibara described the BO handles their crime a panel ago, while Conan was continuing to talk about Kohji's messy room and the tab that was left running.

Yes, Kōji's room was a wreck—and the tap in the bathroom was left running—whereas Amanda's room seemed untouched, by comparison.

To be honest I don't/can't imagine Kohji making the mirror message irrespective of whether his hand was shown on the site or not.
It sounds a pretty impossible proposition, the only two possible answers are
a) Kohji used the scissors like a chisel and gouged out the letters. Which sounds pretty impractical and tough to do. Now add with this that he had to make the message, throw away the mirror, fight with Rum, throw away the scissors, pick up the piece and again pick up the scissors.
Some suggest that he could have done the chiseling while already having thepiece in his hand, which is even tougher to accomplish.
b) Other's say he would have need to remove the whole backing, cut the letters and then put the other parts in the backing, then throw away the mirror , put down the scissors, pick the piece up, pick the scissors and fight with Rum. Here the aligmnment of the pieces in the mirror negates this possibility.

Plus Agasa did explain that one needs to cut it under water/constant waterflow so that some control can be exercised, but gouging won't allow you such control especially during a fight/flight instance.

Yeah, the difference between the Kōji case and the murder case in the present—the one that Shinichi/Conan solved immediately after first reading about the Kōji case—was that the "Put on Mascara" mirror had backing, whereas the "Fusae Brand" glass had no such obstruction, in terms of the victim just going to town on the glass with the scissors.

Since Amanda was Rum's target, I don't think Rum would've taken the time to, say, disconnect Kōji's landline phone in his room to prevent him from calling the police (assuming he knew English, which is no guarantee)—if Rum had done so, that would mean that Rum was prepared for Kōji's unintentional interference in Rum's objective of killing Amanda without being witnessed, and, thus would not have allowed the mess that unfolded in Kōji's room, which tells us that Rum was unprepared for Kōji being an accidental witness. In any case, if a 3rd party intervened, Rum would be prevented from immediately silencing Kōji, thus allowing Kōji to escape into his room (perhaps to find his phone had been disconnected). And since Kōji fled into his room instead of an elevator or stairs, that means that Rum had cut him off from escaping the floor. But before Rum could attack Kōji right there, in the hallway, a 3rd party intervened... but their ensuing fight with Rum forced Kōji to retreat into his room, rather than simply run to the stairs or elevator to escape the floor.

Now, then... if Kōji isn't the one responsible for the "Carasuma" message, then who is? Who took the mirror's glass out of it's backing, cut out "Carasuma" from "Put on Mascara," and put the glass back in... or used the scissors as a chisel... or used another method, entirely, and made the message?

Rumi's flashback from 1,033 is intended to make us think that she killed Kōji, and, thus, she is Rum, but if we go by Kōji's expressions and where he's looking—first in front of him, then to his left—during this flashback, I don't think this was from when Rum broke into the room, intent on killing Kōji... I don't think either of them would've stopped to chat... rather, this conversation between seems to be from before that... and that's not even getting into how out-of-context this could be... this flashback is simply too slanted against Rumi for her to be Rum. And considering how Rumi had been portrayed up to this flashback... it's even more evidence that he's out to portray her as the lead suspect in this arc mystery, just like he portrayed Jodie as the lead candidate to be Vermouth and Shūichi/Subaru as the lead candidate to be Bourbon, and just like how Gosho pushed the notion that Rena Mizunashi/Kir wasn't Hidemi Hondō. At the same time, Kanenori being so similar to Rei/Bourbon pushes suspicion on him. And unlike Jodie, Hyōe's police occupation was revealed to us from the start—his intro case featured him mentioning the NPA quite a bit, alluding to his role as Rei's superior. He, a police officer, pursuing Rumi, furthers the notion that she is a criminal worthy of attention from a high-ranking officer of the NPA, further implicating her and further exonerating him.

[Zerozaki4869]

To be honest I've no idea about who could have been the real message maker.

Yes, If Kohji was fleeing from Rum, the best idea is to go for the elevator/stairs and if somehow he got inside his room to call for the lobby. My idea is that Rum could be someone from the close circle of Kohji. Hence Rum came in without creating any fuss and Kohji never realized what had hit him.

Also a little food for thought.
We can see how Gosho draws male and female characters. He ensures that females do have their elbow around their waist and males a bit higher than the waist.
For Asaka the elbow joint falls in male zone.

[MeiTanteixX]

Rumi's flashback from 1,033 is intended to make us think that she killed Kōji, and, thus, she is Rum, but if we go by Kōji's expressions and where he's looking—first in front of him, then to his left—during this flashback, I don't think this was from when Rum broke into the room, intent on killing Kōji... I don't think either of them would've stopped to chat... rather, this conversation between seems to be from before that... and that's not even getting into how out-of-context this could be... this flashback is simply too slanted against Rumi for her to be Rum. And considering how Rumi had been portrayed up to this flashback... it's even more evidence that he's out to portray her as the lead suspect in this arc mystery, just like he portrayed Jodie as the lead candidate to be Vermouth and Shūichi/Subaru as the lead candidate to be Bourbon, and just like how Gosho pushed the notion that Rena Mizunashi/Kir wasn't Hidemi Hondō. At the same time, Kanenori being so similar to Rei/Bourbon pushes suspicion on him. And unlike Jodie, Hyōe's police occupation was revealed to us from the start—his intro case featured him mentioning the NPA quite a bit, alluding to his role as Rei's superior. He, a police officer, pursuing Rumi, furthers the notion that she is a criminal worthy of attention from a high-ranking officer of the NPA, further implicating her and further exonerating him.

I'm quite curious about your statements here...
Do you truly think that Kuroda, who along with his exonerating portrayals has many incriminating portrayals in the narrative, is more likely to turn out to be Rum than Wakita, who despite his incriminating developments from a meta perspective has the least incriminating portrayals in the narrative?

Personally, I don't discredit the meta perspective as a conscious component in Gosho's mislead tactics, however, the narrative always takes the front row when it comes to misleading the reader for Gosho,... and so with that being said, I can't really see how someone like Kuroda, who is neither fully exonerated in the narrative nor freed from continuous Rum portrayals, can end up becoming Rum.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

Do you truly think that Kuroda, who along with his exonerating portrayals has many incriminating portrayals in the narrative, is more likely to turn out to be Rum than Wakita, who despite his incriminating developments from a meta perspective has the least incriminating portrayals in the narrative?

Personally, I don't discredit the meta perspective as a conscious component in Gosho's mislead tactics, however, the narrative always takes the front row when it comes to misleading the reader for Gosho,... and so with that being said, I can't really see how someone like Kuroda, who is neither fully exonerated in the narrative nor freed from continuous Rum portrayals, can end up becoming Rum.

But that's exactly it. He has too much in common with the man who turned out to be it last arc. Because the last arc was the Bourbon arc, Kanenori (a man whose affability hides intellect, who insists on becoming Kogorō's apprentice, just after becoming employed by a place located right next to the Mōri Detective Agency) turning out to be Rum is the least surprising option.

Ah, but he's the only one who has had the characters, themselves, explicitly exonerate him (925/822)—at least, that's my interpretation of the opening scene of that file/episode, and it's significance.

As of right now, with Rumi (who has been revealed to have witnessed someone say/imply to Kōji Haneda that they'll kill him, or was the one who said/implied such a threat to him; and has been shown to do violent things and say sinister things with a smile) and Kanenori (who is too much like the Bourbon suspect who turned out to be Bourbon) as his fellow Rum suspects, I have to concur with zerozaki that Hyōe's our man. It's not that Hyōe isn't portrayed as suspicious—it's that his fellows are portrayed as even more suspicious.

[Zerozaki4869]

What I find quite hilarious here is the misuse of the word "narrative."
Narrative means part of the story, that's all.
So concerning the current discourse,
a) The narrative exonerates Hoye big time. Firstly after he appeared Conan described him as "A suspicious man at first but in the end his actions were to ensure that justice is done." when Haibara asked about what really had been the matter with Kuroda.
b) Thanks to correct translation it is now universal that Kuroda was introduced an NPA guy with cognizance of Conan's abilities during his intro.
c) The very next case ensures that Haibara clears him off the scent and rationalizes that why he can't be Rum/BO member.
d) When he calls to Bourbon, the whole context of the call is made clear by mentioning of that "serial policewoman murder case." Also his stalking of Rumi can be attributed to the vigilant NPA officer doing his job.
e) When Kuroda calls to Komei , Komei behaves in fashion as if he doesn't know Rei.
So if anyone is really following the narrative, Hyoe is cleared off and his clearing off came step by step, mentioned with in the story.
The points a, b and c clearly sets the tone and any suspicious portrayal of Kuroda hasn't challenged this tone rather confirmed it.

Rumi has been portrayed as volatile, sadistic, morally grey, incriminating flashbacks, with APTX list and a possible trigger of Haibara. Haibara doesn't exonerate Rumi, rather tells Conan that Rumi is a good person and she won't tolerate badmouthing about her.(which is not a rational statment rather an emotional one, unlike Kuroda's case.)
As far as the story goes not a single character has shown anything coherent to exonerate Rumi from this certain charges.

Kanenori is being modelled after Bourbon and doing everything in Bourbonish way. He is just the rehash of Bourbon and has shown to be very much interested in Shinichi with no reason. Unlike Hoye there is no concious storytelling going on to exonerate Kanenori.

Instead non-Hoye narrative of this arc are incriminating Kanenori and Rumi while the Hoye narrative is exonerating Hoye.

TBF Hoye's innocence is stated clearly while Kanenori and Rumi's guilt is implied in a over the top fashion.

That is the narrative. The narrative doesn't make Hoye Rum, rather Rum's enemy aka Tsutomu by process of elimination.

What I find pretty common is that people use Conan's and Haibara's words/deductions out of the manga and claim that it was their(readers') interpretation not the narrative.

[blackmoon]

Well couple more things to take note that may indirectly relate to RUM's identity:

1. The Akai family left England after Tsutomu was said to have ran into trouble due to the Kohji case. If they were neither aware of the existence of B.O. nor the identity of RUM, then for what reason did they conclude that Mary being a MI6 in England would still be unsafe and unable to protect the family with the backing of the secret organization there (surely Mary should also have connections with other MI6 secret agents?)

2. For what reason did they conclude that Japan is the better choice for them to go into hiding? Perhaps because of Tsutomu despite how he went missing would also be hiding himself in Japan?

3. Why did Mary went back to England to meet with Tsutomu (and was also shrank during the trip there) was she so easy to fall for a trap or setup by B.O. despite all her secret agent training? Or perhaps there maybe a mole or traitor in M16 as well who fooled her into going back?

So... England is unsafe for the Akai family while Japan is safe in comparison, how could that be if RUM have already been operating and making connections in Japan 17 years ago?

[Zerozaki4869]

1) During one of the recent cases in a flashback of Rei, Atsushi reveals to Elena that "Your sister has told us about Karasuma gorup, that group is shady." So it is very likely that Akais already had some idea about BO.

2) I think the reason being that finding naturalized Japanese people in UK is way easier than finding ethnic Japanese brought up in UK in Japan. Also the reason I think Tsutomu urged Mary to move is that "Tsutomu was infiltrating Bo under an assumed identity." and if his cover were to blow up his family can remain safe in Japan as they would be pretty easy to get found out in UK.(If Tsutomu's cover were to blow they would also know that Tsutomu holds a UK passport which will ensure that they search of his family in UK and not in Japan.)

3) I think it was a trap set up be Rum. Rum from some sources must have got the info that there was a detective chasing after him named Tsutomu and who incidentally had a family currently living in London. The best way of getting this info is from Kohji's dad. If Rum has easy access inside Haneda family as some sort of a reliable family friend then this can happen. Cause the other way is the cover blow up/suspicion on Tsutomu which makes no sense cause Tsutomu Akai is now considered legally dead. It's not easy to prove someone who is alive is legally dead let alone the suspicion.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

What I find quite hilarious here is the misuse of the word "narrative."
Narrative means part of the story, that's all.
So concerning the current discourse,
a) The narrative exonerates Hoye big time. Firstly after he appeared Conan described him as "A suspicious man at first but in the end his actions were to ensure that justice is done." when Haibara asked about what really had been the matter with Kuroda.
b) Thanks to correct translation it is now universal that Kuroda was introduced an NPA guy with cognizance of Conan's abilities during his intro.
c) The very next case ensures that Haibara clears him off the scent and rationalizes that why he can't be Rum/BO member.
d) When he calls to Bourbon, the whole context of the call is made clear by mentioning of that "serial policewoman murder case." Also his stalking of Rumi can be attributed to the vigilant NPA officer doing his job.
e) When Kuroda calls to Komei , Komei behaves in fashion as if he doesn't know Rei.
So if anyone is really following the narrative, Hyoe is cleared off and his clearing off came step by step, mentioned with in the story.
The points a, b and c clearly sets the tone and any suspicious portrayal of Kuroda hasn't challenged this tone rather confirmed it.

Rumi has been portrayed as volatile, sadistic, morally grey, incriminating flashbacks, with APTX list and a possible trigger of Haibara. Haibara doesn't exonerate Rumi, rather tells Conan that Rumi is a good person and she won't tolerate badmouthing about her.(which is not a rational statment rather an emotional one, unlike Kuroda's case.)
As far as the story goes not a single character has shown anything coherent to exonerate Rumi from this certain charges.

Kanenori is being modelled after Bourbon and doing everything in Bourbonish way. He is just the rehash of Bourbon and has shown to be very much interested in Shinichi with no reason. Unlike Hoye there is no concious storytelling going on to exonerate Kanenori.

Instead non-Hoye narrative of this arc are incriminating Kanenori and Rumi while the Hoye narrative is exonerating Hoye.

TBF Hoye's innocence is stated clearly while Kanenori and Rumi's guilt is implied in a over the top fashion.

That is the narrative. The narrative doesn't make Hoye Rum, rather Rum's enemy aka Tsutomu by process of elimination.

What I find pretty common is that people use Conan's and Haibara's words/deductions out of the manga and claim that it was their(readers') interpretation not the narrative.

The only other person who could've triggered Shiho's/Ai's BO radar in 987/909... is Hyōe, who was watching Rumi from a nearby tent.

And what led Hyōe to stalk Rumi led Kanenori to... not approach her, at all. Hyōe connected her to the Kōji case and made to investigate her at first opportunity. Kanenori praised her, calling her quick-witted—he praised her for publicizing herself. And what does publicizing yourself do? Get attention. And whose attention did she then quickly get? Hyōe's. Since then, Kanenori has remained in close proximity to Kogorō. Rum certainly has interest in the Kōji case and any potential loose ends—even when Rumi's running about, Kanenori's priority doesn't stray away from being around Kogorō. This helps inform me that Kanenori's priorities don't align with Rum's.

At this point, Rumi's tendency to do violent things with a smile was well-established, and the case that got Hyōe's attention also made Shinichi/Conan suspicious of Rumi for the first time, leading to Shinichi's/Conan's thought process about Rumi being explicitly revealed to us... since then, she revealed that in addition to letting a murder happen so she could get Shinichi/Conan involved in it, she'd say disturbing things with a smile, that she had problems with her right eye, and then dismissed Ayumi's sincere goodwill towards her in a flash (tossing that clover away is like getting a present from someone and then, as soon as you're out of their sight, throwing it in the trash). If nothing else, Rumi is definitely in the Jodie/Subaru role.

Meanwhile, since the Burning Tent case, Hyōe wanted Shinichi/Conan to get additional info so he could solve a serial murder case (1,013–1,017). Apart from investigating Rumi personally, Hyōe has refrained from doing on the ground fieldwork, which is what Rumi and Kanenori have been doing, primarily—instead, he's given orders to his subordinates (the Nagano trio, the Tokyo MPD Homicide Division, and Rei). Making an exception after learning someone is connected to the Kōji case? Sounds like someone who shares Rum's priorities. And this investigation he did was in the woods, away from the public eye... unlike the last investigation the BO launched into a potential loose end from the Kōji case—launching an investigation into a person for writing lyrics, rather than launching an investigation into a person after merely seeing them—to deal with a publicized musician on his home turf, with witnesses aplenty, Bourbon and Vermouth were sent in. If Hyōe went there, himself, he'd stick out like a sore thumb—where he could use Ninzaburo's suggestion to take a vacation as cover with the tent case, he'd have no such cover for the Rokumichi case. Unlike with Rumi and Kanenori, Hyōe uses no affable façade—with Kanenori, I'd expect, "I'm a Rokumichi Hado fan!" But with Hyōe? I think not. Plus, compare the potential witnesses between those two cases.

And after all this, we still haven't reached the big reveal moment. With Rumi's portrayal, she's out of the running. That leaves us with Kanenori and Hyōe. Kanenori is someone whose objectives don't seem to line up with Rum's, and has too many similarities with Rei. That leaves us with Hyōe. By my current estimation, Gosho is lining us up for the reveal that the seemingly least distrustworthy of the three, the police officer—just like the seemingly trustworthy doctor in the Vermouth arc—is our guy.

[MeiTanteixX]

By my current estimation, Gosho is lining us up for the reveal that the seemingly least distrustworthy of the three, the police officer—just like the seemingly trustworthy doctor in the Vermouth arc—is our guy.

Key difference there though. Bourbon (as Amuro Tooru) & Vermouth (as Araide Tomoaki) was the "seemingly trustworthy", compared to Kuroda's "least distrustworthy" (which I would btw attribute to Wakita between the 3, if we are talking about the protagonists' trust, rather than the reader's).
Gosho always made sure that there was no obvious suspicion thrown to the main antagonist by the protagonists, and if he brought up the truth as an option, like in the case of Kir arc with Mizunashi-Eisuke blood relation, he made sure it was fully dismissed with evidence, so that there's an actual twist value to it being true.

I wouldn't call Kuroda fully exonerated until Conan actively treats him as a dependable ally and/or verbally dismisses any chances of him being Rum with good reasons. In your said reference from File 925, Conan never settled down his suspicion on him like Haibara, but advised that they stay cautious around him, which is far from being fully exonerated. This is very similar to how Heiji was dismissing Jodie as Chris Vineyard, and Conan highlighting that they can't be too sure (File 343).

These details are very important take note of imo.

[DCUniverseAficionado]

By my current estimation, Gosho is lining us up for the reveal that the seemingly least distrustworthy of the three, the police officer—just like the seemingly trustworthy doctor in the Vermouth arc—is our guy.

Key difference there though. Bourbon (as Amuro Tooru) & Vermouth (as Araide Tomoaki) was the "seemingly trustworthy", compared to Kuroda's "least distrustworthy" (which I would btw attribute to Wakita between the 3, if we are talking about the protagonists' trust, rather than the reader's).
Gosho always made sure that there was no obvious suspicion thrown to the main antagonist by the protagonists, and if he brought up the truth as an option, like in the case of Kir arc with Mizunashi-Eisuke blood relation, he made sure it was fully dismissed with evidence, so that there's an actual twist value to it being true.

I wouldn't call Kuroda fully exonerated until Conan actively treats him as a dependable ally and/or verbally dismisses any chances of him being Rum with good reasons. In your said reference from File 925, Conan never settled down his suspicion on him like Haibara, but advised that they stay cautious around him, which is far from being fully exonerated. This is very similar to how Heiji was dismissing Jodie as Chris Vineyard, and Conan highlighting that they can't be too sure (File 343).

These details are very important take note of imo.

But here's the thing—Hyōe's the only one who's had a moment like that. As zerozaki pointed out, Shiho's/Ai's acceptance of Rumi is emotion-based, not evidence-based, as was the case with Hyōe.

Now—the distinction I made that you quickly jumped on. I think the Rum arc's just different from the Vermouth arc. We don't have to account for characters introduced before the arc being impersonated by the arc's titular character (i.e., Tomoaki Araide). That's why I'd describe the disguised Vermouth as "seemingly trustworthy," and Hyōe as "the least distrustworthy."

I'm fairly confident in thinking Rumi's not going to turn out to be Rum. Kanenori turning out to be Rum is the Bourbon arc on repeat—I think we can both agree that it is not our preference that Gosho choose this option. That leaves Hyōe and a potential fourth suspect (i.e., Muga Iori).

So make your case—why is Rum Muga Iori and not Hyōe Kuroda?

[blackmoon]

Hmm... anyways, i kinda miss the clash between Jodie and Heiji where they were both able to pick up the minute details through their language usage... so we would assume RUM is somewhat of an English speaker based on the short text that was sent to Bourbon... and if you really take the element of Bourbon commenting about RUM being impatient into account... Rei must have known RUM in person.

[Zerozaki4869]

Just to mention a couple of points.

In Bourbon arc Subaru was shown to be most Bourbon like yet at the same time most trustworthy(if you follow the initial interaction between Conan and Subaru.)
It was such a circlejerk that people even started to think that Conan wants to observe Bourbon so he created this shit, the most believed character turned out to be Scar Akai and people even shoved off the handedness evidence of Scar Akai.

In Rum arc we see there are two types of suspects.
a) Type-1 : Kuroda and Rumi. They are operating in a suspicious manner right under the nose of the protagonist and the reader.
b) Type-2 : Wakita. He is only suspicious to readers and don't indulge much with the protaginits, even if he does he ensures that he isn't suspicious like the former two. He has the biggest baggage of meta-hints/misdirections to be Rum.

Now when we consider Kuroda and Rumi, both of them come off as Jodie/Masumi like suspects.(Conan knew nothing about them and they are operating in front of Conan) here Kuroda gets exonerated at the expense of Rumi. The things which really should be a character certificate for Rumi are used against her.
She is shown with a particular pattern of scars, more on her left hand less on her right hand. More on her outer upper arms. Which ensures a fight with knife wielding opponent. Now she has the APTX list but which she takes out after Shinichi is supposedly sighted. Why would she do that unless she is making some 2+2=4, i.e. APTX can shrink and Conan is very likely Shinichi. Any old/rehashed character who knows Conan's secret won't behave like that, mean she is a new kid on the block.
Haibara after getting triggered even considered whether Rumi is blind in one eye or not. So she was already considering that Rumi is Rum(the worst possible outcome) yet just one act of kindness(which was shrouded in lunacy and destabilising behaviour) gets her on Haibara's good book?
Answer is Haibara knows that despite her behaviour Rumi is not one of them, rather someone who might have shared some history with her family/parents.( I do have a lowkey idea that she is a sister of Haibara's dad and somehow is related also to Kohji)
Now Rumi gets entangled cause Haibara's overt rationalization of how Kuroda can't be Rum.

Here is we follow the idea that we can see Jodie/Araide were paired together. Haibara gets triggered, Jodie takes the blame cause she is the one portrayed with more suspicious behaviour which is directly pointed out and not Araide whose suspicious behaviours are to be deduced by the reader.
Here we see a similar Rumi/Kuroda pairing while Wakita playing the waiting game.