Chekhov's theories about the plot

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Spimer » May 26th, 2016, 6:52 am

@Themaninarmor: that was at the very start of the manga, y'know. Gosho still intended for the series to be a parody hence why the interaction with the old man is handled as a gag. He surely didn't think much of it, apart from being the usual suspect amongst many of being Gin and Vodka's receiver of the deal.

So I'd say we can discard him because he's just a gag character: and it's not like the BO boss would be in the same train Gin and Vodka planned to blow up, would he/she?
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » May 28th, 2016, 4:49 am

unclesporkums wrote:I'm sick of the Ai lookalikes.


Plural? As in, there's more than one?
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby unclesporkums » May 28th, 2016, 9:40 am

The idea of another one besides MG. Even one is too much for me.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » May 28th, 2016, 10:27 pm

unclesporkums wrote:The idea of another one besides MG. Even one is too much for me.


I guess Mary just came too late, then. Shiho/Ai brought up the idea of there being more APTX survivors in 179/129 (1997/1999)... we didn't get Mary until 875/756 (2013/2014), which was towards the end of the Bourbon arc, of all things.

I really don't think there'll be another one—I get, after the Bourbon arc, the idea that Gosho will just keep finding ways to extend the series, but I just don't see another female APTX victim being one of them. Even before the Bourbon arc, he'd just keep dragging on things that had gone unresolved since the first 3 arcs. Look at Shinichi/Ran—it's been over 200 files since Holmes' Revelation, and that was in the middle of the Bourbon arc.

And honestly, while one can say that things can always get worse—and it is true, they can—I just don't see how Gosho's going to go any lower than the Bourbon arc. Just name a bunch of things Gosho could do that would make DC much worse. I'd probably list most of them as "improbable."
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby unclesporkums » May 28th, 2016, 11:27 pm

I beg to differ, but then again, I've already stopped following the story months ago. Back to the topic, it still looks like it could get lower to me, given the recent developments, but you've already scolded me about that. I still personally don't care for the Mary/Haibara copycat development, and would have preferred at least a different personality type for another shrunken kid, say the Boss (if this theory is true).
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby DCUniverseAficionado » May 29th, 2016, 12:37 am

unclesporkums wrote:it still looks like it could get lower to me, given the recent developments, but you've already scolded me about that. I still personally don't care for the Mary/Haibara copycat development, and would have preferred at least a different personality type for another shrunken kid, say the Boss (if this theory is true).


I'll say it, again—name a bunch of things Gosho could do that would make DC much worse. I wasn't trying to come off as "holier than thou"—I apologize if that's how you read it.

They're physical copycats, except for the pupils and the style and color of hair, and this is Gosho, even years after his most glaringly-obvious character design uses. Personality wise? Mary seems to be even more stoic than her oldest son (minus that cute moment because of her other son), and sarcastic quips? None to speak of. Plus, she can take out someone twice her size and a couple times her weight as a twelve to fifteen year old in one blow. I'd say they're distinct—enough, at least.
“Life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of man could invent. We would not dare to conceive the things which are really mere commonplaces of existence. If we could fly out of that window hand in hand, hover over this great city, gently remove the roofs, and and peep in at the queer things which are going on, the strange coincidences, the plannings, the cross-purposes, the wonderful chains of events, working through generations, and leading to the most outre results, it would make all fiction with its conventionalities and foreseen conclusions most stale and unprofitable.”
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby unclesporkums » June 9th, 2016, 9:16 pm

I wonder if the hypothetical Boss' hypothetical love interest would be a new character, or an established figure who's appeared once or a few times.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Ethereall » June 10th, 2016, 9:30 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Serinox wrote:" 明美と志保は、実の姉妹だよーー(笑)。 --- Akemi and Shiho are real/true/full blood sisters (laugh). "
Spoiler:
Image
I know of that postcard, but I don't think 実の is clear enough - it means biological, but not specifically full. My understanding is that Gosho avoided the unambiguous word for fullblood siblings which is 兄弟姉妹 (keiteishimai). I also did some searches earlier on how Japanese talk about blood relationships (they have more specific terms than in English probably because of the way they kept records), and I noticed that at least one response did use "実の" to talk about step-siblings (胤違い tanechigai ) which shared one parent. (Assuming I am reading the Japanese right. Take a look for yourself.)

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:I mentioned in an earlier post that "Keiteishimai" 兄弟姉妹 seems to be the most used term for full siblings in Japanese, but I encountered at least one instance while hunting where it was used for a not full sibling situation. The use of the double-barrel term 実の兄弟(姉妹) in Japanese suggests that 実の is definitely not enough to mean full by itself, so to be extra clear it must be stacked with 兄弟姉妹.


Just thought I should respond to these. 兄弟姉妹 literally means siblings, it's only used when you want to say "siblings" but not specificially what type of siblings (eg. I have 5 siblings = I have 5 兄弟姉妹).

兄 - elder brother
弟 - younger brother
姉 - elder sister
妹 - younger sister

Therefore a combination of all characters indicate siblings in general, but any 2 character combination comprised of one 'elder' and one 'younger' can be used to indicate the type of relationship. Shuu and Masumi would be 兄妹 (elder brother + younger sister), Ai and Akemi would be 姉妹 (sisters), as Gosho used in his postcard. These characters don't specify whether they're biological/adopted/etc, which is why Gosho added 実の in front of 姐妹, which translates to "real sisters". Since we know they're both females and are thus sisters, it'd make no sense to use 実の兄弟姉妹 instead of just 実の姉妹.

However I don't speak Japanese myself, so I'm not sure whether Gosho really meant full biological sisters or it can also be twisted to mean only blood-related sisters, but usually when someone says "she's your real sister", you'd think she's your full biological sister, wouldn't you? If Ai and Akemi's parents are of different race, then it's common for the children to look quite different from each other due to genetic diversity within the family. (But of course there's still the question of why they were treated differently, etc, I'll leave that to Gosho)
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Chekhov MacGuffin » June 10th, 2016, 5:12 pm

Ethereall wrote:Therefore a combination of all characters indicate siblings in general, but any 2 character combination comprised of one 'elder' and one 'younger' can be used to indicate the type of relationship. Shuu and Masumi would be 兄妹 (elder brother + younger sister), Ai and Akemi would be 姉妹 (sisters), as Gosho used in his postcard. These characters don't specify whether they're biological/adopted/etc, which is why Gosho added 実の in front of 姐妹, which translates to "real sisters". Since we know they're both females and are thus sisters, it'd make no sense to use 実の兄弟姉妹 instead of just 実の姉妹.
That's useful to know. I'll have to repeat my analysis at a later date. I think the wording needs the insight of a Japanese native speaker because I'm not really up to the task.

Ethereall wrote:but usually when someone says "she's your real sister", you'd think she's your full biological sister, wouldn't you?
Not at all really. As a native English speaker, I'd be confused and think, "Did you think she was a friend pretending to be sisters with me???" If you asked me what relationships would qualify as "real sisters/true sisters" in English, I'd allow anything from completely unrelated stepgirls brought together by second marriages to full sisters currently separated by divorce. I'd be offended if you said my half or step sister wasn't a real sister/true sister (at least until you explained what you really meant). Real/true are perceptive terms (e.g Do I consider this person to be my sibling?), which is an orthogonal axis to descriptive terms like full, half, step, unrelated, etc. (What percentage of genes do we share?)

Japanese culture and English-speaking cultures place emphasis on different things when describing blood relationships. The English language emphasizes the quantitative net degree of consanguinity with its terminology. Full = both parents, Half = one parent, step = generally unrelated but bound by remarriage. Then you get into the realm of first cousins, seconds, and once removed, etc. Japanese speakers seem to favor more qualitative descriptions of relations with an emphasis on birth order and gender, which is why you get separate terms for gendered sibling pairs and which parent halves share in common.

In English, "Are Akemi and Shiho full (biological) sisters?" has a very precise meaning, but since Japanese has different priorities, it is possible their terms allow more wiggle room. Most of the time Gosho gives an obvious non-answer when he can't reply to a question without spoiling, but I think it is reasonable to worry about him giving a "technically right" answer that may wind up misinterpreted.

I wouldn't be so suspicious of this postcard answer if it didn't mean incest. Gosho is the type of person who like to purge most moral ambiguity from his protagonists. For a standard case culprit, Gosho is willing to show more moral flexibility, but it would be a huge leap for a character in the top five favs to date his first cousin. That's not to say Gosho won't do it, but the precedent is so ... lame.
1) The darkest protag so far is drug maker Haibara, whom Conan outright called a murderer, although she never used APTX on anyone herself (Numabuchi conveniently escaped) and was noted to be opposed to any human testing. As Haibara, she had the **audacity** to prioritize her own (and her friends') safety first rather rush into cases that could expose her. In Gosholand, it is wrong to show behavioral symptoms associated with the psychological damage of growing up in an organization of amoral killers who forced Shiho to make a lethal drug after rushing her through higher education in her formative years.
2) Heiji was immoral because he was too competitive and came to a reasonable but wrong conclusion. Also in Gosholand, it is Heiji's fault if the solution to a case turns out to hurt the murderer's feelings so much that they decide all on their own to kill themselves. If a murderer decides to fling himself into a burning building to die because he feels guilty for his sins, that's 100% the detective's fault.
3) Sera Masumi thought it was a good idea to let the Tokyo SWAT team do their job and snipe a murderous hostage-taker with a suicide vest. This is wrong in Gosho-land because she should have gambled that she could solve the case and the solution wouldn't trigger the obviously unstable man to kill someone or have a breakdown and blow everyone up just because.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby ALAKTORN » June 11th, 2016, 10:42 am

Sex with a cousin is considered incest? I thought that was far enough apart.

Japanese opinion:
[16:35:49] *: 実の姉妹 is antonymous to 義理の姉妹
[16:36:13] *: [16:33] ALAKTORN:
<<< does it mean full-blood relationship? same father and mother?
yes, I think that's exactly what it means
[16:36:42] ALAKTORN: hmm but could it mean that they’re just blood-related to their father and not the mother?
[16:36:45] ALAKTORN: and viceversa?
[16:37:20] ALAKTORN: antonymous to giri no shimai sounds like a partial blood-relationship, for example only with the father or only with the mother would be correct too
[16:37:21] *: [16:36] ALAKTORN:
<<< hmm but could it mean that they’re just blood-related to their father and not the mother?
yeah maybe, this is about which I'm not sure
[16:37:28] ALAKTORN: oh I see
[16:37:38] ALAKTORN: x_x
[16:39:58] *: but I think if its a partial blood-relationship, we would always say 腹違いの姉妹 or 種違いの姉妹.

Edit:
[16:43:09] *: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/98275/meaning/m0u/
[16:43:37] *: probably 実の suggests full-blood relationship.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Serinox » June 11th, 2016, 11:15 am

ALAKTORN wrote:Sex with a cousin is considered incest? I thought that was far enough apart.

Nowadays it varies from culture to culture, but yeah, I'd consider that incest. Legally it's fine in Japan (one of the recent prime ministers was married to his first cousin for example), but I heard it is looked down upon these days. In the first big Conan case, the cruise ship case, Conan, Ran and Kogoro reacted with shock to a cousin marriage there, so Gosho seems to consider it kind of incest as well.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby ALAKTORN » June 11th, 2016, 12:30 pm

Googled a little bit and found another term too: 異母兄弟 ibokyōdai, half-sibling with a different mother, used right before 腹違いの親 (harachigai no oya) which means the same thing. Also Wikipedia says that 兄弟姉妹 is for full-blood siblings only (同じ父と母から生まれた子供たちの総称).
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Ethereall » June 13th, 2016, 11:20 am

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
Ethereall wrote:but usually when someone says "she's your real sister", you'd think she's your full biological sister, wouldn't you?
Not at all really. As a native English speaker, I'd be confused and think, "Did you think she was a friend pretending to be sisters with me???" If you asked me what relationships would qualify as "real sisters/true sisters" in English, I'd allow anything from completely unrelated stepgirls brought together by second marriages to full sisters currently separated by divorce. I'd be offended if you said my half or step sister wasn't a real sister/true sister (at least until you explained what you really meant). Real/true are perceptive terms (e.g Do I consider this person to be my sibling?), which is an orthogonal axis to descriptive terms like full, half, step, unrelated, etc. (What percentage of genes do we share?)

Japanese culture and English-speaking cultures place emphasis on different things when describing blood relationships. The English language emphasizes the quantitative net degree of consanguinity with its terminology. Full = both parents, Half = one parent, step = generally unrelated but bound by remarriage. Then you get into the realm of first cousins, seconds, and once removed, etc. Japanese speakers seem to favor more qualitative descriptions of relations with an emphasis on birth order and gender, which is why you get separate terms for gendered sibling pairs and which parent halves share in common.

In English, "Are Akemi and Shiho full (biological) sisters?" has a very precise meaning, but since Japanese has different priorities, it is possible their terms allow more wiggle room. Most of the time Gosho gives an obvious non-answer when he can't reply to a question without spoiling, but I think it is reasonable to worry about him giving a "technically right" answer that may wind up misinterpreted.

I suppose it all depends on the context. Say if someone suspects that your sister is adopted for some reason, saying that she's your real sister would be sufficient to get your point across without delving into scientific terms. It's the same with Gosho. Based on his answer, the question was obviously something along the lines of "Are Shiho and Akemi really sisters?". It's a very generic question, so Gosho can get away with giving a generic answer in return, but I'd find his answer deceiving if they're actually half-sisters. Because even if the question is generic, the implication behind the question is clear - people generally think full siblings when they say "siblings".
"Are they really siblings?" = mentally -> "Are they full siblings?"
Since step/half-siblings are more specific, the asker will word the question in a more specific manner if they have step/half-siblings in mind - "Are they full siblings?", instead of just "Are they really siblings?". It's more of a language thing instead of cultural difference. Therefore if Gosho is honest, then Ai and Akemi are full sisters. If he's going for a twist, then they're half-sisters or something else.

I wouldn't be so suspicious of this postcard answer if it didn't mean incest. Gosho is the type of person who like to purge most moral ambiguity from his protagonists.

Oh well, maybe it'll just end up justified by something like Akai and Akemi not knowing they're cousins, plus the fact that she's dead and so the relationship is technically dead anyway. That or Ai and Akemi are indeed half-sisters, or maybe it's a red herring and they're not related afterall. I guess we'll just have to see where Gosho's going with those, all I can say is that it better be good, with all that twist and complications he's throwing in that involves my top 2 favourite characters.

ALAKTORN wrote:Also Wikipedia says that 兄弟姉妹 is for full-blood siblings only (同じ父と母から生まれた子供たちの総称).

I'm not sure that definition isn't just a general definition for what siblings mean, since 兄弟姉妹 literally means siblings, or 'brothers and sisters'. The specifics are the specifics, and "sibling" is a very generic term.
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby Nemomon » July 21st, 2016, 8:26 am

About the siblings relationships, I would like to mention one other thing. It is probably unrelated to this case, but maybe it is not. In Poland the meaning of "sister" (or brother) is larger than in the English. In Poland a sister is not only a woman born from the same mother and father. In Poland a sister is also a daughter of my parent's siblings. So, if my uncle has a daughter, she is also my sister. We sometimes add another word to specify the blood relation - "birth sister" means a sister from my own parents, and "aunt's/uncle's sister" means a sister from my aunt/uncle. This also indicates who is my parent's relative, if it is a brother (and his wife is from a different family) we use uncle's sister. And if vice versa, then it is aunt's sister.

It could be that Gosho saying that Akemi and Shiho are sisters could mean something different. Not necessarily that they're from the same mother and father, but for example from different parents that by blood are related either to Elena or to Atsushi. Though, that's probably not the case (though, from the other side seems like in Japan people can "join" families and become their parts from now on, so who knows...).
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Re: Chekhov's theories about the plot

Postby ATEM » July 21st, 2016, 9:46 am

A twin brother and sister dating was really hard but he did it.. so it's not impossible for cousins to date if he intended to
Any way cousins marriage varies by culture it is completely acceptable in some , looked down to in others and considered incest and illegal in others .. cousins marriage was acceptable in nearly all cultures a few centuries before and is still legal in many countries despite being looked down to by the society ..
I don't prefer cousins marriage at least because of it's harms ... but in a case like akemi and akai they were in love they didn't know and even if they did then maybe they would have faced the society like what happened in the hatamoto's case and last akemi is already dead ..
I 'd like akemi and Hiabara to be full sisters that is much better than making the whole plot based upon complicated family issues like who is the mother of whom and who is the sister of whom and so on .. but since conan has thought of akemi and akai dating when he discovered the similarity between haibara and the mysterious girl so he is putting cousins dating into considerations and won't make akai that he had dated his cousin ...

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