Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-898: Scarlet Series!

Forum reserved for discussing specific points of the story—mostly from the manga. Be warned, these discussions will be current with the manga and will spoil many plot lines for anime-centric fans.
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AICHAN
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by AICHAN »

Jd- wrote:
Kor wrote:
Spoiler:
So far this is my only explanation: Everyone was being stupid and reckless in the Train Case. It's only miraculous that it worked so well for Conan.
That case is why I can't rule out Yusaku disguising as Okiya at this moment. It sounds dumb, but so does "Conan and his friends going on a train potentially filled with B.O. agents", or "Conan finding Kaito Kid and persuading him to disguise as Shiho".
I also want to note something else about the Mystery Train here. If we're sure that Amuro would have worked his way to Okiya, why would we not expect him to maybe think the whole thing was a setup? He has no real reason to believe that Shiho died there that day given that the guy he is chasing just revealed that their side is pretty good at faking deaths. Akai appearing there should be a bit of a red flag that maybe--just maybe--not everything is as it seems and maybe--just maybe--everything was a bit too convenient for their side as well. That would mean Amuro may not buy the Shiho death shenanigans and the entire thing would be wasted anyway. I'm really, really hoping there's some unseen angle to it that tidies up that case.
I hope so as well...If he is so sure that Akai was the one who threw the grenade then Amuro must think that Shiho's death could be faked.That would be nice to have a dicussion between Amuro and Ai in order to clear up his relationship with Elena.
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Spoiler:
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

aly_angelflight wrote:Geez, Vermouth, you should know that you can't fire a shotgun with one hand in your pocket... Obvious lie much? ::)
Spoiler: Shuichi Akai shoots from the hip... with a shotgun
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So I did some shower thinking about this whole mess, and I think I was over-complicating it.

Team Shin-chan would really like it if Bourbon came to the conclusion that Okiya was not Akai, because at least that would keep him from having proof to show Akai faked his death. Hiding Okiya isn't going to solve the problem and will only make Bourbon more suspicious and likely to recruit help. (They might also like to neutralize Bourbon to prevent leaking, but that is a different issue.) Assuming they somehow know Bourbon is going to come over and pay Okiya a visit (that is a big if, but hey, it's only the first chapter), the simplest way to have Bourbon come to conclusion that Okiya is not Akai is to have someone else disguise as Okiya. Bourbon can't manipulate someone who isn't Akai into being Akai. The problem is that team Shin-chan needs that someone else to be able to do a convincing job and hopefully not be unmaskable in case Bourbon decides to get grabby. Of the people on Team Shin-chan that could pass as Okiya with minimal disguise adjustments, like not having a mask, the only one is Yuusaku. They have similar builds and face shapes, which was pointed out when everyone was still arguing Okiya's about identity back into 2009 and 2010. All that is left is to have some way of allowing Shuuichi to pass details to Yuusaku in case Bourbon asks about something Yuusaku wasn't around for. That is where the mask might come in so, along with listening devices around the house.
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Kudo Shinchi
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Kudo Shinchi »

@Jd- My understanding of what happened there is that Conan and Akai had figured out Amuro's plan as well as the fact that the carriage that Amuro planned to hold Shiho in was filled with bombs. Amuro originally intended to disconnect the cabin with Shiho and the bombs in it from the main train so that it would be left alone on the tracks, and then Shiho would be picked up from a helicopter with Amuro's assistants. Vermouth knew that was Amuro's plan, and took the opportunity to load it with C4 so that when Amuro carried out his plan, Shiho would end up blowing up with the dislocated train cart. Amuro wasn't aware of this, but Akai and Conan were, which is why they adjusted their plan to fit in. Right before Amuro was about to sever the last carriage from the rest of the main train body, however, KID ran his mouth and revealed to Amuro that the cabin was loaded with explosives, prompting Amuro at that instant to modify his plan so that Shiho would remain with him and not be blown up with the C4. Akai was probably watching over this from nearby to ensure the success of the plan, and once he saw that Amuro was not, in fact, going to leave Shiho on the carriage with the bombs (thus foiling Conan's plan) he acted to make sure it was severed anyways, right after KID locked himself in. Throwing the grenade here was a must for the faking-Shiho's-death plot to succeed. Akai had to open the door and see where he was aiming to properly throw the grenade, and since he was mostly concealed by smoke, was wearing a hat, was difficult to see, and moved very quickly, it was a risk he could take. Bourbon only got a brief glimpse at his silhouette. Unfortunately for Akai (and everyone else) that was enough for Bourbon to become suspicious of what he had seen, and open his investigation into Akai's death with new rigor. None of this would have been necessary if KID had kept his mouth shut.

I think that's the gist of it. I could have misunderstood something, so correct me if I did. Gosho never informed the audience what Conan and Akai's plan was when they got on the train, so until he reveals it, if he ever does, we're left to infer from what took place.
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Jd-
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Jd- »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:
aly_angelflight wrote:Geez, Vermouth, you should know that you can't fire a shotgun with one hand in your pocket... Obvious lie much? ::)
Spoiler: Shuichi Akai shoots from the hip... with a shotgun
Image
Best panel here is the one in the lower left, where Akai's holding the shotgun out with one hand like it's no big thang.

I never really thought much about it at the time as I was more shocked at Akai's appearance, but... Akai came as Okiya on the train, despite knowing that the Black Organization would also appear. That alone seems very odd. If I recall, Conan & company didn't have a lot of prep time (though apparently did have enough time for Yukiko there; can't remember what was said about that), yet it seems to me the worst thing Okiya could possibly do is appear without doing anything to obscure his new identity in some form. He didn't definitively know that Amuro was Bourbon at that time, but I would say that it'd be quite risky to voluntarily go somewhere where he knows the Black Org will appear without at least getting a nice hat. Even if he had 10% suspicion that Amuro could be working for them after that brief glance at him, it just doesn't seem logical for things to play out as they did.

As soon as the Black Org saw Okiya, he'd forever have to be especially careful going forward as the jig would be up if he were ever spotted in the same place as them ever again. It really is odd that their side didn't come into it planning against the possibility that it could have long-lasting repercussions if any Black Org agent noticed him there.

Also: Kid's involvement there is still my least favorite event in the entire canon.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by irishock »

lol I love the Mystery Train bashing. Biggest disappointment in the series
Last edited by irishock on April 19th, 2014, 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kudo Shinchi
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Kudo Shinchi »

I'm still a bit baffled by what exactly happened on the Mystery Train, and especially what happened in the lead-up to it. I like the case more than most around here and have defended it in the past, but I can't deny that figuring out what was going through the minds of Conan and Akai as they boarded the train is very confusing. Was their original plan always to use KID to fake Shiho's death, or was it something else and they simply threw together something different at the last second when they discovered KID was on the train? Besides, the plan to fake Shiho's death in its final form involved KID's presence as well as Vermouth's act of loading the carriage with explosives, variables that no one could have foreseen with absolute certainty. There are hints scattered throughout the case that they had a plan similar to what took place (the bullet-proof vest with fake blood that Yukiko had, her presence at all in the first place, the fact that Akai had a grenade ready at hand.) It's just that Gosho has left us in the dark about what exactly Conan and Akai were planning in the background, and I'm hopeful that he's only done that so far because the audience at the time couldn't yet know that Okiya and Conan were working together behind the scenes, and that he'll give us more details later on. Of course, it could simply be that Gosho feels that he left sufficient enough clues to piece together what was going on behind the scenes and so won't be revealing anything else.

I can imagine that Akai kept his Okiya persona so that Haibara throughout the case can recognize him, which would therefore make his job easier if he ever needed to recover her from anywhere.

I'm just glad that Gosho ensured that KID's involvement in the case mattered more than just him showing up conveniently to fake Shiho's death- it is in many ways the primary reason the plot is where it is today. Hopefully Conan will know better than to rely on a thief who has no experience with the Black Organization again in the future :P
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Jd-
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Jd- »

Kudo Shinchi wrote:Was their original plan always to use KID to fake Shiho's death, or was it something else and they simply threw together something different at the last second when they discovered KID was on the train? Besides, the plan to fake Shiho's death in its final form involved KID's presence as well as Vermouth's act of loading the carriage with explosives, variables that no one could have foreseen with absolute certainty. There are hints scattered throughout the case that they had a plan similar to what took place (the bullet-proof vest with fake blood that Yukiko had, her presence at all in the first place, the fact that Akai had a grenade ready at hand.)
Yeah, this is the thing--apart from Akai's appearance itself--that baffles me most about the whole incident and has all this time. There's just something weird about how this new plan came together out of nowhere as soon as they involved Kid. Akai boarded the train with the grenade ready, so... what was the original plan, exactly? We can definitely speculate, but I think the best thing Gosho can do for this is a series of flashbacks showcasing exactly what was said between Conan and Akai-as-Okiya and Yukiko as they were plotting after meeting up on the train/talking over their transceivers. We really need to see them talking about this incident, in particular, because there are some things that need clearing up for it to be taken completely seriously as a "plan" and not just "something that happened".
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by PhantomWriter »

Jd- wrote:
Kudo Shinchi wrote:Was their original plan always to use KID to fake Shiho's death, or was it something else and they simply threw together something different at the last second when they discovered KID was on the train? Besides, the plan to fake Shiho's death in its final form involved KID's presence as well as Vermouth's act of loading the carriage with explosives, variables that no one could have foreseen with absolute certainty. There are hints scattered throughout the case that they had a plan similar to what took place (the bullet-proof vest with fake blood that Yukiko had, her presence at all in the first place, the fact that Akai had a grenade ready at hand.)
Yeah, this is the thing--apart from Akai's appearance itself--that baffles me most about the whole incident and has all this time. There's just something weird about how this new plan came together out of nowhere as soon as they involved Kid. Akai boarded the train with the grenade ready, so... what was the original plan, exactly? We can definitely speculate, but I think the best thing Gosho can do for this is a series of flashbacks showcasing exactly what was said between Conan and Akai-as-Okiya and Yukiko as they were plotting after meeting up on the train/talking over their transceivers. We really need to see them talking about this incident, in particular, because there are some things that need clearing up for it to be taken completely seriously as a "plan" and not just "something that happened".
Unless Akai always carries that sort of weaponry around on his person? ...That says something about him, admittedly. :P
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Kor »

Jd- wrote: Also: Kid's involvement there is still my least favorite event in the entire canon.
Join the club.
I expressed my disdain to that whole thing since the day it happened.
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Chekhov MacGuffin
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Shadow x Akai Shuubaru x Chekhov cbox brainstorm

Post by Chekhov MacGuffin »

I figured this convo summary was good enough to post.

Part 1
The initial topic was "what Amuro needs to do to prove Okiya is Akai." We decided that Amuro would need to play a psychological game to see if he could trip up Okiya into doing or saying something that suggested he was Akai. Going in swinging was unlikely to help him, especially if Akai could overpower him. Forcing out characteristic phrases like his final lines to Kir using ironic process theory, or exploiting habits like handedness, hands in pockets, or his eyes are fair game. Amuro could also aim for a knowledge test on topics like Sera, the Mouri Murder case, or even the Mystery Train if Okiya' name was on the roster.
Ultimately though we seemed to reach a collective realization that Amuro going over to Okiya's place was giving an advantage to Okiya and not likely going to get the best results. It was also dangerous; Akai or Conan might attack him, which brings us to part 2...

Part 2
How is Amuro going to defend himself against Akai and Conan? What he needs is a dead man's switch. That is Amuro needs to inform Okiya in a way that only Akai can understand that if something happens to him, someone will die for it. Conan used a somewhat similar strategy against Vermouth with his heartbeat-linked broadcaster. The perfect targets for this would be Masumi or the Mouri agency, using bombs that go off after a certain time has passed or something similar. The real beauty is that if Okiya tried to act to protect them, then Amuro would know for sure that Okiya was Akai because he relayed the threat in a way only Akai would understand. Amuro could also try to rope Conan in as well in order to manipulate him because Conan has shown himself to be vulnerable to manipulation before.

While Amuro can play Okiya's game at the Kudo house for a while to see if he can score an easy victory, he can shift the field to something more favorable to him by using threats that require Okiya to have the knowledge of Akai or the fake death plan in order to understand and thwart them. Even better, Bourbon could set up psychological traps within the threat that would trick Conan or whoever else into favoring certain actions because they instantly come to mind after having done the fake death trick.

Tl;dr Amuro wants Okiya and Conan to play a special game.
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Re: Shadow x Akai Shuubaru x Chekhov cbox brainstorm

Post by Jd- »

Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Tl;dr Amuro wants Okiya and Conan to play a special game.
Spoiler:
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Re: Shadow x Akai Shuubaru x Chekhov cbox brainstorm

Post by PhantomWriter »

Jd- wrote:
Chekhov MacGuffin wrote:Tl;dr Amuro wants Okiya and Conan to play a special game.
Spoiler:
Image
Oh, goodie... (I hate the Saw series; it's not scary, it's just so unsettling and torture porn, IMO.)

Well, with the deadman switch, I'm thinking the way it's set up would be a double design. The first part being that others in the Organization would be alerted immediately if his heart rate falls under a certain amount, he dies, wires are disconnected, etc. The second part being that whatever trap Amuro may have set up being sprung by the switch.

I'm particularly concerned for Ran and Kogoro. Even though Masumi is a target that would be much more useful in terms of exploitation and playing off of Akai's emotions, Amuro wouldn't necessarily know where she lives. On top of that, with Mini Char living with her and the overall style of their gadget expertise, I doubt he'd be able to set up something directly where they're at, not without it being immediately detected. It would more likely hurt random people instead of his intended target, I'm guessing.

Meanwhile, Ran and Kogoro are currently unprotected and Amuro has access to the location. Conan is over at Agasa's place with Haibara and has been there since the night before discussing plans, according to Haibara's thoughts. The FBI, as far as we know, are unaware of the situation. We don't know for sure if Yuusaku or Yukiko are involved yet. Subaru is currently dealing with Amuro. There is nobody currently there to guard the place. And Amuro has an advantage of having access to the agency, due to being Kogoro's apprentice. We also know both Kogoro and Ran are there at the time of the meeting of Subaru and Amuro...
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by Paix672 »

I'm not exactly sure why Amuro didn't exploit Conan's misunderstanding about his allegiance -- that would have been strategically more viable to actually catch Akai off guard and ambush him. But since Amuro flat-out told Conan he's wrong, that gave them enough time to retaliate. He also knows that he can't trust Vermouth entirely, so I'm really curious to know what he has up his sleeve.

Also, Vermouth got herself stuck between a rock and a hard place. Confirming Akai's death (or the lack of thereof in this case) was not worth risking her agenda being potentially exposed. Amuro has figured out that Conan was the reason behind her backtracking, and given his connection to the Miyanos, it probably wouldn't take him too long before he figures things out.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by PhantomWriter »

I also don't understand it, Paix. It would be more advantageous if he were Org., to do that, instead of having him panic in the hopes of bringing out Akai. Too much risk that he'll evade Amuro enough to warn Akai or come up with a plan with Akai to trap him. That's part of the reason why I'm wondering if the 'very deep double agent' theory is correct.

Also, someone over at Baidu's discussing how Subaru appears to have his right hand resting on his cheek instead of his left hand and talking about handedness. But that's normal for him, considering their comparison to the panel at the end of the cabin case just before the mess with the mystery train. Meanwhile, when he picks up the phone, he uses his left hand and opens the door with his right hand. The door being opened with the right hand is expected, due to the way the door swings and where the doorknob is. But, in the delivery case, we see Subaru pick up that same receiver with his left hand.

So I decided to look something up regarding crossing legs. Subaru here crosses his legs right over left in this panel, which is often found in right-handed people, not left-handed people. But, at the same time, considering where he's sitting on the couch and where the TV is, crossing left over right would angle his body away from the TV.

I'm getting mixed signals right now and I don't like it.
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Re: Discussion Thread: Detective Conan Files 894-???: Scarlet Series!

Post by irishock »

PhantomWriter wrote: I'm getting mixed signals right now and I don't like it.
It's done on purpose.
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